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HMS Surprise- The movie version

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  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: vernon hills illinois
Posted by sumpter250 on Thursday, September 28, 2006 12:34 PM

 The Lindberg kit has what Prof. Tilley described as permanent gangways connecting the Quarterdeck, and the Forecastle deck, with no step. There seems to be a coming that runs completely around the open area. The ship's boats were stored on the gun deck, and there were gratings below them. One quick question; Did the Quarterdeck usually extend forward past the main mast? The area on the lindberg kit where the "gangways" are, is between the main and fore masts.

http://members.aol.com/batrnq/images/WSurprise.jpg  is a drawing of Surprise / L' Unite. The best I can figure is that there is a step in the spar deck to both quarterdeck, and forecastle deck, but only a slight one. Thankyou Prof. for the evolution of the spar deck. My knowledge of that era of sailing vessels is somewhat limited, my interests lying more in clippers, coastal schooners, and the workboats of New England, and the Chesapeake Bay. My only "gunship" models have been the Alexander Hamilton (Ideal), Constitution ( wood hull, unknown, dismasted by lowest bidder movers), and now Surprise (movie version).

Lead me not into temptation ..................I can find it myself

  • Member since
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  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Thursday, September 28, 2006 3:28 PM

In British and American frigates the break of the quarterdeck usually was aft of the mainmast, but there were plenty of exceptions - and I think the exceptions became more numerous as time went on.  By the time the gangway arrangement evolved into the spardeck, the oversized "hatch" formed by the break of the forecastle, the break of the quarterdeck, and the gangways occupied the space between the fore and mainmasts - as on the Lindberg kit.  I don't recall seeing a contemporary model or drawing of a spar-decked frigate whose mainmast emerged from the "big hatch."

That Admiralty drawing of the Surprise is kind of hard to decipher, because the reproduction doesn't include the deck plans.  It looks to me, though, like she had a separate, raised quarterdeck and forecastle, with the break of the quarterdeck forward of the mainmast.  (She was, after all, built in France, and probably deviated in lots of ways from typical British practice.) 

The profile view shows the major deck fixtures, including those on the main and berth decks.  (They seem a little lighter than the outlines of the ship.  That sort of feature on Admiralty drafts was often drawn in red or green ink, which has long since faded - and of course doesn't show up as such in black-and-white photos like this one.)  Notice that various pieces of deck furniture, such as ladders, capstans, and hatch coamings, on the maindeck, quarterdeck, and forecastle deckare shown clearly, but nothing projects above the bulwark in the waist.  On the quarterdeck just forward of the mainmast is what certainly looks like a side view of a railing stanchion; I think that's the railing at the break of the quarterdeck.  There's a small oblong structure near the aft end of the forecastle deck that I can't quite identify - but nothing between that and the rail stanchion.  I'm obviously not a hundred percent sure, but I think that space is the gap between the break of the quarterdeck and the break of the forecastle. 

The small steps in the rail at the top of the bulwark are decorative devices called "hances."  They generally were located in the vicinity of the breaks of the quarterdeck and forecastle.  (You can make out one of them in the photo of the Hancock model in the upper left of this page, and more clearly here:  http://www.hmsvictoryscalemodels.be/JohnTilleyHancock/photos/photo6.html ). 

Most - but not all - sets of Admiralty drawings from this period include the deck plans on separate sheets of drafting cloth.  I don't know whether the deck plans in this particular set have survived or not.  Publishers unfortunately are in the habit of reproducing only the profile and body plan portions of Admiralty drafts, but the deck plans often are at least as interesting - and just as helpful to modelers.  Without the deck plans there is, for instance, no way to tell how this ship's gangways (if any) were configured, or how wide they were.

One thing does come across loud and clear from this reproduction, though.  The real H.M.S. Surprise didn't look much like La Flore - or H.M.S. Rose.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
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  • From: Virginia
Posted by JoeRugby on Monday, October 30, 2006 8:50 AM

WOW!

The build is great and the flow of information is awesome!  There was a comment concerning representing wood grain.

Well the build inspired me and I have been attempting a modification of the Jolly Roger.  Nothing like this one though.  I built the quarter deck from balso and strapped it to the plastic deck.  Then using my contour guage I "combed" both the plastic and balsa and think I got it!

I hope to post some pictures in a seperate post once the project begins to take shape.

