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Looking for info on some old ship kits (Heller etc.)

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  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Monday, July 31, 2006 10:36 PM

I don't have a clear answer for that one.  In the famous color painting of Henry VIII's departure for the Field of the Cloth of Gold, which shows several English warships in quite a bit of detail, four of them have rows of shields (most of them white, with red crosses) hanging on the railings of their forecastles and quarterdecks.  The artist is unknown, but he gives the impression of having known what he was doing.  I just skimmed through the illustrations in what is, to my knowledge, the latest book on the subject, Arthur Nelson's The Tudor Navy, 1485-1603:  The Ships, Men and Organisation.  I couldn't find any other contemporary pictures that clearly show shields on ships.

My inclination is to think that the custom had died out by the time of the Armada, but I could well be mistaken.

Given that the Golden Hind (from what we can tell - which isn't much) was far too small to rate the label "galleon," Revell's stunt is more like reboxing H.M.S. Cossack as the Yamato.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    January 2006
Posted by EPinniger on Monday, July 31, 2006 2:51 PM
Again, many thanks for the information.
I spotted the Revell Elizabethan Man o'War on eBay the other day at a fairly low price, if I'd known it was the Mayflower rather than the Golden Hind I might have bid on it (I already have the Airfix Golden Hind, but have been looking for a Mayflower for a while).

I never realised that there was a smaller Revell "Spanish Galleon" which was a modified Golden Hind! Drake must be turning in his grave - that's like reboxing a Spitfire kit with a sheet of Luftwaffe decals and calling it a "Messerschmitt Bf109" Big Smile [:D] or, more appropriately to the subject of ships, putting a Kriegsmarine ensign on a King George V-class and calling it the Bismarck.

One other question - not really related to the post topic but the description of the Spanish Galleon reminded me - did ships of the 15th/16th century actually carry shields as decoration? The Imai/Lee/Aoshima Spanish Galleon includes decorative shields, and I've heard this kit is quite accurate (certainly compared to the Revell one).
  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Monday, July 31, 2006 6:19 AM

It is indeed complicated.  I think (with help from Dr. Graham's book) I can sort out most of the Revell kits; when it comes to the Heller ones I give up.

The Revell "Yankee Clipper" was just the Flying Cloud in a different box.  (I think even the figurehead was unchanged.)  According to Dr. Graham, it was released in 1973.  (One little curiosity about that kit:  in its first appearance as the Flying Cloud, in 1957, it had a full set of vac-formed "sails" - except that, for some reason, the fore topsail was omitted.  A model built from that kit, with that huge gap in the sail plan, would look pretty silly.  I believe the fore topsail was included in the "Yankee Clipper" reissue.)

The Flying Cloud also, of course, was the basis for the several appearances of kits labeled "Stag Hound."  That was a Revell scam - not quite of the magnitude of the "Beagle" stunt, but close.  The Flying Cloud and Stag Hound bore scarcely any resemblance to each other in reality.

The Golden Hind kit (one of my favorites) got issued by Revell under two other names of which I'm aware:  "Spanish Galleon" in 1974 and "Pirate Ghost Ship" in 1978.  I never bought either of them, but here's what Dr. Graham has to say about them:

H-367 Spanish Galleon with sails.  1974-76....Modified H-325 [sic; should be H-324] Golden Hind with new figurehead, row of shields added to sides, two lanterns on stern, and new stern carving.  Cross, saint decals for sails.

H-519 Pirate Ghost Ship.  1978....Skull-and-crossbones decals for sails.  Glow in the dark paint.  This is the H-324 Golden Hind (1965).

Both those reissues obviously were marketing stunts.  The Golden Hind was no more a Spanish galleon than H.M.S. Cossack was a Japanese battleship.

The "Elizabethan Man-o-War" was a reissue of the smaller of the two Mayflower kits.  Dr. Graham says the following about it:

H-389.  Elizabethan Man-O-War with sails.  1975-77...."E.R." decals for sails.  String for rigging.  This is the Mayflower without its lifeboat and with twelve cannon added.  Reissue of H-327 (1966).

