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Revell 1/150 USS United States

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  • Member since
    April 2009
Posted by rgmn41 on Monday, May 25, 2009 9:06 PM

Hi again,

I do this from work so there isn't always enough time to respond. What I meant to say is that the BULWARKS are planked in the waist area (as per 1927). The waist hatch itself is the same on both the 1/150 and the 1/220 but much better detailed on the IMAI model. I think the Revell 1/196 modelI is the least accurate as there are other grave errors on that ship as well.

I have the "Anatomy of a Ship" book and the waist hatch as drawn in that book doesn't match ANY of the plastic models. As drawn in the book, it appears to be open a full frame longer in the direction of the bow. The changes the appearance of the deck and locates the galley stack further forward. Also, the ladders down to the gun deck are of a different configuration. None of it makes sense when you match up existing models with the drawings. The deck beams are not equally spaced in the drawings but appear to be in current photos. The beams across the hatch on the "USS President" as drawn by the British are also not of equal spacing. The hatch opening also appears to have been wider at one time. Does anyone have the actual dimensions of that hatch the way she is now? I'd run down and measure it myself but I'm in San Diego!  I have actually done that on the HMS Surprise/Rose both here and the tank model (Fox Mexico) so if anyone needs any measurements on her, let me know.

Chris

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Monday, May 25, 2009 10:44 PM

Plastic kit manufacturers have a long history of screwups regarding the scales of sailing ship kits.  I long ago reached the point where I quit paying attention to the scales listed on the boxes.

I haven't actually measured the old (1956) Revell kit, but I think the scale of it is in fact 1/192.  That's how it's listed in Dr. Graham's fine book, Remembering Revell Model Kits (which, admittedly, lists some questionable scales for other sailing ship kits).  1/192 is the equivalent of 1/16"=1', which is a fairly standard ship modeling scale.  This kit was Revell's very first sailing ship; my theory (for which I have no hard evidence whatsoever) is that the designers deliberately chose that scale for the kit and designed a box to fit it - thereby, perhaps inadvertently, starting the infamous "make-the-model-fit-the-box" policy when they released the next two kits in the series, the Bounty and the Santa Maria.  (I know for a fact that the Bounty is on the oddball scale of 1/110.  Dr. Graham says the Santa Maria is 1/90 - but the crew figures in those two kits quite obviously are on the same scale.  One can quickly get a headache trying to sort all this stuff out.)

The Monogram kit with the one-piece hull was originally issued long before the company merged with Revell.  Those two companies were semi-vicious competitors for quite a long time.  (In Dr. Graham's book about the history of Monogram he tells an interesting story of two 1/48-scale B-17 kits.  Revell's B-17F appeared shortly after Monogram's B-17G.  Most parts from the two are interchangeable - down to the locator pins and holes - except that the Revell parts are very slightly smaller. Styrene shrinks slightly as it cools; it was perfectly obvious that Revell had based its kit on Monogram parts.  According to Dr. Graham, one of Monogram's executives wrote one of Revell's executives a very nasty letter, but chose not to take legal action.)

Back in the late 1920s, when the Constitution was undergoing restoration prior to being put on public exhibition, the Navy published a set of plans for her.  Those drawings were based more-or-less on her then-current configuration - including the raised bulwarks, the relatively narrow main hatch, etc.  I think the designers of the 1956 Revell kit based it on those plans, with one big exception:  for some reason or other they got interested in the Andrew Jackson figurehead, and created a beautiful miniature version of it to replace the simple billet head the ship actually had at the time.  It's unlikely that the real ship ever looked exactly like that; she almost certainly didn't during her years of active service.  The naval officers who made the decisions regarding the restoration weren't professional historians, and they made some judgment calls that would be regarded as near-heretical today.  (For example:  they found several different sets of spar dimensions from various dates in the ship's career.  So they averaged all of them and had a new set of spars built accordingly.)

The Anatomy of the Ship volume has taken some pretty brutal criticism in a number of quarters.  My opinion of it isn't as low as some people's, but I have to say I find it disappointing in a number of respects.  The author apparently didn't spend much (if any) time examining the actual ship, and he missed several important sources of information (most notably, perhaps, the old "Isaac Hull Model" in Salem).  One example of the book's weaknesses:  the framing plan on pages 60 and 61 is pure nonsense.  There are a number of good, clear (and easily accessible) photos of the ship's hull with the planking stripped off; they show that her frames just plain weren't arranged like that.  I really like some of the drawings in that book (the reconstructions of the transom, for instance), but when it comes to such things as hatch dimensions I'm not inclined to trust it.

