HMS Surprise- The movie version

Gerarddm wrote:

DanCooper, that's the guy, Gebhard Kammerlander. I found the article: Building The Duke William Using The Kammerlander Method, by Ameil Klein, Seaway's Ships in Scale Jan/Feb 1999, Volume X, Number 1.

Thought so, on the website I also found his name as being responsible for the contents of the site, my guess would be that mr Kammerlander is not an employee for that company, but that he is the founder and/or owner of the company.

Anyway, I'de sure like to see what he would make of a ship of the line with that building method, although I would be scared to have a look at the price if he ever released one of those. 

Hi, I'm new to this forum and I've been reading this thread with great interest. I purchased the Mamoli kit of HMS Surprise a couple of weeks ago and I think it will make a good model. There are some glaring mistakes, mostly in the trim and decrative castings which are not of great quality. The figurehead will take some major refining including massive breast reduction surgery. All in all I'm satisfied.

I've read all the books and enjoyed them very much. I purchased all that were available in 1999 and saved them to read while cruising my 1:1 Scale sloop from San Francisco to Florida. A voyage that lasted more than four years. I aquired the remaing volumes as the became available and was sorry when I came to the end.

Earlier in this thread there was a very good discussion of the author. It reminded me of an article I read in a west coast sailing magazine, Latitude 38, that lends considerable insite as to Mr O'Brian (latitude38.com/features/O'Brian.htm). Well worth the read.

As to the the accuracy of the models. Since this is in fact a fictional vessel I believe, within certain limits as laid down but Mr. O'Brian and the Royal Navy, the final form lies in the imagination of the reader. When reading a book the appearance of the charactors, and the setting are suggested by the author and we the reader fill in the details in our minds. It is one of the wonderful aspects of reading. It is fairly certain that the Surprise of the books was suggested by the real ship HMS Surprise (L'Unite) and modified in some respects by Mr. O'Brian. The picture drawn in the mind of the reader base on their knowledge of ships of the period and the descriptions layed down by the author. This picture will vary from reader to reader and none will be the same. Each builder will see the ship in a slightyly different way and each model will be accurate in the eye of the builder.

I look at my model building as creating a work of art, not a mechanical replication of an object. The final product must be pleasing to the eye and convey a certain impressions and feelings in the viewer much as a painting would.

Just my $.02

The figurehead will take some major refining including massive breast reduction surgery.

   More often than not, figureheads were works of fantasy, and were subject to many different kinds of embellishments. The possibility exists that the casting may be closer to reality than it appears.

I look at my model building as creating a work of art, not a mechanical replication of an object.

   Which makes whatever you choose to do, correct.

sumpter250 wrote:

Which makes whatever you choose to do, correct.

True, to a point. I try to make the model as it would have been built. I conform the rigging to standard practice (as far as is practical), the deck furniture  as per custom and so on. The actual design conforms to what is actually known. I want it to be a good representation of what could have been. I don't build just from whimsey.

Does this make any sense? I hope so.  

As to the figurehead, I believe there is a discription of it somewhere in the books and a very blurry rendition on the jpeg copy I have of the admiralty plans. The one provided is not even close and way out of proportion. 

Dalliance - welcome to the Forum!  I think you'll find some interesting and informative stuff here.  The "Ships" section, it must be admitted, is populated by some rather odd people, but I think most of us are relatively harmless.

Your comments on the new Mamoli Surprise kit are a little disappointing.  On the other hand, perhaps we should give the manufacturer some benefit of the doubt.  It probably wouldn't be reasonable to expect any firm to emerge from the depths of HECEPOB-dom and into the world of serious scale modeling without exhibiting some growing pains.  If Mamoli is making a genuine effort to produce kits that look like real ships, that's a major step in the right direction.

the depths of HECEPOB-dom

So! Atlantis wasn't the only place to sink below the waves, and become lost to reality!

DanCooper wrote:

Gerarddm wrote: DanCooper, that's the guy, Gebhard Kammerlander. I found the article: Building The Duke William Using The Kammerlander Method, by Ameil Klein, Seaway's Ships in Scale Jan/Feb 1999, Volume X, Number 1.   Thought so, on the website I also found his name as being responsible for the contents of the site, my guess would be that mr Kammerlander is not an employee for that company, but that he is the founder and/or owner of the company. Anyway, I'de sure like to see what he would make of a ship of the line with that building method, although I would be scared to have a look at the price if he ever released one of those.

This got me interested, and I had a look at the web site. G. Kammerlander is indeed the owner and founder of "GK Modellbau", and invented his own "system" of building wooden model ships. He offers a nice beginner set for a little boat that includes all necessary materials, including the tools neded for the Kammerlander system of wood bending (essentially a soldering iron with a special tip). Tempting, I never built a model ship in wood... So I took the opportunity and ordered the kit. It arrived this weekend, and looks actually pretty nice and of good quality (well, not that I knew anything about how to judge the quality of wood kits...). If interested, I could present the kit with a few pictures (opening another thread, as this is getting somewhat out of topic here).

SD

If interested, I could present the kit with a few pictures (opening another thread, as this is getting somewhat out of topic here).

   I, for one would be very interested in this. Continuing here, or opening a new thread, is your choice.

This build has been on hold, as another project "took its place". There has been some recent interest in "Surprise", so I thought I'd bring this back up.

Thanks for bumping this back up. Do you have any "before" photos that show what you did to rework the stern gallery/transom area and how it differs from the original "Jolly Roger"? Any idea when you'll get around to finishing the build.

Matt

Unfortunately, no, the first photos posted in this thread, are the earliest that I have. After deciding to use the movie as the "primary source", along with photos of the "rose rebuild", and the "tank model", I removed the original quarter galleries, and cut the original transom, at the gun deck level.  I added side extensions to the gun deck replacement, that were as close as I could determine to the right shape for the new quarter galleries.

