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My U-96 DAS BOOT in 1/72 Locked

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  • Member since
    September 2008
Posted by lingcod9 on Tuesday, September 9, 2008 9:05 AM

As great as this diorama is,(and I agree to the degree of skill), I'm compelled to correct some of the posts that it's Art. Fine Art especially. Models, wildlife postage stamps, or musuem dioramas are not Art.

All of the posters could do the same if given the same materials, dedication, and effort. This isn't intented to downgrade or belittle you work in any way. I think it's fantastic. I'm just picking out a small semantic thorn. I expect you will understand. Great job.

  • Member since
    January 2008
  • From: Tulsa, OK
Posted by acmodeler01 on Tuesday, September 9, 2008 10:57 AM
 lingcod9 wrote:

As great as this diorama is,(and I agree to the degree of skill), I'm compelled to correct some of the posts that it's Art. Fine Art especially. Models, wildlife postage stamps, or musuem dioramas are not Art.

All of the posters could do the same if given the same materials, dedication, and effort. This isn't intented to downgrade or belittle you work in any way. I think it's fantastic. I'm just picking out a small semantic thorn. I expect you will understand. Great job.

At the risk of becoming known as a jerk, taking this post off topic, detracting from the build, feeding a troll, and really against my better judgement, I am going to say this: You are full of crap.

Models, wildlife postage stamps, and museum dioramas, are all art.
Art has many definitions, one of which is "the products of human creativity" and another is "any of various creative forms of expression". Many definitions include reference to "things of beauty", and since beauty is in the eye of the beholder, there is an infinate list of items and things that can be considered art.
Case and point is "No. 5, 1948" By Jackson Pollock, which sold for $140 million in 2006. Personally I think it looks like a kindergartener dribbled paint on the floor, nevertheless it is art.
To say that what we build and display here is not art is insulting to say the least. I take extreme offense when someone tells me that what I create is not art, and I doubt there are many people here that will disagree with me.

  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Portsmouth, RI
Posted by searat12 on Tuesday, September 9, 2008 12:58 PM
I think I agree..... While just about anyone can build a model straight out of the box with a bit of care, the level that some people bring to their work can only be called art!  Skillful shadings of paint, weathering of the subject and the whole composition of a diorama is every bit as difficult as producing a high-quality portrait in oil paint on canvas when done effectively.  And some modellers are true masters, in every sense of the word!   This legacy and artistic genre goes back many years, right back to the 'Navy Board Models' of the 18th century, some of which were produced for and treasured by Kings and Princes, and are still so valued today......
  • Member since
    February 2006
  • From: Boston
Posted by Wilbur Wright on Tuesday, September 9, 2008 6:03 PM

Then I guess you've never been to the Museum of Modern Art!

 

lingcod9 can post that under free speech, however if I responded in kind I would be banned from this forum.

 

Why would anyone waste ten seconds of their life posting that on a modelers forum? 

  • Member since
    November 2007
  • From: North Carolina
Posted by u-boater on Friday, September 12, 2008 2:01 PM

There's nothing I can say about this that hasn't already been said...

STUNNING.AWE-INSPIRING.BREATH TAKING.

Gentlemen,make no mistake about it.What we do is an art.We build,improvise,detail and pour a lot of time,effort,and resources into something that is an artistic expression,and an extension of ourselves.

It's pieces like this that not only display the creativity of the builder,but pay homage to the men and machines of that era.

www.resinilluminati.com
  • Member since
    February 2005
  • From: Australia
Posted by rokket on Saturday, September 20, 2008 3:33 AM
yes, all well said (except for linga - interesting thought, but anything that takes creativity and in the end has expression, would kinda fall under "art").
AMP - Accurate Model Parts Fabric Flags, AM Uboat Goodies & More http://amp.rokket.biz/
  • Member since
    September 2008
Posted by lingcod9 on Friday, October 17, 2008 8:12 AM

ooooo, a troll, huh? Full of crap? Pretty harsh stuff.  

