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HMS Surprise- The movie version

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  • Member since
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  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Friday, August 3, 2007 10:01 AM

Now I see that Calder/Jotika is getting ready to release a wood H.M.S. Surprise kit.  Here's a link to a discussion of it - with some pretty impressive photos:  http://modelshipworld.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1885&postdays=0&postorder=asc&&start=0

The scale is 1/64, so the model will be pretty huge.  And it presumably will be expensive.  But these people quite obviously know what they're doing.  If I were contemplating a model of this vessel, this is the kit I'd wait for.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

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  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Thursday, August 2, 2007 10:53 PM

I just took another look at that Model Expo catalog.  The new wood Surprise kit that I referred to in several posts above is made not by Amati but by Mamoli.  Mea culpa; I apologize - and hope my mistake hasn't thoroughly confused everybody.

The photo in the printed catalog (which isn't on the Model Expo website yet) suggests that this may be a pretty good kit.  Caveat again:  it would be idiotic to pass judgment, positive or negative, solely on the basis of one, relatively small photo.  But the photo appears to show a reasonable scale model.  If the kit does indeed meet that description, it's an historic first for Mamoli, which has long held a reputation as one of the very worst of the HECEPOB companies.  If this manufacturer has in fact seen the light, and discovered what a scale ship model is, that will be good news for the modeling community - if not a harbinger of the End of Civilization As We Know It.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

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  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Tuesday, July 31, 2007 5:45 PM

I have no idea what sort of relationships exist among the HECEPOB companies.  As I understand it Amati and Mamoli are Italian, and Artisania Latina is Spanish.  I should perhaps emphasize that I've never bought, or built, any of their kits.  I did review a couple of AL products for a magazine quite a few years ago; I wasn't favorably impressed. 

There are signs that Amati is thinking about breaking away from the pack, so to speak.  It's started a range called Victory Models, the kits in which, as I understand it, are designed by a gentleman who used to work for Calder/Jotika.  On the basis of the photos in the Model Expo catalog, they certainly appear to be genuine, honest to goodness scale models - which is more than can be said for any AL or Mamoli product I've ever encountered.

I haven't built, or even seen, any of the kits from that German company; they seem to be quite rare in the U.S.  They've been discussed here in the Forum a few times, but I can't recall any Forum participant's having said he's actually bought or built one.  The photos, however, look pretty impressive.  The people responsible for those kits certainly seem to know what a scale ship model is.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

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  • From: Belgium
Posted by DanCooper on Tuesday, July 31, 2007 5:09 AM

 Gerarddm wrote:
The Aubrey/Maturin ship you were referring to that didn't know if it was coming or going was HMS Polychrest, not Boadicea, which was a pefectly orthodox 38-gun frigate.

Aha, ok, thanks I now know what to google for to have a look at it :)

 

Dr Tilley, I'm afraid I was a bit confused before, the image I posted is the Artesania Latina version, but I always get confused with Mamoli, Amati and AL because, over here they share the same catalogue, or at least they used to, so I always thought they were actually the same factory.

Speaking of wooden ship kits, have any of you ever tried one of these ? And if so are they worth the money ? 

On the bench : Revell's 1/125 RV Calypso

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Posted by Gerarddm on Monday, July 30, 2007 10:38 PM
The Aubrey/Maturin ship you were referring to that didn't know if it was coming or going was HMS Polychrest, not Boadicea, which was a pefectly orthodox 38-gun frigate.
Gerard> WA State Current: 1/700 What-If Railgun Battlecruiser 1/700 Admiralty COURAGEOUS battlecruiser
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Posted by jtilley on Monday, July 30, 2007 10:23 PM
Well, all I can say for sure is that the photo DanCooper posted isn't the one that's in the Model Expo catalog.  (The kit doesn't yet appear on the Model Expo website.)  The one illustrated in the catalog has no sails, and generally looks quite a bit better.  But with that sort of model, and with such small photos, it's tough to tell; both might have originated with the same kit.  The prices seem roughly consistent.  On the other hand, a rumor was circulating a while back that another HECEPOB company, Artisania Latina (whose products, generally speaking, seem to be even trashier than Amati's), was going to do a Surprise.  Maybe it did.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

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  • From: Belgium
Posted by DanCooper on Monday, July 30, 2007 4:25 PM

Is this the one, dr. Tilley ?

