Great Japanese Battleships...

I went back and found the page ... I tend to agree with your assessment.

A long argued topic, I think we covered it in this thread a few pages ago...

As for kits of Prinz Eugen in 1/350, your only choice at present is the Iron Shipwrights resin kit. It's about $325 though.

There have been rumors that Trumpeter might come out with one...but I've heard nothing on the particular front.

Jeff

Does anyone have a 1/350 kit of Prinz Eugen? She was considered a lucky ship and was in a few significant actions, but you don't see so much about her as Scharnhorst, Gneisnau or Graff Spee. I read an article years ago that claimed photos from the Hood sinking proved that Prinz Eugen, not Bismark, actually scored the hits that sunk Hood, but the Brits and Germans preferred to make it Bismark's kill for assorted reasons. Anyone ever hear that one before?

Nah, most of the radioactivity from the ships is gone. My buddy told me, that the divemaster at Bikini told the group that 'you'll get more radiation from talking on a cell phone while standing in the middle of Times Square in NY'.

They do have restrictions on eating anything from the island. It's the old food triangle thing...the radiation is in the soil, which is absorbed by the plants and ground water, the plants are eaten by animals, and then the animals are eaten by people...so I'm told that everything on the island is flown in, water, food, etc.

Jeff

& maybe glow at night !!!

You nailed it Bosco...it's ironic, that the modern battleships were running around with the carriers, and it was the old ladies from Pearl Harbor that slugged it out at Surigao Strait.

Have a friend of mine who dove on the Nagato a couple of years ago at Bikini. I have a sliver of rust from her and one from Prinz Eugen's hull. About the size of a 50 cent piece, but still very cool.

At low tide, most of Prinz Eugen's stern sits out of the water. The dive boats usually tie off on her prop shaft.

That's one of my goals in life, to dive at Bikini and Truk....

Jeff

Does my memory serve me right that at the surrender ceremony was the only time either the MO and NJ saw a Japanese battleship which was the Nagato at anchor because of a lack of fuel oil?

Actually, it was his daughter, Miss Margaret. :-)

J

Jeff,
When I was a military-beat newspaper reporter, I did an interview with a fellow who was on Missouri through the whole war. He recited the story of how everyone in the fleet thought New Jersey would be the signature ship, but, indeed, Truman gave the order that it be Missouri. Plus, and my memory is a bit faulty, too, wasn't it his wife who broke the champagne at Missouri's launch?

Yup, he attended the Pingry School for Boys (a high-falutin' prep school), and also has the disctinction of being the oldest man to receive his naval aviators wings. If I remember correctly, he was 57 when he went through the program at Pensacola.

He was originally on destroyers, but when offered command of the Saratoga (I'm reaching here, it's been awhile) he insisted that he understand every aspect of carrier operations, so he got himself not only trained as a pilot, he got himself carrier qualified too. Quite a guy, it's too bad that history blames him for leaving the invasion force at Leyte Gulf. All he knew was that a Japanese carrier force was heading south from the north, and it was his job to get the carriers...no one expected the Southern and Center Forces to pop out from behind Leyte. Anyway, I digress...

Jeff

i didnt realize Adm Bull Halsey was from NJ...Elizabeth is only a n hour and a half from my house.thats cool to know.

Actually, there's a great story here....

Back in 1997, I was the Director of the NJ Aviation Hall of Fame and Museum. One of our inductees that year was Adm. Halsey, who was born and grew up in Elizabeth, NJ. In my conversations with his son, he mentioned that his father had intended for the surrender documents to be signed about the USS New Jersey, which was his flagship, but Harry S. Truman, from Missouri, ordered the surrender to be signed aboard the Missouri instead.

When you compare the condition of the two ships at the time, New Jersey had just come out refit at Puget Sound and arrived at Guam in August of 1945 as Adm. Spruance's Flagship. Missouri on the other hand, had been in combat since February of '45 with no refits or paint work. When you look at photos of the two, NJ was much prettier than MO was at the time, but I guess that really didn't matter to old Harry S.

Jeff

Butchy mentions great battleships like the Missouri and New Jersey. These are Iowa class battleships. The USS Iowa took Roosevelt to several of his overseas conferences with the allied leaders. If Roosevelt had lived, the treaty might have been signed on the USS Iowa rather than the USS Missouri (Truman's home state).

I don't know that Vietnam is such a good analogy. Regardless of the conduct of operations, the political arena is where the outcome was decided. It was fully two years after the withdrawal of American forces that Saigon fell. The only Americans driven out by the enemy were embassy guards, diplomats and journalists.

You only partially correct about air power is the way to win wars Exhibit A is Vietnam Any question about who had complete air control? Boots on the ground wins wars but air power allows the boots to increase their chances of winning When it comes to the large number of battleships and other ships also lost to air power no question he who rules the sky wins In WW 2 battleships were white elephants from day one but I love them dispite that fact Some day some one will figure out how to defeat air power (space power/lasers ?) and future generations will speak about how wonderful the aircraft carriers of 1940 thru 20?? were

Air power is the way to win a war!

Andy makes a very strong and valid point...no ship, even the mighty Iowas, could have survived the concentrated aerial attacks that the US brought to the Yamatos. The loss of these ships was truly the end of the era of the battleship, because it was realized that although these ships (and all the others as well) could not survive concentrated aerial attacks.