Let me begin by saying to Andy, and anyone else that may have misunderstood my first post. The model, and in particular the water, is certainly the best I've ever seen. If smells could somehow be included in that diorama, I'd probably be seasick.

I've worked with just about every other art medium, but currently are doing ship models, including them in some type of diorama. In this respect I fully recognize the great accomplishment of the model. (Frankly, I don't want to know how the water was done. Isn't that the point of doing? Though, if a competent video were released, I'd certainly pay attention to it.)

I brought it up the issue about art, not to lessen the quality of Andy's work, but not to cheapen the word either. I suppose it's a bad way to try to educate or enlighten. I thought I made myself clear and had no intention of offending.

Art is tough to define, it always has been. It exists on so many levels. The point I was trying to make was simply one of semantics, and of the care-free use of the term today. Art isn't just anything you do, no matter how well. And a person doesn't become an artist just because they're very skilled at whatever they're doing. As a viewer, a person can like whatever they want. BUT, they must understand it is just that, something they enjoy. They may think of it as Art, they can call it Art, but only to themselves.

Using the words, Art and Artist, are testimonial proofs that the subject exists, and begin to make the distinction about what it is.

"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder." Unfortunately that phrase has stuck with many people. It is a valid statement but that's not the total criteria used in judging or defining art. Since beauty, only exists in the individuals mind, there is no reference point there. Furthermore, the subject in Art isn't always pleasing, or recognizable. We can't use this for a reliable method.

SO . . . WHAT IS IT?

* Primary it is a statement of an idea.

* Fundamentally it doesn't serve any other purpose. ‘‘Art for Art's sake.''

* The materials used are usually in their rawest state. This allows the artist to exercise the greatest amount of control over the piece.

* The idea and execution of that idea should be original.

* The artist should remain in control of the materials throughout the entire evolution of the work.

Despite those conditions, it is not the responsibility of the artist to define, or explain the piece, to the viewer. Of course, most artists want their art to be understood, and usually take steps to achieve this. But it is the viewer that must make the adjustment to the piece. It is their responsibility to understand this new object confronting them. Like any unknown item one may encounter, they are responsible to learn about it. And to learn as objectively as possible. This is especially true for art. In fact, it is vital to the whole process. So much is missed if you judge something with a closed mind. The piece, the artist, and the viewer, all suffer.

One of the posts had a derogatory comment about the art of Jackson Pollack. The person was trying to illustrate the lack of aesthetics simply by way of what they saw. And by what they understood about the art. Undoubtedly very little of either. Then they compared it to something a six-year child might do. Once again, they must be reminded about the fundamentals as stated above.

 

 

 

 

However, a statement like that commits another grievous offence. To the child. Children, when given the freedom to express themselves through art, produce very satisfying results. Usually without knowing what they've done. They are not constricted by the materials (drawing on walls), are not concerned about what it's supposed to look like, how it might make more money if this or that were changed, or if the idea is clear to the viewer at all. A very pure medium for growing some very good art.

One often times asks the child, ‘‘ What is it?'' A big no-no. This is one of the initial phases that brings doubts and kindles awareness and brings doubts into a child's mind. Getting older, seeing how things appear different usually finish the job. ( in this aspect, we're all born as artist). Dig, so far?

The same goes for art done by primitive people. And I DON'T mean people that have no formal art training. If you're still following this, art isn't just the manipulation of materials. IT IS THE IDEA. Pure, undiluted, and unconscious. A near impossible state, but the only one worth attempting.

(by the way, I'm not a fan of Jackson Pollack , but I can tell you the reasons why that is.)

On the other hand, I don't read Shakespear. But it's my own ignorance that is to blame. I cannot truthfully say, ‘‘ Shakespear is just crap. He bunched together a lot of goofy words because he really didn't know how to write. ''

I can think that, but it would only be true for me.

I have other authors I like better. But that's all it amounts to, something I like. The key word is like. It's my loss in not reading deeper into Shakespeare. Without some extra effort, Shakespear isn't easy to read and understand. But that isn't his fault, or his responsibility. If he had wrote his stories simpler, like a romance novel, the whole effect would suffer.