Check out the WW I Special Interest Group @ http://swannysmodels.com/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=WW1SIG
  • Member since
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  • From: vernon hills illinois
Posted by sumpter250 on Sunday, January 21, 2007 7:42 PM

   Time flies ! it doesn't take too long to end up on the "back page".  In between several other required projects, I've been building lower deadeye/chainplate assemblies. To check the angles for each assembly, I put together the masts from the kit, and set them in place. Oops!, back to the movie, and hit the pause button.....yup, the kit masts are far too tall. I had to remove about one inch from all the lower masts to bring them into proportion with the new hull length, and the broadside shot of the movie prop surprise. Looks like the topmasts will also have to be shortened slightly. In one of the shots, there is a crewman in the main top, leaning on the rail at the aft end of the top. Judging from the angle of the man's arms, his hands were 3' apart. From that, the width of the top comes in at about 10'. The tops in the Jolly Roger are about 1/2" too wide. The spanker in the Jolly Roger is loose footed, in the movie version Surprise it has a boom, even though it is brailled up. The outhaul runs through a sheeve in the end of the boom. I'll have to look closely again to see where the outhaul is belayed. The DVD, and a set of proportional dividers are becoming the most used tools in this build.

    In another thread, jtilley mentioned "Master and Commander" as a good sailling ship movie. There's been a lot of discussion since the last post here, and watching the movie again, I was looking for some of the details, and facts. Most all of them were there. I am pleasantly surprised by the accuracy of detail, action, and script. There's a lot that can be learned from M and C, but there are some discrepancies with published facts. Still, watching the clew lines pay out as the main course is unfurled, and the removal and storage of the forward bulkhead of the great cabin, in preparation for battle, and all the other little details makes the movie a relatively good reference for how things worked.

Lead me not into temptation ..................I can find it myself

  • Member since
    November 2003
  • From: Virginia
Posted by JoeRugby on Tuesday, July 3, 2007 12:42 PM

Mr. Sumpter,

Please post some photos!  This is a wonderful project and I am enthralled by it, so much so I have begun building sqaure rigs myself and your work is an inspiration!

Check out the WW I Special Interest Group @ http://swannysmodels.com/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=WW1SIG
  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: vernon hills illinois
Posted by sumpter250 on Tuesday, July 3, 2007 1:16 PM

Joe,

   Railimages.com changed hands, and in the process, my gallery there.....disappeared!

   Your post was here when I got done updating as many photos as I could find. There are still a couple I have to look for, and upload to photobucket, so, anything that still is a link to "railimages" won't work. I might have been able to fix this sooner, but I was negotiating with trainboard .com, in an attempt to find and restore the gallery in railimages. Unfortunately, that couldn't be done. There are several other forums where I have Railimage linked pics...It's going to be a while before all is well again.

   Progress has been temporarily halted, with Surprise. I have been busy with GCLaser(  www.gclaser.com  ). We're developing some new kit possibilities. If we are successful with the new line, I may be rather busy for an extended period of time. Talk about mixed emotions! I still have a lot of lower deadeyes to strop, and install, before I can start rigging the lower shrouds, and stays.

   It is rather interesting that on this day, as I'm "fixing" the pic problem, you should bring the thread back to the front page, cool.

Lead me not into temptation ..................I can find it myself

  • Member since
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  • From: vernon hills illinois
Posted by sumpter250 on Thursday, July 12, 2007 1:00 PM
  I finally got all the pictures uploaded to photobucket, and all the links edited, so there are pictures again!

Lead me not into temptation ..................I can find it myself

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Harrisburg, PA
Posted by Lufbery on Tuesday, July 17, 2007 8:35 PM

Sumpter,

Where are the links to the photos? Smile [:)]

 Thanks,

-Drew

Build what you like; like what you build.

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: vernon hills illinois
Posted by sumpter250 on Wednesday, July 18, 2007 12:26 PM
  When the photos were on "railimages" there were links to them. Now they load directly, as I replaced the links with IMG tags. To get the actual link, right click the photo and select properties.

Lead me not into temptation ..................I can find it myself

  • Member since
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  • From: Harrisburg, PA
Posted by Lufbery on Thursday, July 19, 2007 12:00 PM

 sumpter250 wrote:
  When the photos were on "railimages" there were links to them. Now they load directly, as I replaced the links with IMG tags. To get the actual link, right click the photo and select properties.

Earlier in this thread? I'll take a look.

Thanks!

-Drew

Build what you like; like what you build.