I believe the original carved flower on the transom also was removed.  That one isn't quite as unreasonable as the others.  "Man-o-war" is such a vague term that it's meaningless; the ship in question pretty obviously is a merchantman, but plenty of ships of that description got pressed into service during the Armada campaign.  It's conceivable that a ship of the period just might have looked something like that.

Beware:  the Revell Flying Cloud, Golden Hind, and Mayflower all have appeared at one time or another in Heller boxes.  Our good friend Michel vrtg has alerted us that Heller reissued the Golden Hind under a particularly bizarre name as a "corsair," or something of that nature.  I sometimes wonder how the conscientious artisans who designed the original Revell kits felt when they saw their creations bowdlerized by all those reissues, which, in many cases, amounted to downright deceptive advertising.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    January 2006
Posted by EPinniger on Monday, July 31, 2006 3:11 AM
I'm just going to make the completed database available for (free) download when it's finished.
I thought it would be a useful resource to ship modellers, as the world of plastic sailing ship kits seems to be so complicated (many kits which are modified or simply renamed examples of other ones, and countless reboxings of one manufacturer's kits by another manufacturer), it would be handy to have some way of finding out exactly what is in a given kit box. It should also be useful as a guide to what kits are out there (I'll probably also include an indication of the kit's rarity/availability)

Your forum name reminds me of another kit question I had. Is the Revell "Yankee Clipper" kit a unique tooling, or a modification/reboxing of the Flying Cloud or Cutty Sark kits? I suspect the latter.
Another Revell question - is their "Elizabethan Man o'War" a modification of the Golden Hind kit? (Not to be confused with the larger "English Man o'War", which is a modification of the "Spanish Galleon" kit. You see what I mean about things being complicated...)

Anyway, thanks to everyone for the advice on the Heller kits. Is it really the case that Heller re-used the same hull for the large 4-masted clipper Belle Etoile in 1/250, and the small schooners Alcyon, Fauvette and Capricorne in 1/150? I thought the Etoile's hull looked rather strange, this would explain why!

  • Member since
    September 2004
  • From: Texas
Posted by Yankee Clipper on Sunday, July 30, 2006 1:34 PM
Curious as to what you are going to do with the data base. Is it for personal use or are you going to market it?
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Friday, July 28, 2006 9:14 PM

Phenix and Sirene have the same hulls. Stern castle decorations were different. Indomptable and Gladiateur(sp?), have the same hull.

Fauvette is a beauty. 

 

 

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: Seattle, WA
Posted by Surface_Line on Friday, July 28, 2006 8:45 PM
Yup - they reused that hull.  Alcyon, Fauvette and also the clipper Belle Etoile.  You really have to marvel at using the same hull for a small schooner like Alcyon and a large clipper.  Like you say, they just used different bulwarks above the waterline.

None is a terribly accurate representation of a type of ship, but the boxart on each was gorgeous.

I still haven't fished these kits out of my storage room to re-examine, but I remember them well.

The Epervier was just plain junk.  I think it dated from the 60's, while the hull-sharing group dated from early 70's.  A different set of artisans were responsible.  Epervier was so old it didn't have the spiffy loom for shrouds & ratlines.  They were injection-molded plastic.

The early 70's were the time that heller gave us a TON of beautiful boxart - and I can't remember exactly which bigger ones shared hulls.

There were three or four smaller ships including the Galion and a cople others that I don't recognize at http://www.quuxuum.org/rajens_list/rajen.html#Heller.  I think Aurora only picked up one of those in 1976.

Then there were the beautiful and fanciful Royal Louis, l' Indomptable, La Sirene and le Phenix.  They shared two different hulls, but I don't remember which were the pairs.  Again, beautiful, inspiring boxart, but nothing particularly accurate for any real ship.  Aurora boxed three of those - all but l' Indomptable?