 

 

Costs 599 euro's or, at this shop "only" 499 euro's, 1 euro is currently 1.31 dollar Grumpy [|(]

On the bench : Revell's 1/125 RV Calypso

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  • From: vernon hills illinois
Posted by sumpter250 on Monday, July 30, 2007 3:35 PM

(A small American firm recently announced a resin-hulled Morris-class kit.  One has to wonder if this is a coincidence.) 

  Well, this thread is about using a "pirate ship" kit to build something else. So, piracy is not completely out of the question here.Whistling [:-^]  On the other hand, $300.00, give or take could be taken as an awfully high rate for pie. I think I would have to look long and hard at one of these kits before I'd fork over that much dough for the kit!  I really didn't....yeah I did say that!

Lead me not into temptation ..................I can find it myself

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  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Monday, July 30, 2007 5:11 AM

A big, glitzy new catalog from Model Expo arrived in my mailbox the other day.  It includes a new, wood H.M.S. Surprise kit, under the Amati label.  [Later edit:  Actually the kit is from Mamoli; see correction below.  My fault; sorry.  Mamoli's reputation among serious scale ship modelers is, if anything, even worse than Amati's.]

Amati is one of the notorious HECPOB manufacturers, about whom I've ranted at some length elsewhere in this forum.  (In the unlikely event that anybody's interested, a forum search on "HECEPOB" - that's Hideously Expensive Continental European Plank On Bulkhead - will produce several lengthy cures for insomnia.)  I've never bought an Amati kit, and I'm not sure anything could make me do so.  [Later edit:  The same comments apply to Mamoli kits.  I've never bought any of them either, nor am I likely to do so.]  On the other hand, that particular company [Amati - not Mamoli] has given some signs recently that it's seen the light - i.e., that its management has discovered, at least in the most general terms, what a scale ship model is.  I have to say that the color photo of this new Surprise kit in the catalog looks pretty good.  It's not big enough to inspire real confidence, but some of the really awful features that characterize a lot of the photos in that catalog (e.g., yards in the wrong places, horrible looking "sails," and ludicrously inaccurate rigging) aren't visible.  I'm not about to send off $300 for the thing, but it looks like it might - might - actually be a pretty nice kit.

The same catalog shows a couple of new Amati kits with cast-resin hulls (which apparently are intended to be planked with walnut).  One of them is a Morris-class American revenue cutter.  (A small American firm recently announced a resin-hulled Morris-class kit.  One has to wonder if this is a coincidence.)  We've cogitated several times in this Forum about the considerable potential of the cast resin hull as a basis for sailing ship kits.  Maybe - maybe - this company is actually listening, and making a genuine effort to produce some kits that appeal to serious scale models.  If so, it will mark a major reversal in the marketing policy of one of the worst of the HECEPOB firms.  I won't believe it until and unless I see some hard evidence to prove it - but it sure would be nice.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

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  • From: vernon hills illinois
Posted by sumpter250 on Sunday, July 29, 2007 11:47 PM
   Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that would be HMS Boadicea.

Lead me not into temptation ..................I can find it myself

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  • From: Belgium
Posted by DanCooper on Sunday, July 29, 2007 12:25 PM

First the on-topic part of my Reply :  Fantastic work on that ship, I have started a couple of period plastic ships in the past, but for some reason they never got finished Disapprove [V]

 

And now the off-topic part, I think this is more a question for prof. Tilley or if another expert jumps in that's ok too. :

It's been a while since I've red the first 7 or 8 A/B novels, but in one of them (don't ask me for the title anymore please) Aubrey was given command to a new ship that was being built (I don't remember the name of it, but the name was also the name of a Celtic or perhaps Pictic queen), and since my knowledge of 19th century ships is rather limited, I had real difficulty imagening the shape of that ship.

Both Aubrey and Maturin are rather disgusted by the shape of the ship, and if I'm not mistaken, at a certain point it's Maturin who says, quote : "you can't see if she's coming or if she's going" end quote. (remember that I read a dutch translation, so the quote might be different in the english version of the books)

Is, or rather, was this kind of ship (the ship in the book doesn't even survive till the end of the novel) based on an actual design and if so, can someone please put up a drawing or picture, since I have absolutely no idea what to think of it, and I really hate that feeling Banged Head [banghead]

 

PS : I found this, maybe someone can find some use for it while building...