  • Member since
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  • From: Belgium
Posted by DanCooper on Sunday, July 29, 2007 12:25 PM

First the on-topic part of my Reply :  Fantastic work on that ship, I have started a couple of period plastic ships in the past, but for some reason they never got finished Disapprove [V]

 

And now the off-topic part, I think this is more a question for prof. Tilley or if another expert jumps in that's ok too. :

It's been a while since I've red the first 7 or 8 A/B novels, but in one of them (don't ask me for the title anymore please) Aubrey was given command to a new ship that was being built (I don't remember the name of it, but the name was also the name of a Celtic or perhaps Pictic queen), and since my knowledge of 19th century ships is rather limited, I had real difficulty imagening the shape of that ship.

Both Aubrey and Maturin are rather disgusted by the shape of the ship, and if I'm not mistaken, at a certain point it's Maturin who says, quote : "you can't see if she's coming or if she's going" end quote. (remember that I read a dutch translation, so the quote might be different in the english version of the books)

Is, or rather, was this kind of ship (the ship in the book doesn't even survive till the end of the novel) based on an actual design and if so, can someone please put up a drawing or picture, since I have absolutely no idea what to think of it, and I really hate that feeling Banged Head [banghead]

 

PS : I found this, maybe someone can find some use for it while building...

 

On the bench : Revell's 1/125 RV Calypso

  • Member since
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  • From: vernon hills illinois
Posted by sumpter250 on Sunday, July 29, 2007 11:47 PM
   Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that would be HMS Boadicea.

Lead me not into temptation ..................I can find it myself

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Monday, July 30, 2007 5:11 AM

A big, glitzy new catalog from Model Expo arrived in my mailbox the other day.  It includes a new, wood H.M.S. Surprise kit, under the Amati label.  [Later edit:  Actually the kit is from Mamoli; see correction below.  My fault; sorry.  Mamoli's reputation among serious scale ship modelers is, if anything, even worse than Amati's.]

Amati is one of the notorious HECPOB manufacturers, about whom I've ranted at some length elsewhere in this forum.  (In the unlikely event that anybody's interested, a forum search on "HECEPOB" - that's Hideously Expensive Continental European Plank On Bulkhead - will produce several lengthy cures for insomnia.)  I've never bought an Amati kit, and I'm not sure anything could make me do so.  [Later edit:  The same comments apply to Mamoli kits.  I've never bought any of them either, nor am I likely to do so.]  On the other hand, that particular company [Amati - not Mamoli] has given some signs recently that it's seen the light - i.e., that its management has discovered, at least in the most general terms, what a scale ship model is.  I have to say that the color photo of this new Surprise kit in the catalog looks pretty good.  It's not big enough to inspire real confidence, but some of the really awful features that characterize a lot of the photos in that catalog (e.g., yards in the wrong places, horrible looking "sails," and ludicrously inaccurate rigging) aren't visible.  I'm not about to send off $300 for the thing, but it looks like it might - might - actually be a pretty nice kit.

The same catalog shows a couple of new Amati kits with cast-resin hulls (which apparently are intended to be planked with walnut).  One of them is a Morris-class American revenue cutter.  (A small American firm recently announced a resin-hulled Morris-class kit.  One has to wonder if this is a coincidence.)  We've cogitated several times in this Forum about the considerable potential of the cast resin hull as a basis for sailing ship kits.  Maybe - maybe - this company is actually listening, and making a genuine effort to produce some kits that appeal to serious scale models.  If so, it will mark a major reversal in the marketing policy of one of the worst of the HECEPOB firms.  I won't believe it until and unless I see some hard evidence to prove it - but it sure would be nice.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
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  • From: vernon hills illinois
Posted by sumpter250 on Monday, July 30, 2007 3:35 PM

(A small American firm recently announced a resin-hulled Morris-class kit.  One has to wonder if this is a coincidence.) 

  Well, this thread is about using a "pirate ship" kit to build something else. So, piracy is not completely out of the question here.Whistling [:-^]  On the other hand, $300.00, give or take could be taken as an awfully high rate for pie. I think I would have to look long and hard at one of these kits before I'd fork over that much dough for the kit!  I really didn't....yeah I did say that!

Lead me not into temptation ..................I can find it myself

  • Member since
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  • From: Belgium
Posted by DanCooper on Monday, July 30, 2007 4:25 PM

Is this the one, dr. Tilley ?