La Tartane was a much later kit (late 70's), and the built example I have seen looked very nice,  though it wasn't my cup of tea.

I loved those kits.  In the boxes.  And with the boxart visible, on the wall.

Rick

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Friday, July 28, 2006 1:27 PM

ok. I will email you some photos.

Here is something funny. Alcyon has the same hull as Fauvette. Alcyon looks like a 22gun schooner and Fauvette is a turn of the old century steam yacht. Same hull. Different bulkheads.

Hey, I have a number of photos to post or send but do not know how to do so within this FSM forum.

What to do?

 

 

 

 

 

 

  • Member since
    January 2006
Posted by EPinniger on Friday, July 28, 2006 9:35 AM
Many thanks to everyone for the help!

More information on the Heller Alcyon would be useful. What type of ship is it (i.e hull and rig type)?
I've never heard of the Capricorne before, I wonder how many other old obscure Heller kits there are out there which I also don't know about!
  • Member since
    January 2006
  • From: istanbul/Turkey
Posted by kapudan_emir_effendi on Friday, July 28, 2006 5:20 AM
Hello,

I think I can give some informartion about Kruzenshtern and Goto Predestinatsiya.

Both are products of "Model Russia", a soviet era company which produced some hallmark ships of Russian navy. There is a third model, the Orel which completes the series. The scale is not 1/200 but 1/96 for both predestinatsiya and orel.

Orel was the first "modern" warship of russia. She was built by dutch shipwrights in 1667 for service in Dinyeper river. She was a pinnace, a small kind of a war galleon.

Goto Predestinatsiya was a more significant ship. She was ordered by Peter the Great in 1699 and was built by venetian shipwrights at Azov. She was identical to a venetian nave da secondo rango, second rate battleship of the line and carried 58 guns. She was the first ship of the permanent russian navy and served throught azov campaigns of the great tsar against the Ottoman Empire. However, with the treaty of passarowitz in 1718, Tsar Peter was forced to give azov back to Ottoman Empire along with whole of the Azov fleet including Predestinatsiya. I tried to trace the fate of the ship from Turkish archives thereafter but I failed.

Those models are rather simplistic in detail but proportionate. I once had the Predestinatsiya but had to sell in a time of direness when I was well broke Smile [:)] Maybe I should rebuy one.

best wishes
Don't surrender the ship !
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, July 27, 2006 12:27 PM

I created an album to show you what is in the "God's predestination" box.

All the instructions are in cyrillic language, unfortunately the figurehead (a lion) was missing in my box.

Maybe I am wrong, but I think I can read "ogoniek" as manufacturer in the instructions.

http://www.hmsvictoryscalemodels.be/GodsPredestinationVRTG/index.html

Note, that I'll just leave the pictures during some weeks in my website, so feel free to download them, while they are there.

This is not a small model, it is at least as large as the "series 9" Airfix HMS Victory.

Michel

 

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, July 27, 2006 11:53 AM

Amphitrite- Genuine vessel. Links to info and models.

 http://www.modelarstwo.org.pl/_OLD/szkutnicze/zestaw/heller

http://www.segelschiff-amphitrite.de/amphitrite.html/amphitrite/index.html

 and http://www.jasper-moeller.de/galleries/Schiffe/Amphitrite/index.html

Feast yourself in the gallery http://www.modelarstwo.org.pl/_OLD/szkutnicze/zaglowce/galeria.html for other plastic sailings ships and some wood.

Alcyon- Box says Slaver Hunter from 1820s. I will email you an image of the box art and components if  you like. Looks like Capricorne but with recessed gunports & different masting arrangment. Capricorne = Slaver, Alycon = Slaver Hunter. Convenient.

Neither appears as anything but genuine Heller products.