 

On the bench : Revell's 1/125 RV Calypso

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  • From: Harrisburg, PA
Posted by Lufbery on Thursday, July 19, 2007 12:00 PM

 sumpter250 wrote:
  When the photos were on "railimages" there were links to them. Now they load directly, as I replaced the links with IMG tags. To get the actual link, right click the photo and select properties.

Earlier in this thread? I'll take a look.

Thanks!

-Drew

Build what you like; like what you build.

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Posted by sumpter250 on Wednesday, July 18, 2007 12:26 PM
  When the photos were on "railimages" there were links to them. Now they load directly, as I replaced the links with IMG tags. To get the actual link, right click the photo and select properties.

Lead me not into temptation ..................I can find it myself

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Posted by Lufbery on Tuesday, July 17, 2007 8:35 PM

Sumpter,

Where are the links to the photos? Smile [:)]

 Thanks,

-Drew

Build what you like; like what you build.

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  • From: vernon hills illinois
Posted by sumpter250 on Thursday, July 12, 2007 1:00 PM
  I finally got all the pictures uploaded to photobucket, and all the links edited, so there are pictures again!

Lead me not into temptation ..................I can find it myself

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  • From: vernon hills illinois
Posted by sumpter250 on Tuesday, July 3, 2007 1:16 PM

Joe,

   Railimages.com changed hands, and in the process, my gallery there.....disappeared!

   Your post was here when I got done updating as many photos as I could find. There are still a couple I have to look for, and upload to photobucket, so, anything that still is a link to "railimages" won't work. I might have been able to fix this sooner, but I was negotiating with trainboard .com, in an attempt to find and restore the gallery in railimages. Unfortunately, that couldn't be done. There are several other forums where I have Railimage linked pics...It's going to be a while before all is well again.

   Progress has been temporarily halted, with Surprise. I have been busy with GCLaser(  www.gclaser.com  ). We're developing some new kit possibilities. If we are successful with the new line, I may be rather busy for an extended period of time. Talk about mixed emotions! I still have a lot of lower deadeyes to strop, and install, before I can start rigging the lower shrouds, and stays.

   It is rather interesting that on this day, as I'm "fixing" the pic problem, you should bring the thread back to the front page, cool.

Lead me not into temptation ..................I can find it myself

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  • From: Virginia
Posted by JoeRugby on Tuesday, July 3, 2007 12:42 PM

Mr. Sumpter,

Please post some photos!  This is a wonderful project and I am enthralled by it, so much so I have begun building sqaure rigs myself and your work is an inspiration!

Check out the WW I Special Interest Group @ http://swannysmodels.com/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=WW1SIG
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  • From: vernon hills illinois
Posted by sumpter250 on Sunday, January 21, 2007 7:42 PM

   Time flies ! it doesn't take too long to end up on the "back page".  In between several other required projects, I've been building lower deadeye/chainplate assemblies. To check the angles for each assembly, I put together the masts from the kit, and set them in place. Oops!, back to the movie, and hit the pause button.....yup, the kit masts are far too tall. I had to remove about one inch from all the lower masts to bring them into proportion with the new hull length, and the broadside shot of the movie prop surprise. Looks like the topmasts will also have to be shortened slightly. In one of the shots, there is a crewman in the main top, leaning on the rail at the aft end of the top. Judging from the angle of the man's arms, his hands were 3' apart. From that, the width of the top comes in at about 10'. The tops in the Jolly Roger are about 1/2" too wide. The spanker in the Jolly Roger is loose footed, in the movie version Surprise it has a boom, even though it is brailled up. The outhaul runs through a sheeve in the end of the boom. I'll have to look closely again to see where the outhaul is belayed. The DVD, and a set of proportional dividers are becoming the most used tools in this build.

    In another thread, jtilley mentioned "Master and Commander" as a good sailling ship movie. There's been a lot of discussion since the last post here, and watching the movie again, I was looking for some of the details, and facts. Most all of them were there. I am pleasantly surprised by the accuracy of detail, action, and script. There's a lot that can be learned from M and C, but there are some discrepancies with published facts. Still, watching the clew lines pay out as the main course is unfurled, and the removal and storage of the forward bulkhead of the great cabin, in preparation for battle, and all the other little details makes the movie a relatively good reference for how things worked.

