Revell 1:96 Constitution and United States

A few weeks ago a letter was posted on the ModelWarships.com site from an Edward Zimmerman who says he is the "founder/President of the USS United States Foundation."   Most of the letter is a very strident complaint against Revell and Monogram for their smaller scale Constitution kits that have been released, unmodified, as the United States.   The one exception he makes is for the Revell 1/96 issue, which at least made an attempt to represent the different stern configuration.   His letter states in part:

"In, or about, the year 1976, the Revell model company produced a 1:96 scale version of the frigate USS UNITED STATES, designated as kit number H-396. This kit had a roundhouse and poop deck with a balustrade on the stern of the model. This structure was witnessed on the original frigate by the journal of First Officer, Lt. John Mulowney; by Nathaniel Parker Willis in his "Summer Cruise in the Mediterranean"; by Ordinary Seaman and "Moby Dick" author Herman Melville in his "Journal of A Cruise...In the Frigate UNITED STATES", and by USMC Cpl Edward W. Taylor in his journal "Pacific Ocean Campaign 1842 - 1844". The structure was well documented and known as "lofty" and it could hold as many as two quadrilles of dancers. A well known author on naval architecture, Howard I. Chapelle, has also recognized the roundhouse, poop deck, rail and drift on his drawings "on UNITED STATES only". "

The entire thread can be read here:

http://www.shipmodels.info/mwphpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=16110

The as-built profile of Constitution in Chapelle's History of the American Sailing Navy does show dashed lines representing a raised poop with railings and two-level quarter galeries for United States.   The railings Chapelle draws are much lower than what is depicted on the Revell model. Unfortunately, there is no plan view.  

There is a plan view of the United States' spar deck in Donald Canney's Sailing Warships of the US Navy.   Dated "1830's" and drawn at the Charleston Navy Yard, it shows no poop deck at all, only small curved-wall structures at the corners of the stern inside of the quarter galleries.   These look like they could be enclosures to allow continued use of the upper level of the quarter galleries as heads.   The lack of a poop deck in the 1830s would, however, be in direct conflict with Melville and others, unless it was rebuilt at a later date. 

Well here she is, don't judge me too harshly as at the time I stopped building her she was very much work in progress.

I had started to fine down the Poop rail which originally was much coarser than as seen. It is not fixed as yet to the Poop deck

I decide to add a skylight to the Poop deck, this is not on the original model.

The gun port lids were modified to the half opening style that fitted around the cannon barrels, and the kit cannon were replaced with brass ones.

I hope this gives some idea of the kit differences, but having seen her again after a long time, I still think the original 'Constitution' is better

Go for it GeorgeW ! Got me curious now. Climb your loft and get clicking Sir !

Julian

Information about the 'United States' particularly how she looked is somewhat thin, as part of my research into the vessel I read 'White Jacket', by Hermann Melville, who served on the ship in 1849. The book is a fictional account, but based on his service on the ship and he does mention the round house.

The book is an interesting read but is otherwise of limited value in modelling terms.

It was the lack of reasonable evidence of the appearance of the ship that basically caused me to lose interest in the Revell model, also that additional hamper on the stern didn't appeal aesthetically to my eye, it rather ruins the lines in my opinion.

At least with 'Constitution' there is a wealth of information available, to produce a model that one can reasonably say represents the ship.

Given the interest in this subject I will retrieve the model from my loft and post some pics of the stern.

Steves - I see what you mean about the quarter gallery windows.  I imagine there also were differences in the transom ornamentation, and the bow ornamentation certainly looks less ornate than the interpretation in the Revell kit.  I rather suspect, though, that a Constitution kit with the name on the transom changed, and no other modification, would look more like the President than the Revell United States kit looks like the real United States.

Scottrc - Wow, that's a new one to me!  But the more I think about it, the more I think it might well be true.  Chapelle is rather vague about that "roundhouse" arrangement; he says it existed, but that's about all.  The new biography of Decatur, by Leonard F. Guttridge (a long overdue book if ever there was one), doesn't say anything about this point one way or the other - but it's not the sort of book that necessarily would.  I've looked at several contemporary pictures showing the battle between the United States and the Macedonian; such prints are far from 100% reliable, but it's noteworthy that none of them shows a second level of transom or quarter galleries on the United States.  As a matter of fact, I can't recall having seen them in any pictorial rendition of her, other than the drawing in Chapelle's History of the American Sailing Navy - and Chapelle makes it clear that his rendition is based mainly on guesswork. 

If, indeed, the "roundhouse" was removed prior to 1812, the Revell kit looks even worse.  On the other hand...Revell also reissued its smaller, older Constitution with the name "United States" on it.  As I understand it, the only changes Revell made this time were to change the Andrew Jackson figurehead to a simple billethead, and to alter the name on the transom.  The original, small, Constitution kit represented the ship in her configuration of the 1830s or thereabouts.  I'd always assumed the omission of the "roundhouse" made it an utterly bogus United States.  But if the roundhouse was removed before 1812, maybe that smaller kit actually isn't so bad - as a replica of the United States in the 1830s.