When you look at the world's battleships...here's something to ponder. This list is just off the top of my head, so I may have missed a few...I decided to add Scharnhorst and Gneisenau to the list since they could be considered small battleships (at 32,000 tons).

Prince of Wales - sunk by aircraft
Repulse - sunk by aircraft
Yamato - sunk by aircraft
Musashi - sunk by aircraft
Tirpitz - sunk by aircraft
Bismarck - wounded by aircraft, subseqently sunk as a result.
Arizona - sunk by aircraft
California - sunk by aircraft (raised and returned to service)
Oklahoma - sunk by aircraft
Tennessee - sunk by aircraft (raised and returned to service)
West Virginia - sunk by aircraft (raised and returned to service)
Hiei - sunk by aircraft
Haruna - sunk by aircraft
Ise - sunk by aircraft
Hyuga - run aground after being attacked by aircraft
Littorio - sunk by aircraft (still on the bottom in 1943 when Italy left the war)
Conte Di Cavour - sunk by aircraft (raised and returned to service)
Caio Duilio - sunk by aircraft (raised and returned to service)
Roma - sunk by aircraft dropped Fritz X bomb
Gneisenau - bombed by aircraft after hitting a mine, scuttled as a result.

Now we look at battleships sunk by submarines

HMS Barham - sunk by U-331
HMS Royal Oak - sunk by U-47
IJN Kongo - sunk by USS Sealion

And finally, battleships sunk by direct gunnery contact

HMS Hood
Bismarck
Scharnhorst
Yamashiro
Kirishima

It's pretty obvious when you look at the losses, that the era of the battleship was over. It is fortunate for the Allies that the Japanese and Germans were incapable of launching several hundred aircraft in a strike against shipping, as the US fleet was capable of doing by 1944.

So...did I forget any other ships??

FSM just bought my article, "The Greatest Battleship Never Built." If you want to see a herkin' big dreadnaught, wait 'til this kitbash hits the newstands. It's bigger and more heavily armed than even the Yamato/Musashi ships.

Yah.. Tora Tora Tora! (Movie on the Pearl Harbour attack)

QUOTE: Originally posted by Bill Clarke I always liked the Alaska class BC's, too bad they never got to see much combat (though if someone has informatioon to the contray I'll stand corrected)

They saw quite a bit of action as fast carrier escorts, and - IIRC - were prized for their heavy AA armament. When the Franklin left the combat zone after her catastrophic meeting with a kamikaze, she was escorted by both Alaska and Guam.

They also teamed up to bombard a Japanese Radar installation near Okinawa during that campaign.

but than the japanese ships weren't caught by surprise like the americans at pearl harbor

umustb
Wanted some picture's of the USS Enterprise

opps wrong Enterprise



at least most on the steel from CV-6 went into CVN-65
as a note on those two battleships, the US Navy used more aircraft against them, then the Japanese used to attack Pearl Harbor

I always liked the Alaska class BC's, too bad they never got to see much combat (though if someone has informatioon to the contray I'll stand corrected) and what of the Japanese ships they were meant to take on ?. and imagine if the Montana's had been built and launched.............................................. makes me feel all warm and fuzzy.

Washington & So. Dakota vs. Kirishima + cruisers? Pearl Harbor battleships at Leyte Gulf? There is evidence out there.
G.L.

True true, but the US navy did put a lot more thought into their water tight compartmentation than any other navy. Jeff Herne pointed out and I agree that it is hard to pin point the death blow on either of Japans super dreadnaughts. As far as concentrated air attack, anybody remember the fight off Okinawa? Granted they were not coordinated torpedo attacks like the U.S. Navy's aerial attacks on the aforementioned, but a 10,000lb flying bomb can be effective against any warship. Several USN BBs were hit by Kamakaze with minor damage. In all honesty, every class BB had their stregnths and weaknesses. As with any engagement, I believe it would have flat come down to luck and training and courage of the individual commanders and crews.

Actually, the Allies learned fairly early on in WW II that capital ships without aircover and facing large numbers of enemy aircraft, were not going to survive. Do the names HMS Prince of Wales and HMS Repulse sound familiar?

QUOTE: Originally posted by adamwehn I'd have to agree, a great ship is one that survives an engagement to tell the story.

I would certainly agree that the North Carolinas, South Dakotas, and Iowas were great battleships in different ways. I also tend to think that the Yamatos perhaps have a slightly inflated reputation.

However, regardless of the relative merits of one class to another, I think the fact that all ten US fast battleships survived the war intact, while the two Japanese superbattleships did not is totally irrelevant. The ferocity and concentration of the air attacks that sank the two Yamatos was something the US battleships never had to face. The US battleships' anti-aircraft defenses were probably superior to that of the Yamatos, but that superiority would not have allowed any of them to survive the attacks that the Yamatos did not.

The fact is that any WWII ship forced to deal with the concentration of airpower that faced Musashi and later Yamato, would have gone to the bottom just the same.

Andy

..it is just amazing to put the two ships side by side: Yamato and Missouri and imagine, what a ship to ship battle would have been.
Also to look at how the two nations engineers had solved the same problems of weight, armour, caliber, speed etc.
Yamato actually did well and survived into 1945 and was involved in more action than I thought before I started to study it. One of the great benefits of scale modelling: You have to get to know the "object"
rgds
Ole from Denmark

Anyone got pictures of CV-65? I would love to get my hands on one of those 1:350 Tamiya ones... they look pretty darn cool. =)