Why is this? Because of the limitations of that writing style. The same holds true for all the other classes of art.

Rock, by it's very nature and definition, is more limited than classical music. (but it is my preference and I accept this aspect of it).

Graffiti will never produce a Mona Lisa. (unless the intension , materials and desire of the person changes).

Poetry comparable to Keats, Tennyson, or Longfellow will never be produced by Rap (artist?) for the same reasons. I know they're totally different things, but they both use words to convey their meaning. The reason I can't stand Rap isn't because I'm offended by the language, only by the lack of some imagery. It's pretty much all the same. We'll never come across something like The Raven by a rapper, unless the entire format is changed.

A product commonly known as Paint-by-Number, also shares this limitation. One can only go so far with a painting like this, no matter how carefully you stay within the lines. (The only way to improve this method of painting is breaking away from it. Sound like another contradiction? The improvement is the pure, ideal concept of freedom. Breaking away of the Paint-by-Number does not imply that the new format will be better, but it's the only chance one has. Everyone can still prefer the Paint-by-Number piece.) ANY of the modern, 20th century, artists drew exquisitely. From, Andy Warhol to Picasso. Where they branch out comes from the limitations of simply drawing something with photo-realistic accuracy.

Incidently, the Wildlife stamps are only illustrations. Skillful, yes. But (probably) not something you'll find in the Louvre, or Met. I think you know why. The restrictions imposed by the current materials and concepts.

The same is true for modeling. Scratch building brings it a step closer, and placing it in a diorama, another step. But there comes an end to what can be expressed through this format. Eventually one has to ‘switch' the media and explore the deeper ideas and questions inside them.

That is the final point I'd like to make about Art. (certainly ‘great' art as well). It goes beyond seeing. It goes into the state of awareness. Not only about what he sees, but about himself along side of those images. And about the speculations and ideas, born from a result of. It's what separates us from all the other life forms.

(Andy, I'd like to hear from you. I have a hunch you know what I mean.)

 

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Reno, NV
Posted by espins1 on Friday, October 17, 2008 10:24 AM

The definition of art according to Websters - (note item 12)

1.the quality, production, expression, or realm, according to aesthetic principles, of what is beautiful, appealing, or of more than ordinary significance.
2.the class of objects subject to aesthetic criteria; works of art collectively, as paintings, sculptures, or drawings: a museum of art; an art collection.
3.a field, genre, or category of art: Dance is an art.
4.the fine arts collectively, often excluding architecture: art and architecture.
5.any field using the skills or techniques of art: advertising art; industrial art.
6.(in printed matter) illustrative or decorative material: Is there any art with the copy for this story?
7.the principles or methods governing any craft or branch of learning: the art of baking; the art of selling.
8.the craft or trade using these principles or methods.
9.skill in conducting any human activity: a master at the art of conversation.
10.a branch of learning or university study, esp. one of the fine arts or the humanities, as music, philosophy, or literature.
11.arts,
a.(used with a singular verb) the humanities: a college of arts and sciences.
b.(used with a plural verb) liberal arts.
12.skilled workmanship, execution, or agency, as distinguished from nature.
13.trickery; cunning: glib and devious art.
14.studied action; artificiality in behavior.
15.an artifice or artful device: the innumerable arts and wiles of politics.
16.Archaic. science, learning, or scholarship.

 

Scott Espin - IPMS Reno High Rollers  Geeked My Reviews 

  • Member since
    March 2004
  • From: Spartanburg, SC
Posted by subfixer on Friday, October 17, 2008 10:28 AM
Tuche'!

I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Reno, NV
Posted by espins1 on Friday, October 17, 2008 10:42 AM

 subfixer wrote:
Tuche'!

Big Smile [:D]

Scott Espin - IPMS Reno High Rollers  Geeked My Reviews 

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Friday, October 17, 2008 11:39 AM
 espins1 wrote:

 subfixer wrote:
Tuche'!