Lead me not into temptation ..................I can find it myself

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  • From: Virginia
Posted by JoeRugby on Monday, October 30, 2006 8:50 AM

WOW!

The build is great and the flow of information is awesome!  There was a comment concerning representing wood grain.

Well the build inspired me and I have been attempting a modification of the Jolly Roger.  Nothing like this one though.  I built the quarter deck from balso and strapped it to the plastic deck.  Then using my contour guage I "combed" both the plastic and balsa and think I got it!

I hope to post some pictures in a seperate post once the project begins to take shape.

Check out the WW I Special Interest Group @ http://swannysmodels.com/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=WW1SIG
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Posted by jtilley on Thursday, September 28, 2006 3:28 PM

In British and American frigates the break of the quarterdeck usually was aft of the mainmast, but there were plenty of exceptions - and I think the exceptions became more numerous as time went on.  By the time the gangway arrangement evolved into the spardeck, the oversized "hatch" formed by the break of the forecastle, the break of the quarterdeck, and the gangways occupied the space between the fore and mainmasts - as on the Lindberg kit.  I don't recall seeing a contemporary model or drawing of a spar-decked frigate whose mainmast emerged from the "big hatch."

That Admiralty drawing of the Surprise is kind of hard to decipher, because the reproduction doesn't include the deck plans.  It looks to me, though, like she had a separate, raised quarterdeck and forecastle, with the break of the quarterdeck forward of the mainmast.  (She was, after all, built in France, and probably deviated in lots of ways from typical British practice.) 

The profile view shows the major deck fixtures, including those on the main and berth decks.  (They seem a little lighter than the outlines of the ship.  That sort of feature on Admiralty drafts was often drawn in red or green ink, which has long since faded - and of course doesn't show up as such in black-and-white photos like this one.)  Notice that various pieces of deck furniture, such as ladders, capstans, and hatch coamings, on the maindeck, quarterdeck, and forecastle deckare shown clearly, but nothing projects above the bulwark in the waist.  On the quarterdeck just forward of the mainmast is what certainly looks like a side view of a railing stanchion; I think that's the railing at the break of the quarterdeck.  There's a small oblong structure near the aft end of the forecastle deck that I can't quite identify - but nothing between that and the rail stanchion.  I'm obviously not a hundred percent sure, but I think that space is the gap between the break of the quarterdeck and the break of the forecastle. 

The small steps in the rail at the top of the bulwark are decorative devices called "hances."  They generally were located in the vicinity of the breaks of the quarterdeck and forecastle.  (You can make out one of them in the photo of the Hancock model in the upper left of this page, and more clearly here:  http://www.hmsvictoryscalemodels.be/JohnTilleyHancock/photos/photo6.html ). 

Most - but not all - sets of Admiralty drawings from this period include the deck plans on separate sheets of drafting cloth.  I don't know whether the deck plans in this particular set have survived or not.  Publishers unfortunately are in the habit of reproducing only the profile and body plan portions of Admiralty drafts, but the deck plans often are at least as interesting - and just as helpful to modelers.  Without the deck plans there is, for instance, no way to tell how this ship's gangways (if any) were configured, or how wide they were.

One thing does come across loud and clear from this reproduction, though.  The real H.M.S. Surprise didn't look much like La Flore - or H.M.S. Rose.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

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Posted by sumpter250 on Thursday, September 28, 2006 12:34 PM

 The Lindberg kit has what Prof. Tilley described as permanent gangways connecting the Quarterdeck, and the Forecastle deck, with no step. There seems to be a coming that runs completely around the open area. The ship's boats were stored on the gun deck, and there were gratings below them. One quick question; Did the Quarterdeck usually extend forward past the main mast? The area on the lindberg kit where the "gangways" are, is between the main and fore masts.

http://members.aol.com/batrnq/images/WSurprise.jpg  is a drawing of Surprise / L' Unite. The best I can figure is that there is a step in the spar deck to both quarterdeck, and forecastle deck, but only a slight one. Thankyou Prof. for the evolution of the spar deck. My knowledge of that era of sailing vessels is somewhat limited, my interests lying more in clippers, coastal schooners, and the workboats of New England, and the Chesapeake Bay. My only "gunship" models have been the Alexander Hamilton (Ideal), Constitution ( wood hull, unknown, dismasted by lowest bidder movers), and now Surprise (movie version).