 

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, July 27, 2006 11:21 AM

I have the God's Predestination model.  This is not new, maybe I bought it 15 years ago, I'll try to take some pictures and show you.  It seems to be a nice, large model, but I do not know its origin.  Also, it would be good to find her Russian name (Predestynia, or something like that) to type a search, I remember I saw plans of this vessel available somewhere.

I could see Kruzenshtern in 2004, here are some pictures of her :

http://gallery.drydockmodels.com/Kruzenshtern

Somewhere in this forum, there must be a topic about La Tartane.

Michel

 

  • Member since
    January 2006
Posted by EPinniger on Thursday, July 27, 2006 9:49 AM
Any information would be handy -  ship type and era, quality/accuracy of the kit, whether it's a modification of another kit in the manufacturer's range, etc.

There are a number of kits from Pyro, Lindberg etc. I'm also looking for info on, but I'll sort out a list of these later.
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, July 27, 2006 5:55 AM

1/150 Amphitrite
1/150 Alcyone

I have these two. What do you wish to know regarding the kits?

 

 

  • Member since
    March 2006
Posted by jwintjes on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 5:26 PM
 jtilley wrote:

Good luck.  It's certainly a worthwhile project.



I definitely second that! If you want, I can dig up the information I collected over some time (which is of a fragmentary nature, but might be useful anyway) over the weekend (when I'll finally have some time for doing anything as the term comes to an end...).

As for the Krusenstern, she's actually the former German Flying P-Liner Padua; she went to the Soviet Union after WW2.

Jorit
  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 4:26 PM

The only one I can discuss on the basis of personal experience is the 1/75 La Reale.  It's not a galleon; it's a beautiful model of a seventeenth-century French galley.  In my opinion it's just about the best sailing ship kit Heller ever made.  I believe it's in the current Heller catalog.

I haven't seen any of the Ogoniek kits, but I have seen a ship named Kruzenshtern.  (The spelling varies a bit, due to different systems of transliteration.)  She is an enormous, steel-hulled, four-masted barque, the current training ship (or at least she was the last time I saw her) for the Russian Navy (or maybe it's the Russian merchant marine).  I imagine the model is of that ship - but there may have been other vessels of the same name.

Good luck.  It's certainly a worthwhile project.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    January 2006
Looking for info on some old ship kits (Heller etc.)
Posted by EPinniger on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 3:29 PM
I'm currently compiling a database of existing plastic model kits of sailing ships (I'm also working on a database for large-scale warship kits, but that's another story!), which will include information on scale, accuracy, availability, re-issues by other manufacturers, etc.
Amongst other references I'm using Rajen's Ship Kit List (http://www.quuxuum.org/rajens_list/rajen.html) to find out what kits are out there, but this list has very little information on most sailing ship kits other than the name and (usually) scale/size. Hence there are quite a few kits which I need more information on.

Starting with the Heller kits, here are some which I've never seen, know nothing about and would appreciate more information on! I believe the first 5 are 19th century clippers. The La Reale is listed as a galleon in the aforementioned kit list.

1/150 Amphitrite
1/150 Alcyone
1/150 Le Tartane
1/200 Epervier
1/250 Belle Etoile
1/75 La Reale de France

I actually have the Belle Etoile kit, but unfortunately the kit's box and instructions has no information at all on the ship, and I can't find any information via searching the Internet. This makes me wonder whether it might be a fictitious ship along the lines of the La Sirene, Gladiateur etc.? It's a 4-masted barque with a very streamlined hull shape.

There are also 4 (relatively) recently released kits produced by the Russian manufacturer Ogoniek (may also have been re-boxed by other Russian manufacturers). Again, all I've seen of these kits is the box art, so I'd appreciate any information on them (accuracy, quality, scale etc.). They are:

1/200 Tovarisch (same ship as the Gorch Fock, could be a copy of the Revell kit?)
1/200? Kruzenshtern (19th-century barque)
1/100? Orel (18th-century frigate?)
1/100? God's Predestination (18th-century ship of the line)
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