Big Smile [:D]

SLAM !!!
  • Member since
    December 2005
  • From: Alabama USA
Posted by davew6003 on Friday, October 17, 2008 5:52 PM

 subfixer wrote:
Tuche'!

Yep....Im going to have to agree.

  • Member since
    September 2008
Posted by lingcod9 on Sunday, October 19, 2008 4:32 PM

Again, I was trying to correct the abused term of art. Hoping to make the distinction between Fine Arts and crafts. If you (all) will admit to using the term metaphorically, and not literally, then it's ended. It is the overuse of the word that I objected to. It's too important a subject to be tossed out with such carelessness.

Why don't Art schools give classes in cake decorating, Toll painting, Basket weaving, Flower Arranging, or Model making? And why don't these examples show up in the (greater) art museums of the world? There is a reason. Don't say it's snobbery!

Because the work, if they're performed with great care and dedication, ultimately end up all looking the same. The sum of their efforts become a homogenized mass that reveals no individuality. The subject matter could change, but recognizing the models of say, Jim Bauman from Dana Geraths, (choose two that are well known and very accomplished. meaning no offence) will be impossible. The distinctions and differences that show up are simply a lack of trying. Work harder and you can all do water like that. The limitations and commonality are the result of the materials and how they are manipulated.

Why don't Art schools give classes in cake decorating, Toll painting, Basket weaving, Flower Arranging, or Model making? And why don't these examples show up in the (greater) art museums of the world? There is a reason. Don't say it's snobbery!

Because the work, if they're performed with great care and dedication, ultimately end up all looking the same. The sum of their efforts become a homogenized mass that reveals no individuality. The subject matter could change, but recognizing the models of say, Jim Bauman from Dana Geraths, (choose two that are well known and very accomplished. meaning no offence) will be impossible. The distinctions and differences that show up are simply a lack of trying. Work harder and you can all do water like that. The limitations and commonality are the result of the materials and how they are manipulated.

I can read. The list, so what? You highlighted No. 12, is that your favorite, or the one you think is the best? what of the others?

Definition No.7 (see) uses art in regards to selling. So a good salesman is an artist? Anyone can copy a list, or any other, there are plenty to choose from. They have nothing to say of any significance. If that's suppose to be an answer, it's so typical in this noncommittal age.

However, for those who still don't understand and believe anything is or can be (fine)art, where does that stop?

During the middle ages, should the torturers of the Inquisitorial groups be called artist? They were highly skilled and dedicated. Not just anyone qualified for the job. They were more than just a pain loving bunch of thugs. They had to know the human body. Then, make calculations for that particular person so as to extend the victim's life for unusually long periods of time.

If you can't see the difference or understand the principles, I'm truly sorry for you. I had hopes of sparking some thought, not bantering words back and forth.

As for the other posts . . . who could respond to them? Merely the hooting grunts like a tribe of apes. Truly elegant in their simplicity, but very well articulated. Thanks for the input boys, it was really enlightening.

(and it was asked why I would spend 10 seconds of time posting).

 

 

  • Member since
    February 2006
  • From: The green shires of England
Posted by GeorgeW on Sunday, October 19, 2008 5:26 PM

 I think most people on this forum have a primary interest in models and model making rather than the personal views of someone who comes across as having a very rigid view of what constitutes art, and incidentally a very high opinion of himself, a trait that is best controlled if the wish is to persuade others to your point of view.

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Reno, NV
Posted by espins1 on Sunday, October 19, 2008 6:35 PM

lingcod9 - You clearly seem to have some sort of an agenda here, which is completely out of line with what modeling and these forums are all about.  If I could make a suggestion, you might have more luck debating "art" elsewhere.  Surely someone of your intelligence and interest in art would be able to find art forums where you can have the discussion you seem to be looking for.  If you need some help finding an art forum, I'll be more than happy to provide you with the hyperlinks.