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Posted by jtilley on Wednesday, September 27, 2006 10:25 PM

I think there's some confusion over vocabulary here.  There's good reason for it to be confusing; it's not entirely rational.

A frigate, as the term was defined in the eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries, had its main armament on one, full-length deck, variously called either the gundeck or the maindeck.  The typical first-generation British frigate, in the mid-eighteenth century, had, in addition to that deck, a raised forecastle deck and quarterdeck, leaving the maindeck/gundeck exposed in the waist. 

It wasn't long before somebody figured out  that everybody's life would be simpler if it were possible to walk directly from the forecastle to the quarterdeck, and vice-versa. So frigates started to be fitted with narrow wood "gangways" connecting the two raised decks.  When I was working on my model of the Hancock I made a mighty effort to figure out just how the gangway evolved; I became convinced that it developed inconsistently.  There was a period, about the time of the American Revolution (i.e., when the real H.M.S. Rose was in service), when some frigates had no gangways, some had gangways that were only a couple of feet wide, and some had wider ones.  (I base that statement on having looked at quite a few contemporary frigate models in the National Maritime Museum.)  Generally - but not always - the gangways during that period were portable; some Admiralty draughts from the 1760s and 1770s have platforms jutting out from the quarterdeck and forecastle labeled "fixed part of the gangway."

As time went on, the gangways got wider - not only in frigates but in larger vessels as well.  And the gangways came to be permanent fixtures.  They in fact became, to all intents and purposes, extensions of the planking of the quarterdeck and forecastle deck.  H.M.S. Victory, for instance, is generally said to have a separate, raised quarterdeck and forecastle, connected by permanent gangways.

Eventually the gangways got so wide that the space between them, through which the main deck/gundeck was visible, amounted to an oversized, elongated hatch.  (Example:  the U.S.S. Constitution.)  At about that time, people started referring to the whole "assembly" of forecastle deck, gangways, and quarterdeck as simply the "spar deck."  Literature about the Constitution generally refers to the full-length deck with the main armament on it as the "gundeck," and the uppermost deck as the "spar deck."  When somebody on board that ship talks about the "forecastle" or the "quarterdeck," he's talking about the forward or after section of the spar deck.

The Lindberg "Jolly Roger" is a reissue of an old kit representing a French frigate, La Flore.  I haven't seen the kit in a long time, but as I remember it has what amounts to a spar deck - a single piece of plastic that stretches from bow to stern, with a big opening in it through which the gundeck can be seen.  As I recall, the gangways (or, if you like, the central section of the spar deck) are fairly wide strips of  "planking" with gratings molded in them.  (I think that's a fairly distinctively French feature.  I can't recall seeing a British or American frigate with gangways built like that.) 

The replica of H.M.S. Rose (the one used in the movie) was built with a (sort of) spar deck - one that doesn't look anything like anything on a real eighteenth-century frigate.  Rather than a separate raised quarterdeck and forecastle, she has a simple, full-length deck, with no big hatch in the middle (at least that's how I remember her), stretching from the bow to the stern and completely covering the main deck/gundeck.  To put it another way, the space between the forecastle deck and the quarterdeck was planked over.  (The explanation for this obvious deviation from historical accuracy was that it "enabled us to make better use of the ship.")

I haven't seen the Admiralty draught of the real H.M.S. Surprise (there actually was a frigate of that name, though the Patrick O'Brian buffs think he modified her a little in his imagination), so I don't know just what the configuration of her decks was.  It's a fairly safe bet, though, that she had a separate quarterdeck and forecastle deck, with either temporary or (more likely) permanent gangways connecting them - and a big open space in the middle where the main deck was exposed to the weather.

I'd have to take a look at the Lindberg kit again to make an intelligent recommendation, but one possible approach would be to cut off the gangways, thereby leaving the forecastle deck and quarterdeck separate.  That wouldn't make the model look like the ship in the movie - but might make it look more like the real Surprise.  To make the kit look more like the ship in the movie, you'd have to fill in the space between the gangways - and thereby make the result look unlike an eighteenth-century frigate.  All of which constitutes one of the many reasons why I haven't been attracted by the proposition of building a model of the ship in the movie.

Hope that helps a little.  Good luck.