There are two other good sources of Constitution plans - both of them reconstructions of her War of 1812 configuration.  The first is the set George Campbell drew for the Smithsonian in (I think) either the late fifties or the early sixties.  That set was the basis of the 1/96-scale Revell kit (and the smaller, "quick-build" version that was based on it).  I've heard some vague criticisms of these drawings, but I'm not aware of any major, indisputable errors in them.  The other set is the one published by Bluejacket Shipcrafters.  The individual responsible for it was not a draftsman of Mr. Campbell's training or experience, but he made the project a labor of love and spent an enormous amount of time on it.  (He also, as I understand it, consulted extensively with Capt. Tyrone Martin, one-time commanding officer of the ship and probably the reigning expert on just about every aspect of her.  Captain Martin's book is conspicuously absent from the bibliography of the Anatomy of the Ship volume.)

It seems remarkable that the details of such a famous ship - and such a popular model subject - are still so hard to pin down.  But such seems to be the case - and I suspect it will be for the foreseeable future.  I continue to hope that, in view of the critical reception the Anatomy book received, Conway will publish a revised and corrected edition of it some day.  But even if that happens I suspect the results won't be accepted as "definitive."

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    March 2004
Posted by USS UNITED STATES on Friday, September 16, 2011 6:22 PM

1. I understand the Old Waggon had a roundhouse/poop that is missing on the kit... any way to replicate this?  I can send you a copy of THE 1/8" =1'-0" AND YOU CAN MAKE IT TO YOUR WORKING SCALE TO ADD IT TO YOUR MODEL. i AM STEERING EVERYONE AWAY FROM PURCHASING THIS MODEL. wITHOUT THE Poop Deck it is not the USS UNITED STATES. 

2. Those plastic shrouds/ratlines are nasty... how do you rig better ones in a scale this small? I would make my own ratlines. Running them from the belaying pins, up through the masts, and down to the other side of the ship. Then make your cross ratlines with a spot of glue to hold them in place.

 3. What diameter of rigging line would work in this scale? I'm not impressed with the thread that came with the kit. You would need to guess at the gauge of the threading and then string it accordingly. Black for standing rigging, tan for running. 

4. Any suggestions on black hull paint that is dark enough to look correct but still light enough to show weathering effects (washes, dry-brushing)? Black is black. Copper is copper. The copper can be streaked with a light green. Be sure the stripe on the side of the hull is yellow and not white.

5. Is it worth replanking a model this size with actual wood strips? If not, what's your best technique for making the plastic deck look like wood?  No. It's not worth the aggrivation, especially at this scale.

Compliments of USS UNITED STATES Foundation; Ed. Zimmerman, Jr. F, P, CEO USSUNITEDSTATES@Yahoo.com

  • Member since
    March 2004
Posted by USS UNITED STATES on Friday, September 16, 2011 6:34 PM

You can refer to the USS UNITED STATES Foundation; ATTN: Ed. Zimmerman, Jr.; Founder, President, and CEO.

I would stay away from the 1:150 scale Revell model. It is not the USS UNITED STATES. Kill a rumor about the USS UNITED STATES. Contact this Foundation. It's been around over 33 years.

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Sunday, September 18, 2011 12:46 PM

USS UNITED STATES,

How about the old 1/96 scale kit of the USS United States by Revell?  It is clearly based upon the USS Constitution kit, but how inaccurate is it?  Can your foundation make any specific recommendations for improving that kit?

Thanks!

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    June 2006
  • From: Carmichael, CA
Posted by Carmike on Monday, September 19, 2011 1:57 PM

Folks:

I had a few minutes this morning and was able to dig the old Revell "1:192" kit out of the closet.

According to my reprint of Chapelle's "The American Sailing Navy," the U.S.S. Constitution, as originally designed, measured 175' bp ("between perpendiculars'), as far as I can tell, the kit hull measures 9.875" bp, meaning 17.72' per inch, and a scale of 1:212.6.

At 1:150 (12.5' per inch) the length bp on the model should be 14" - and the Revell / Monogram U.S.S. United States is not even close to that.  Leaving out the other problems with the kit, there is something very wrong about advertising a kit at a scale that is grossly incorrect, leading the buyer to believe that they are purchasing a much larger kit and I would hope that the advertising is updated (not going to hold my breath though).

BTW - they are not the only culprits.  "Lindberg" (or whomever owns the rights to the name these days) advertises their "Captain Kidd" (aka Wappen von Hamburg) as being 1:132 and the kit's actual scale is clearly much smaller than that.  I would suspect that the rest of their kits are also incorrectly scaled.

Mike

 

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