I'm not quite sure why you feel the need to hijack a forum thread where some very outstanding modeling work was posted to be shared with others who are interested in the subject matter.  Is it perhaps because you enjoy trying to prove how smart and superior you are to others?  That may not be your intention, but that certainly is how you are coming across.  I'm not nearly as impressed with you as you seem to be with yourself.  Whistling [:-^]

Have a nice day, I have some airbrushing work to do. 

Scott Espin - IPMS Reno High Rollers  Geeked My Reviews 

  • Member since
    March 2004
  • From: Spartanburg, SC
Posted by subfixer on Sunday, October 19, 2008 6:48 PM
I can make an exact copy of some so-called "fine art" with a Mason jar, a crucifix, and a full bladder in about 25 seconds. Art is in the eye of the beholder. I'm sorry, lingcod, but some of that stuff out there genuinely stinks and is excepted as High Art by a bunch of hooting apes that think they are so sophisticated. Pollack is a good example. I have taken Humanities in college and Art Appreciation and still think it is overated. Call me a boob or an ape if you want, but it is not all Art just because some intellectual no-it-alls say so!

I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

  • Member since
    December 2005
  • From: Alabama USA
Posted by davew6003 on Sunday, October 19, 2008 10:06 PM
lingcod9- It seems to me, that you seem to think that no one else here has been to "Art School" or has a College degree in the Arts. I for one can tell you that assumtion would be wrong. I have been to "Art School" and I have an "Arts" degree as do others here. I have worked in water colors, oil, pencil, pastels, clay, etc....... I prefer building models, thats why Im here. As Scott has said please go somewhere else where your point of view will be much more accepted. Thanks.
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, October 19, 2008 10:22 PM

 subfixer wrote:
I can make an exact copy of some so-called "fine art" with a Mason jar, a crucifix, and a full bladder in about 25 seconds. Art is in the eye of the beholder. I'm sorry, lingcod, but some of that stuff out there genuinely stinks and is excepted as High Art by a bunch of hooting apes that think they are so sophisticated. Pollack is a good example. I have taken Humanities in college and Art Appreciation and still think it is overated. Call me a boob or an ape if you want, but it is not all Art just because some intellectual no-it-alls say so!

"I can make an exact copy of some so-called "fine art" with a Mason jar, a crucifix, and a full bladder in about 25 seconds."

Priceless. Wonder what our art expert will reply with to that?

  • Member since
    September 2008
Posted by Badger on Sunday, October 19, 2008 11:22 PM

Andy, being new this is the first I have seen this post.  And buddy, THAT is truly a work of art!  I might be able to do something close to that in quality, but maybe after decades of working hard at learning how to do it. Keep up the good work!

 

Lingcod9, blow me.  Now THAT would be a work of art, I'm sure! 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Monday, October 20, 2008 1:25 AM

I worked as a museum curator for three years, and have been teaching museum studies on the college level for twenty-five.  I (along with most others in the museum field) figured out a long time ago that attempting a definition of "art" is a waste of time.  Even if two people could agree on such a thing, they wouldn't have accomplished anything useful by doing so.

It's particularly pointless to attempt such a definition on a categorical basis - i.e., to assert that one form of activity constitutes "art" and another "craft."  Most of us, I suspect, would agree that Van Gogh's oil paintings are "art" and an unpainted plastic kit slapped together out of the box isn't.  But there is simply no reasonable logic by which the ship portraits (oil paintings on canvas - sometimes churned out at a rate of one every two days) by James Bard and Antonio Jacobsen can be considered "works of art" and the models of people like Harold Hahn and Donald McNarry can't.  Where does the line lie?  I don't know - and I see no point whatever in arguing about it.

The implication that scale models categorically cannot be considered "art," because every modeler working on the same subject will produce an identical result, is nonsense.  No two competent scale modelers will produce identical replicas of the same subject - just as no two competent photographers will shoot identical pictures of the same subject.  And surely no sensible person questions whether photography is an "art form."

Beyond that, I don't think Lingcod9's comments warrant the dignity of a response - and I hope this thread will get back onto its original topic. 