Fascinating, if trivial, stuff.

Awesome stuff.  This is a most informative thread.  There is a United States on Ebay right now.  I'm anticipating it will approach $100 or more.

Grymm

jtilley wrote:

The real United States did have a "roundhouse," otherwise known as a raised poop deck; she was intended to serve as the flagship of the newly-created U.S. Navy, with a supernumerary commodore embarked, and the "roundhouse" was supposed to house his quarters.  No surviving plans indicate how that structure was actually built.  If I remember correctly, there is at least one photograph of the ship (taken shortly before the Civil War, in which she met her end), but it's no help; the after part of her is blocked out by another ship in the foreground.

A version of the story about the "upper stern galley" that I know of is that it was added sometime right before Decator took command.  The current captain wanted quarters for his wife and servants and had the second galley added.  Part of the story went to where he justified the added costs was that he was to also carry a commodore and his family to the Mediterranian so the ship needed the added accomodation.  THis cruise never materialized but the new galley was built.  When Steven Decator took command, he hated how the added weight of the new structure destoyed the sailing qualities of the ship so he had it removed.  A 

jtilley wrote:

Howard I. Chapelle published a tracing of those plans in two of his books, The History of American Sailing Ships and The History of the American Sailing Navy.

The original Admiralty draughts for President (along with many others) are also reproduced in Robert Gardiner's book Warships of the Napoleonic Era.    

There are differences in the quarter gallery windows that would need to be addressed in a Constitution to President conversion.

According to Dr. Graham's book about the history of Revell, the big United States kit was released in 1977 and stayed in the Revell catalog through 1980.  He gives its current (i.e., 2004) value as $60-70.  I have the impression that it's not particularly rare; you probably could find one someplace like e-bay.

The real United States did have a "roundhouse," otherwise known as a raised poop deck; she was intended to serve as the flagship of the newly-created U.S. Navy, with a supernumerary commodore embarked, and the "roundhouse" was supposed to house his quarters.  No surviving plans indicate how that structure was actually built.  If I remember correctly, there is at least one photograph of the ship (taken shortly before the Civil War, in which she met her end), but it's no help; the after part of her is blocked out by another ship in the foreground.

I never bought the kit, and I can't recall having actually examined it, but on the basis of photos I'm inclined to agree with George.  By 1977 Revell clearly had lost interest in serious scale models of sailing ships - and was struggling to stay in business.  This particular stunt bears all the earmarks of a half-baked attempt to squeeze a few extra sales out of a 12-year-old kit, with minimal additional investment.  I suspect the wonderful artisans who were responsible for the excellent sailing ship kits back in the good ol' days had long since left the company.  The reworking of the Constitution's stern, to turn the kit into a passable replica of the United States, looks like it was carried out by people who had only a vague idea of what they were doing.

There were three ships in that "class":  United States, Constitution, and President.  If you have some reason for wanting to build two of them, converting the Constitution into the President would be quite practical.  The President did not have a "roundhouse."  She was, in fact, the only one of the three for which a reliable set of contemporary plans exist that show her in her War of 1812 configuration.  (When the British captured her they took off her lines.)  Howard I. Chapelle published a tracing of those plans in two of his books, The History of American Sailing Ships and The History of the American Sailing Navy.  They show a ship that looks almost exactly like the Revell Constitution kit.  The name on the stern obviously would have to go, but little else would need to be changed.  As a matter of fact, I think one of the ship modeling guides published by Kalmbach contains a chapter on that conversion.

The value of that particular ship, to me, is a lot higher than you would think.  As far as shipping costs go, email me pstanfield38@aol.com and let me know.

And if worse came to worse, I have family everywhere from Manchester to London.  My mother was British... 

Grymm

I rather think Grymm that the cost of shipping the model from the UK to USA would far exceed the worth of the thing.

If you're curious to see what the stern looks like, the next time I venture into the loft I'll get it down and photo it.

So then, the hull halves themselves are the Constitution, with additions to the stern.  Interesting. 

You know, if that United States of yours is just going to stay in storage, perhaps I could take it off your hands somehow?   I'm always looking for kits to bring to light....Let me know.

 Grymm

I have this model, it is for all practical purposes a 'Constitution' with an extra stern gallery and Qtr gallery built on the after end of the Qtr deck.

Revell refer to it as a round house, and the result is a Poop deck on the after end of the ship.

The rail surrounding the Poop deck is a crude affair looking far too heavy for the model, another example I think of what John Tilley refers to as a manufacturers marketing ploy, cashing in on existing moulds, and producing something less satisfactory than the original.

Although my model is completed to the hull stage, It is destined to stay that way 'laid up in ordinary' in the loft as I have little interest in completing it.

I would suggest one is far better sticking with the original 'Constitution'