 

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

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  • From: vernon hills illinois
Posted by sumpter250 on Wednesday, September 27, 2006 11:16 AM
The photo of the Rose, rebuilt as Surprise also shows no step up to the fo'c'sl deck. The basic premise of using the Jolly Roger as a starting point for a model of Surprise, rules out "scale model". No matter which surprise you wish to model, the Roger's hull is wrong, and would take some serious plank on frame rebuilding(OK, read this as building a new hull, from scratch) to even come close. That said, this is still a fun project, that will produce a good looking, albiet relatively inaccurate, ship model.

Lead me not into temptation ..................I can find it myself

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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, September 26, 2006 8:07 PM

To JT and Sumpter,

Thanks for the response. But JT, am I to interpret your comments as saying that the movie version of Surprise is NOT accurate, in that it lacks a raised foc'sle deck (quote: "...like every other British eighteenth-century frigate")? Seems like a fairly easy task to add one to the Lindberg JR, but it looks just fine without it. Please forgive my naivete, but I'm still just trying to figure out which "version" of HMS S to model.

And Sumpter, the railroad bug is alive and well in me too. I feel your pleasure/pain. (Where does the time go)?

Thanks again for all the help.

Weasel505

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  • From: vernon hills illinois
Posted by sumpter250 on Sunday, September 24, 2006 9:54 AM

 The scene, in the movie, where Dr. Maturin is shot, is done looking forward, and there appears to be no step in the fo'c'sl.  In light of "the movie version" the full size "tank" model is the most used version, and is the one I return to for the details I model. The spar deck and almost all the deck furniture, are Evergreen styrene. When using a wire brush, or sand paper to create woodgrain, try to keep the strokes all in the same direction. Don't try to gouge too deeply, at this scale you only want a hint of grain. Remember, these decks were holystoned fairly regularly, and were smooth in texture. More important than "grain" would be color difference board to board, and a hint of caulking between the planks.

 Construction is currently on hold, as I'm preparing modules for Trainfest, in Milwaukee, and I have some new projects with GC Laser, that need to be done by Trainfest. "Surprise" may just show up, in the drydock of my Ntrak module, I have some "logistics" issues I have to address before that happens.

Lead me not into temptation ..................I can find it myself

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  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Sunday, September 24, 2006 8:29 AM

The ship used in the movie, as I guess most enthusiasts know, is a reconstruction of H.M.S. Rose that was built quite a few years ago and bought by the movie makers.  I've only been on board her once - and that was a long time ago, when she was a "museum ship" (not a very good one) moored at Newport, Rhode Island.  My recollection is that, indeed, her waist was planked over, making her virtually flush-decked. 

The explanation, as I recall, was that this arrangement enabled the owners "to make better use of the ship."   They acknowledged, in other words, that the flush-decked configuration was completely bogus in terms of historical accuracy.  (The Admiralty draught of the Rose exists; it shows her with separate, raised forecastle and quarterdeck - like every other British eighteenth-century frigate.) 

I confess that, in all the times I've watched the movie, I didn't notice that point.  I think the movie makers may have deliberately - and largely successfully - camouflaged the discrepancy.  (They built their own "duplicate" of the Rose, which they floated in a giant tank; maybe the tank model has properly-configured decks.)  There's a scene in which Dr. Maturin is operating on the sailor with the injured skull.  If I remember correctly, we're given the impression that the operation is taking place in the ship's waist, with a gang of sailors gaping down from the break of either the forecastle or the quarterdeck.

This is the sort of thing that comes up when one decides to build a model of a movie prop.  In many ways the ship in the movie doesn't actually look like a frigate of 1805. 

I'm not aware of any manufactured plastic product that has "wood grain" molded into it.  Evergreen, however, makes some nice styrene sheets with grooves molded in them to represent planking seams.  There's considerable disagreement among modelers about whether wood grain ought to be visible in three dimensions at such a small scale.  If you do want to represent it, it can be done pretty convincingly by scratching the surface of the plastic with either a stiff wire brush or a sheet of fairly fine sandpaper.

Hope that helps a little.  Good luck.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, September 23, 2006 7:27 PM

Hi all,

This post has nothing to do with the subject being discussed. I just want to keep this thread about HMS Surprise alive, since I'm still seriously considering building one.

I have one simple question: all my sources about the "movie version" of Surprise appear to show the quarterdeck raised slightly above the main deck; the main deck is continuous to the bow. That is, there is no raised foc'sle deck. Nor is there a "three-deck" arrangement, as seen in some models on-line.