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Monday, October 20, 2008 8:02 AM
 jtilley wrote:

I worked as a museum curator for three years, and have been teaching museum studies on the college level for twenty-five.  I (along with most others in the museum field) figured out a long time ago that attempting a definition of "art" is a waste of time.  Even if two people could agree on such a thing, they wouldn't have accomplished anything useful by doing so.

It's particularly pointless to attempt such a definition on a categorical basis - i.e., to assert that one form of activity constitutes "art" and another "craft."  Most of us, I suspect, would agree that Van Gogh's oil paintings are "art" and an unpainted plastic kit slapped together out of the box isn't.  But there is simply no reasonable logic by which the ship portraits (oil paintings on canvas - sometimes churned out at a rate of one every two days) by James Bard and Antonio Jacobsen can be considered "works of art" and the models of people like Harold Hahn and Donald McNarry can't.  Where does the line lie?  I don't know - and I see no point whatever in arguing about it.

The implication that scale models categorically cannot be considered "art," because every modeler working on the same subject will produce an identical result, is nonsense.  No two competent scale modelers will produce identical replicas of the same subject - just as no two competent photographers will shoot identical pictures of the same subject.  And surely no sensible person questions whether photography is an "art form."

Beyond that, I don't think Lingcod9's comments warrant the dignity of a response - and I hope this thread will get back onto its original topic. 

Well put, Jtilley...Your response was, well...errr...a work of art...
  • Member since
    August 2007
  • From: The Plains of Kansas
Posted by doc-hm3 on Monday, October 20, 2008 8:19 AM
 Andy, Geogeous build! You should consider giving a tutotorial on your water, it's fantastic!Thumbs Up [tup]Thumbs Up [tup]Thumbs Up [tup]

All gave some and some gave all.

  • Member since
    November 2007
Posted by Kelly Shaw on Monday, October 20, 2008 9:07 AM

Thanks, fellas, for getting back to the point – admiring a really nice model.

If the discussion again devolves into an agrument about the definition of "art," we'll have to lock it.

Thanks.

Kelly, FSM

  • Member since
    September 2008
Posted by lingcod9 on Monday, October 20, 2008 10:38 AM
Did I not agree, and praise, the model in question? So I was actually in agreement with the rest of you. You are all too sensitive about anyone expressing a different view. Maybe all the outrage resulted because I didn't include a Smiley faces. Who drew the first blood? I'm a troll because of my view? All the way up to one of the latest responces suggesting I blow him. (notice he didn't leave an address). A completely meaningless remark (or perhaps he was serious.) No thanks, I'm not gay.   
 I didn't start the issue about art, only tried to elaborate on the term.
 There's no need for directions or resources to sites concerning art, there's no objections concerning this issue.    
  Funny how little it takes to fire some people up. You can post here-as long as you agree. Don't say anything bad. Uuuuaaa that'll hurt someones feelings. Very similar situation seen on American Idol. No one wanted to hear anything from Simon. No negitive critism please, just happy lies. Yep, the true hurts. Get some balls, or grow a backbone. Positive-politially correct people make me sick. Especially ones that are two-faced and so insecure they can't tolerate any objections. This is minor stuff, how do you handle anything serious?
  I'll concede only because expressing oneselve is indeed a waste of time. My mistake. Hopefully somebody else will avoid the same mistake.
  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Reno, NV
Posted by espins1 on Monday, October 20, 2008 11:33 AM
Man, you are so far off base in your assessment of the people here, and in your interpretation of what is wrong with your behavior here.  Too bad, you seem like a reasonably intelligent person, but you just don't "get it".  I'll be willing to bet you have a lot of confrontations like this in your everyday life as you try to "educate" others.  Just because no one buys in to your BS you tend to belittle everyone else to make you feel superior, never once considering that it is your approach that is the problem.  This would have been a very interesting topic to discuss in a separate thread.  If I could make a suggestion, you might want to look at the rules of conduct before posting on any forum.   

Scott Espin - IPMS Reno High Rollers  Geeked My Reviews 

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