 

 

Costs 599 euro's or, at this shop "only" 499 euro's, 1 euro is currently 1.31 dollar Grumpy [|(]

On the bench : Revell's 1/125 RV Calypso

  • Member since
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  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Monday, July 30, 2007 10:23 PM
Well, all I can say for sure is that the photo DanCooper posted isn't the one that's in the Model Expo catalog.  (The kit doesn't yet appear on the Model Expo website.)  The one illustrated in the catalog has no sails, and generally looks quite a bit better.  But with that sort of model, and with such small photos, it's tough to tell; both might have originated with the same kit.  The prices seem roughly consistent.  On the other hand, a rumor was circulating a while back that another HECEPOB company, Artisania Latina (whose products, generally speaking, seem to be even trashier than Amati's), was going to do a Surprise.  Maybe it did.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    March 2004
Posted by Gerarddm on Monday, July 30, 2007 10:38 PM
The Aubrey/Maturin ship you were referring to that didn't know if it was coming or going was HMS Polychrest, not Boadicea, which was a pefectly orthodox 38-gun frigate.
Gerard> WA State Current: 1/700 What-If Railgun Battlecruiser 1/700 Admiralty COURAGEOUS battlecruiser
  • Member since
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  • From: Belgium
Posted by DanCooper on Tuesday, July 31, 2007 5:09 AM

 Gerarddm wrote:
The Aubrey/Maturin ship you were referring to that didn't know if it was coming or going was HMS Polychrest, not Boadicea, which was a pefectly orthodox 38-gun frigate.

Aha, ok, thanks I now know what to google for to have a look at it :)

 

Dr Tilley, I'm afraid I was a bit confused before, the image I posted is the Artesania Latina version, but I always get confused with Mamoli, Amati and AL because, over here they share the same catalogue, or at least they used to, so I always thought they were actually the same factory.

Speaking of wooden ship kits, have any of you ever tried one of these ? And if so are they worth the money ? 

On the bench : Revell's 1/125 RV Calypso

  • Member since
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  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Tuesday, July 31, 2007 5:45 PM

I have no idea what sort of relationships exist among the HECEPOB companies.  As I understand it Amati and Mamoli are Italian, and Artisania Latina is Spanish.  I should perhaps emphasize that I've never bought, or built, any of their kits.  I did review a couple of AL products for a magazine quite a few years ago; I wasn't favorably impressed. 

There are signs that Amati is thinking about breaking away from the pack, so to speak.  It's started a range called Victory Models, the kits in which, as I understand it, are designed by a gentleman who used to work for Calder/Jotika.  On the basis of the photos in the Model Expo catalog, they certainly appear to be genuine, honest to goodness scale models - which is more than can be said for any AL or Mamoli product I've ever encountered.

I haven't built, or even seen, any of the kits from that German company; they seem to be quite rare in the U.S.  They've been discussed here in the Forum a few times, but I can't recall any Forum participant's having said he's actually bought or built one.  The photos, however, look pretty impressive.  The people responsible for those kits certainly seem to know what a scale ship model is.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

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  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Thursday, August 2, 2007 10:53 PM

I just took another look at that Model Expo catalog.  The new wood Surprise kit that I referred to in several posts above is made not by Amati but by Mamoli.  Mea culpa; I apologize - and hope my mistake hasn't thoroughly confused everybody.

The photo in the printed catalog (which isn't on the Model Expo website yet) suggests that this may be a pretty good kit.  Caveat again:  it would be idiotic to pass judgment, positive or negative, solely on the basis of one, relatively small photo.  But the photo appears to show a reasonable scale model.  If the kit does indeed meet that description, it's an historic first for Mamoli, which has long held a reputation as one of the very worst of the HECEPOB companies.  If this manufacturer has in fact seen the light, and discovered what a scale ship model is, that will be good news for the modeling community - if not a harbinger of the End of Civilization As We Know It.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Friday, August 3, 2007 10:01 AM

Now I see that Calder/Jotika is getting ready to release a wood H.M.S. Surprise kit.  Here's a link to a discussion of it - with some pretty impressive photos:  http://modelshipworld.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1885&postdays=0&postorder=asc&&start=0

The scale is 1/64, so the model will be pretty huge.  And it presumably will be expensive.  But these people quite obviously know what they're doing.  If I were contemplating a model of this vessel, this is the kit I'd wait for.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
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  • From: vernon hills illinois
Posted by sumpter250 on Friday, August 3, 2007 1:40 PM

  OK, I'm impressed!