OK, another question: where can I buy plastic wood-grained deck stock to replace the Lindberg decks?

Thanks much.

Weasel

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: vernon hills illinois
Posted by sumpter250 on Tuesday, September 5, 2006 12:37 PM

 

 


These are pics of a project started in late 1970, and completed in 1977. I laid down the lines for this 40" gaff rigged cutter in November '70, lofted and cut the twentyeight double sawn frames, erected room double space, and planked with mahogany strips, shaped and fitted to the hull. The only commercial parts used were blocks, deadeyes, belaying pins, and chain. It is a 1/64 scale model, 7-1/2" long on deck.


   Now that you've seen my "business card", you know where I am coming from. Prof. Tilley's comments about "hecepob" kits are fully supported by me. I have seen them in the store where I worked for a time, and at the industry shows in Rosemont. Il. I am not impressed with the quality, and assembly. I can loft frames and plank a hull, why should I spend the small fortune for a kit, that I can build from scratch, and produce a more accurate model, not to mention the immense satisfaction of the build. Can these companies produce something of value? Why not? As a model railroader, I remember the names Bachmann, and LifeLike. They still produce things that can be found in the slime under the trash can, but they also have new lines. Bachmann Spectrum, and LifeLike Proto 2000 Heritage, are among the top of the line in HO scale. Beautiful detail, and excellent running qualities. If these two companies can do it, then the hecepob manufacturers could also come out with a quality line. Most of the hobby shop people, in the Chicago area, came to expect that when I purchased a plastic kit, I usually purchased a new razor saw, to do the modifications. To the extent that if I didn't get a new saw, they'd ask. I can make a nylon purse out of a sow's ear(I haven't quite mastered silk yet). There are some kits that do not lend themselves to improvement, and, when they are too expensive to start with, I'll go the scratchbuild route. I still look at all kits, with an eye to what I can make out of them.

Lead me not into temptation ..................I can find it myself

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Monday, September 4, 2006 4:11 PM

I am aware of four wood sailing ship kit manufacturers whose products are designed by people who know what they're doing, and are intended to produce genuine scale models.  Three are long-established American firms:  Model Shipways, Bluejacket, and the recently revived A.J. Fisher.  The other is British:  Caldercraft, aka Jotika.  (Caveat:  I've never seen a Calder kit in the flesh; they aren't widely distributed here in the U.S., and their prices - over $1,000 for the 1/72 scale H.M.S. Victory - are beyond my reach.  But on the basis of their literature and the reviews of their kits that I've read, it's pretty clear that Calder models are high-quality products.

The "Victory Models" line from Amati seems to be a new venture, mostly, if not entirely, headquartered in Britain.  As I understand it, the driving force behind these kits is a designer who used to be affiliated with Calder/Jotika; there's some interesting information about the company, and him, on www.modelshipworld.com .  Amati apparently is supplying the money and the marketing machinery, but little if anything else.  I haven't seen any of these kits either, but if the photos on that website are any indication they occupy a completely different planet than the HECEPOB trash that serious modelers have come to associate with the parent company over the years.

It would be nice to think that the combination of quality products from the U.S. and Britain, plus the ongoing screeches of protest from people like Charlie McDonald and me, are finally leading the HECEPOB companies to mend their sinful ways and either learn what a scale ship model is or go out of business.  That, however, probably is wishful thinking.  But I'll be interested to see what this Artisania Latina H.M.S. Surprise looks like.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Monday, September 4, 2006 12:43 PM
 jtilley wrote:

I've always made it a matter of policy to avoid disagreeing violently with, or criticizing the work of, other members of this Forum.  I don't think that's what it's for.  In this particular case, though, since the gentleman being quoted is not (I assume) a Forum member, I'll take the liberty of offering a personal observation.

No need to apologize for sharing your opinions.  I must confess that I've never built a wooden ship model, but everything I've ever heard or read about the european kitmakers is consistent with your description above.  Its my impression that their market consists of two groups: amateurs fated for disaster and advanced builders who are essentially using the parts as a base for scratchbuilding.

Given that, I wonder if there's any chance they are turning over a new leaf.  Perhaps with competition from Amati and Model Shipways there's starting to be an incentive to build quality kits.  Probably not, but either way I thought it was interesting news and wanted to share.

Dan

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