The original hull, sectioned, to remove the fifth and sixth gun ports, had only open space left, where the former galleries had been. The new galleries were built up from the deck extensions, and the transom, from the gun deck, up, was built up the same way, in layers of styrene sheet and strip. Based on the HMS Rose/Surprise photos, and modified to fit the "Roger" hull.

I suppose I am guilty of   "common knowledge syndrome", ( if I know it then it must have been common knowledge ). I wasn't intending this to be a tutorial, and I didn't document all the steps.

"Finishing the build":  What has put this on hold, is the building of a new three module set, 30" X 48" each, in HO (1:87) scale. Two of the modules, make up a "Seaport/museum" scene, that will also be a display for several ships, and work boats, in 1/87th, in addition to the tracks for the trains. The models for the modules are giving me the reason to build my own deadeyes, blocks, etc. so that I will have developed some amount of skill needed to rig "Surprise". I'm also getting some practice in on making hand formed wood spars, which I'll have to build, to replace the plastic ones from the kit..

All that, and......rigging the lower deadeyes / chainplates, was beginning to drive me up the wall !  I needed a rest. I have taken some time to read over Lennarth Petersson's "Rigging Period Ship Models", so I'll have some idea of where I'm going with "Surprise" when I take it back up. It's pretty much at the spars and rigging stage, once all the lower deadeys, chainplates, and hull / deck attached ironwork, are done.

Oh, That Star Trek group scratchbuild'09 project,  Star Fleet battleship, USS Kodiac NCC 6000, sneaked  in there too.

I was in San Diego back in 2009 got a bunch of pictures of Surprise and Star of India, click link start on page 3 to see pictures, enjoy.

http://travel.webshots.com/album/573159075MMENHr?start=24

Jake

Nice photos of the Surprise and Star of India. Is the Star a clipper? Seeing your photos of the movie Surprise and reading back through some of this build has got me thinking again about which version I should build when the time comes. Building the movie version has many advantages not the least of which is the movie itself as a reference and all the existing photos of the ship. The problem there is in that the movie ship as I understand it is a compromise between the ship of the books and what was practical to use as a ship that was already out there. I gather from some of the stuff that I've read that there are some substantial differences between The Rose/Surprise and what the "real" Surprise from the books would have looked like. And of course all the debate about whether O'Brien was really basing her off of the actual real Surprise, and even then there are differences between his fictional ship and the real one. Of course you could put the kabosh on all of that by saying your version of Surprise depicts the ship as it appeared in the movie, and in many respects that would be perfectly fine with me. I barely understand enough about the ships of that era, even having read all the O'Brien books, that I would really barely know what I was doing if I was actually trying to build something totally accurate to the ship of the books.

First off, Jake, Thank You for the "captain's cabin, port and starboard". I didn't have those pictures when I started the model, but they would be a great help to anyone wishing to do "The Movie Version".

Framing the galleries, are two large knees each (visible). These provide the support and strength for the deck and transom, that hull planking would do if there were no galleries ( not required, unless the intention is to model the cabin interior ) . Jake's photos should help understanding the construction of the galleries, and, hopefully make the task a bit easier to work through. This model marks the first time I've tried to build quarter galleries, and I'm pleased enough with how they turned out.

On the subject of "common knowledge", I suppose I should offer some apologies, in that, as a model railroader, I had to learn how to model from photographs, as there weren't always plans to reference. I obviously haven't perfected the techniques, but I'm getting there, one step at a time. Working from photos does require some understanding / knowledge of the generic subject. Not so much "what the parts are", but why, and how they are used. Yes, over the years I have "stuffed the trivia bank", with all kinds of "details".

" And of course all the debate about whether O'Brien was really basing her off of the actual real Surprise, and even then there are differences between his fictional ship and the real one. "  What committed me to "The Movie Version " was all the above, plus, I was starting with a "Lindberg Pirate Ship" kit, which carries with it almost as much controversy as the "Book / Real" Surprise. In the end, it's a project more of art and fancy, than fact. ( Then again.........there is a real "Movie Version" ).

"O'Brien is not a reliable source for many technical details (he's not well considered by many sailors for the accuracy/realism of his sailing descriptions)."

In "Post Captain" he puts his hero on an experimental sloop, HMS "Polycrest". Some people went mad trying to recreate her, unaware that O'Brian admitted that he made her up out of whole cloth--nothing even remotely like her, even in the experimental lists--just some features of experimental ships, thrown together.

That's one of the nice things about Forester--he puts his man on a 36, calls it "Lydia" and leaves the rest to you.

Hey Sumpter--

did you ever wrap this project up?  I'm planning to take on this same project, and would love to see where you ended up.

I really love your approach, and your attention to detail here.  Great work!

Charles

Charles, got your question about where I cut the hull. the first cut was at the forward edge of the 5th gun port, and the second cut, removed the next two gun ports, reducing the length of the hull, from the forward edge of the stem, to the aft edge of the rudder, to 11.25". Essentially, I removed the 5th and 6th gun ports. Hope that helps, and good luck.

www.bigbluetrains.com  I use the same name there as here, has info on what has kept me away from here so long. I'm currently rigging a 62' LWL two mast schooner, which will be part of the "Seaport Village and Museum", modeled, in HO scale, on those new modules.

The Lindberg "Brig of War" kit, provided the hull for the Lobster Sloop, in the recent pictures.

Pete--

Thanks again.  Your work over on bigbluetrains is just wonderful and amazing stuff.  Thanks for pointing me over there.  Bookmarked!

Charles