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Heller Le Glorieux and Le Superbe

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  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Monday, March 26, 2007 9:18 PM

The Victory is a tremendously valuable guide to scholars and modelers - one of the most valuable historical artifacts in existence.  But she's not a 100% reliable guide to the more subtle aspects of the appearance of real sailing ships.

She's been replanked several times since the end of her active service, and the unfortunate realities of money and available materials have forced some big compromises with reality.  Another concern of the preservationists is their desire to keep her basic structural fabric as intact as possible.  Her lower masts, for instance, are steel tubes, and are not stepped on the keelson; iron rods welded to the masts go through the hull planking on either side of the keel and are imbedded in the concrete of the drydock.  (That's an extremely intelligent solution to the problems that would otherwise result from the huge forces of the rigging bearing on the keel assembly.)  As I understand it, the wales on her sides are formed by relatively thin layers of wood fastened to the exterior of the hull planking.  (The originals, of course, were huge pieces of timber - of the sort that would be prohibitively expensive today - fastened directly to the frames, with the "common plank" laid between them.)  The pieces of the original wales were shaped in the "anchor stock" pattern; the current ones - unless they've been changed since the last time I saw her, which admittedly was quite a few years ago - are not.  The reconstructed parts of the ship are full of compromises like that.  Virtually all preserved and replica ships operate that way; the people who run them quickly discover that there just isn't any choice. 

In the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries the usual way to plank a ship's hull (and deck, for that matter) was to bevel the edges of the planks, deliberately leaving a gap of an inch or so (maybe a bit less) between them on the exterior surface.  After the planks had been laid, the caulker - a highly trained specialist, probably with several apprentices helping him - forced his caulking material (usually a mixture of old rope, oakum, and tar, kept heated in a pot) into the gap.  The result was that the joints between the planks, especially in an unpainted hull, were in fact quite conspicuous.  (Nineteenth-century photographs of ships on the launching ways often show the hull planking seams quite clearly, even when reproduced pretty small.)  A coat of paint, of course, would make the seams much less conspicous.  Whether the caulking would protrude slightly above the surface or be recessed slightly below it is an interesting question.  I guess that may have varied, depending on how old the caulking job was, how the ship was working - and even the temperature, which might, I suppose, make the caulking swell a little.

How the planking seams ought to be represented on a model is, in my firm opinion, one of the many decisions that need to be left to the individual modeler.  Model aircraft enthusiasts confront a similar problem.  The grooves marking the edges of "metal panels" on even the finest Tamiya and Hasegawa 1/72-scale aircraft kits are, strictly speaking, grossly out of scale.  If they were enlarged to full size the mechanics would be in danger of tripping over them.

My personal opinion is that, except on extremely small scales (smaller than 1/16"=1'), a hull with no visible planking seams doesn't look right.  (Many of the best, and most well-known, ship modelers seem to agree with me.  Donald McNarry, who, if I were forced to bestow such titles, probably would get my vote for the title best ship modeler in the world, painstakingly mounts individual planks on models as small as 1/600 scale.)  But to each his (or her) own.  I've seen some mighty handsome and well-detailed models with no planking seams.

My bigger complaint with those two Heller ships of the line concerns the lack of deck camber.  Their decks are perfectly flat - a mistake that's pretty hard to excuse and harder to fix.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    January 2006
  • From: istanbul/Turkey
Posted by kapudan_emir_effendi on Friday, May 11, 2007 6:05 AM

Here is a superb article about the Téméraire class 74 gunners to which heller's Superbe belongs. A full list of her 106 sisterships are also given:

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%C3%A9m%C3%A9raire_%28bateau%29

 

 

 

Don't surrender the ship !
  • Member since
    January 2006
Posted by EPinniger on Friday, May 11, 2007 11:26 AM
As I mentioned in another post, I've recently bought the Le Superbe kit and am very impressed by its level of detail and fine moulding, apart from the overscale wood grain mentioned by other posters. I also have all the alternate parts for Glorieux in my spares box.
I have had thoughts of converting the kit to represent a captured French ship in the Royal Navy, possibly HMS Implacable - which, as far as I know, was a ship of the same design as the Superbe - the Duguay Trouin) whose stern gallery is displayed in the Greenwich Maritime Museum. I'm thinking that using the transom moulding from Superbe (plainer in appearance and fairly close to that of Implacable from what I remember) and a different figurehead would be a start. Anyone know what figurehead Implacable had? The one from Heller's Glorieux kit is a crowned lion's head which looks similar to that used on some RN ships in the late 18th century. (Alternatively a simple billet- or fiddle-head would be fairly easy to carve).

Is this conversion a practical idea, or not? Would any changes to the deck furniture, rigging, armament etc. be needed to represent a captured RN "74" (not necessarily the Implacable)?
  • Member since
    December 2002
Posted by rayers on Friday, May 11, 2007 12:46 PM

EPinniger, where did you find your Superbe kit? I have been looking for this kit for some time and can't find it anywhere except perhaps on Ebay. I would imagine that it is more available in Europe, but like you I can't afford the shipping for most kits from the UK, France or Germany. I drastically overpaid for the Susquehanna kit I bought on eBay from a gentleman in Britain, but that was a kit I absolutely had to have.

It seems that Heller kits, and especially the sailing ship kits, are extremely hard to find in the US, and when you can find them anywhere the shipping costs are quite high. Since most postage is charged by weight and not by size, charging $20 or more for shipping seems like gouging. I was able to find the 1/200 Royal Louis and will probably work on that at some point, but would like to do a 74 in a larger size before I tackle a three-decker in a smaller scale.

  • Member since
    January 2006
Posted by EPinniger on Friday, May 11, 2007 3:09 PM
I live in the UK and Airfix, Heller, Revell Germany and Eastern European/Russian kits are plentiful here. I bought the Superbe on eBay from a UK seller and paid about £25 including shipping. I think it is still in production, or at least still available at retail, and costs about £30-35.
I have your problem in reverse, though - Lindberg, Pyro, Monogram, Aurora and Revell US kits (those that haven't been issued by Revell Germany) are hard to find here, and when the kits are out of production and rare in the first place, it makes finding them a tricky job. I usually buy them on eBay US but the shipping costs are often prohibitive.

The Superbe kit is a big box however, and quite heavy; I'm not surprised it costs about $20 to ship across the Atlantic via air-mail. I do a lot of selling on eBay as well as buying, and many of my items are bought by overseas buyers, so am fairly familiar with shipping costs.

I have noticed quite a few Heller sailing ship kits when browsing eBay US in the past, so if you're patient you might find a Superbe or Glorieux. I definitely recommend either of these kits if you're interested in sailing warships of this period - other than the wood grain and deck grain problems they're among the best available.
  • Member since
    December 2002
Posted by rayers on Friday, May 11, 2007 5:52 PM

EP --

The figurehead of the Implacable is at the NMM in Greenwich along with the stern gallery. I found a picture on the NMM website:

Figurehead of the HMS Implacable

Here's the link... the NMM websire has another b/w picture of the figurehead from a different angle. http://www.nmm.ac.uk/server/show/conWebDoc.219

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