   Being very new to the world of kit design, and development, I can only say, WOW!!! This is a well thought out model! I would have a hard time believing that the necessary research wasn't done, considering the effort that has been put into the design. Having scratchbuilt plank on frame, this looks to be very "builder friendly", but by no means, an entry level project! Adjustable elevation on the carronades indeed! Yes!, I am impressed so far.

Lead me not into temptation ..................I can find it myself

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Posted by shannonman on Friday, August 3, 2007 3:23 PM
Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket" border="0" />
"Follow me who can" Captain Philip Broke. H.M.S. Shannon 1st June 1813.
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  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Friday, August 3, 2007 10:56 PM

The photo Shannonman has posted appears to be the same one that's in the Model Expo printed catalog - i.e., the new Mamoli kit.  So now we've got photos of all three:  Mamoli, Artesania Latina, and Calder/Jotika.

One slightly odd aspect of all this:  it seems curious that not one, not two, but three ship model manufacturers have jumped on this idea simultaneously - ten or fifteen years after the O'Brian novels appeared, and three years (right?  Or has it been longer than that?) after the movie was released.  It does take some time to design and produce a wood sailing ship kit, but the coincidence is remarkable.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

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  • From: Belgium
Posted by DanCooper on Saturday, August 4, 2007 7:35 PM
Eurh, prof. Tilley, euh, what's a "tumblehome" ?  A question from a "wanting to learn pupil" ?

On the bench : Revell's 1/125 RV Calypso

  • Member since
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  • From: vernon hills illinois
Posted by sumpter250 on Saturday, August 4, 2007 9:50 PM

what's a "tumblehome" ?  A question from a "wanting to learn pupil" ?

   Dan, tumblehome is the inward slant of the hull sides, above the waterline, slight at just forward of midships, and usually increasing towards the transom. In the photo, posted by shannonman, you can see the fore and aft edges of the forwardmost gunport, appear almost vertical, and the same edges of the aftmost gunport slant inward. That inward slant indicates the tumblehome in that hull's lines.

Lead me not into temptation ..................I can find it myself

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Posted by Gerarddm on Saturday, August 4, 2007 11:57 PM
That German model site shows a nicely done model of Duke William, and I instantly recalled an article years ago in Nautical Research Journal (  hmmm, or was it Seaway's Ships In Scale?)about a German guy named Kammerlander who developed a new technique for forming wood fames over molds, etc. A Duke William was in the article.. I wonder if he is behind this site, in which case there will indeed be a high devoted effort to historical accuracy.
Gerard> WA State Current: 1/700 What-If Railgun Battlecruiser 1/700 Admiralty COURAGEOUS battlecruiser
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  • From: Belgium
Posted by DanCooper on Sunday, August 5, 2007 12:53 PM

Gerard, I think this is indeed the case, as these kits on that german site are made in a very peculiar way.  What you get in those kit boxes is a plaster mold of the hull on wich you form the frames by warming up very thin strips of wood with a kind of soldering iron.

By the way, the finished models of these kids are very small, I believe the largest one is about 35cm long. 

This is how these kits are built :

 

And on this picture of the Duke William, you can see how intrigate and delicate the whole structure of the hull is :

On the following link you can see how a Hamiltons Gunboat is being built, step by step :

http://www.gk-modellbau.de/DE/Galerie/Baustufen2028/index.html?

On the bench : Revell's 1/125 RV Calypso

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  • From: Belgium
Posted by DanCooper on Sunday, August 5, 2007 2:26 PM

 sumpter250 wrote:
   Dan, tumblehome is the inward slant of the hull sides, above the waterline, slight at just forward of midships, and usually increasing towards the transom. In the photo, posted by shannonman, you can see the fore and aft edges of the forwardmost gunport, appear almost vertical, and the same edges of the aftmost gunport slant inward. That inward slant indicates the tumblehome in that hull's lines.

Thank you very much, prof., ...oh boy do I need to do some reading up :) 

On the bench : Revell's 1/125 RV Calypso

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Posted by Gerarddm on Monday, August 6, 2007 11:06 AM
DanCooper, that's the guy, Gebhard Kammerlander. I found the article: Building The Duke William Using The Kammerlander Method, by Ameil Klein, Seaway's Ships in Scale Jan/Feb 1999, Volume X, Number 1.
Gerard> WA State Current: 1/700 What-If Railgun Battlecruiser 1/700 Admiralty COURAGEOUS battlecruiser
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