Graf spee and Gneisenau

http://www.deutschland-class.dk/admiral_graf_spee/miscellanous/admiral_graf_spee_stern_eagle.html

Regarding the eagle on the stern of the Graf Spee. 

Check out this link.

It should clear up any misgivings about the eagle on the stern of the Graf Spee.

When seen from the side it is correct.

But I do agree with you that when view from below the wings seam different and it could be mistaken for a different eagle.

This is because of the shape of the stern.

Regards,

Beau.

Hi

As a footnote, in early WWII, it was rumored that Japan was building their own versions of the German "Pocket Battleships". So the U.S. Navy responded in kind with the Large Heavy Cruisers of the "Alaska class", designed with 9-12" guns to hunt the new Japanese threat. However it only turned out to be a ruse, Japan never built them. As it turned out the Japanese never considered the role of commerce raiders, nor did they order their subs to attack merchant ships. Straingly enough the Japanese thought of attacking merchant ships to be "unhonorable", and  an act of cowardice. They ordered their subs to only attack warships, strainge considuring how they started the war in the Pacific, with a surprise attack.

Steve H.

Good post, Steve, but the surprise attack on Pearl Harbor was against a military target so it fits into the "code of Bushido."  Even the most die-hard Japanese nationalist would have been shocked and offended by the al-Quaeda attacks of 9/11/2001. 

Starting a war with a surprise attack was a Japanese habit, they did it to the Russians in 1904 at Port Arthur, and probably at other points in their history which doesn't fall into the realm of my so-called knowledge. 

Hi

The Japanese also started a war before Russia in the 1880's with China and Korea in the 1890's. Other war where also started by pre-emtive strikes, but Russia and the Allies of WWII are the most famous.

Steve H.

Some modern Nationalists, perhaps.  But if such scruples exist amongst modern nationalists in Japan, it would not be because of any observance of any strictures of Bushido code as was recognized during WWII.     Bushido does not seem to have effectively taught that the attack on civilians is wrong.  It instead seems to have fostered the notion that attacks on civilians is so easy that you don’t show your mettle by doing it.   There is a huge difference between teaching that civilian life, even enemy civilian life, is valuable, and teaching that enemy civilian life is so worthless that you loose face by wasting your time to go out of your way to kill them instead of doing more useful things.   Evidence points strongly to latter as the true fruit of WWII Japanese observance of Bushido.  If there is any hint at all that killing civilians could bring Japanese the most remote advantage, Japan of WWII never showed any compunction and always erred on the side of killing way too many.

The Japanese militarists of WWII would have condemned the 9-11 attack for not killing military personnel.  But they would not have condemned the death of 2000 civilians from the 9-11 attack.   They would not have lost face by exhibiting any shameful weakness in deigning to notice a thing as trivial as the death of some enemy civilians.

anthony2779 wrote:

How would have Graf Spee done against a Takao or Myoko class ?

She could have won, but only if she scored key hits early in the contest.  Graf Spee's bigger guns gave her greater range, and German ships were noted for their superior range-finding equipment, giving her greater accuracy as well.  But the Takao's superior speed would have closed the range pretty quickly, so unless Graf Spee scored hits that slowed her opponent down early on, the Takao's ten 8-inch guns could have easily out-pummelled Graf Spee's six 11-inch guns.  I'm sure someone else can, and probably will, work up some numbers showing total weight of each ship's salvo, and a Graf Spee salvo might outweigh a Takao salvo - but the Takao with more guns would have a greater chance of scoring a hit with any given salvo, thus weakening her opponent more quickly than the Graf Spee - all other aspects of the battle being equal.

Of course, this could just be another example of me thinking it makes perfect sense when there are a thousand reasons why it couldn't possibly be so.  But I've lived with that possibility for years now - why stop now? 

Beau Mansfield wrote:

http://www.deutschland-class.dk/admiral_graf_spee/miscellanous/admiral_graf_spee_stern_eagle.html   Regarding the eagle on the stern of the Graf Spee.  Check out this link. It should clear up any misgivings about the eagle on the stern of the Graf Spee. When seen from the side it is correct. But I do agree with you that when view from below the wings seam different and it could be mistaken for a different eagle. This is because of the shape of the stern.   Regards,   Beau.

Thanks for providing this link, Beau. The eagle appearred to me to resemble a cormorant drying its wings in the other museum shots. It is interesting that the swastika is being so prominently exhibited. I don't have a problem with it, but could understand where others might.

I think it would be a near draw, with odds slightly favoring the Japanese.   Not because Takao is more likely to win, I think the odds of winning is about even.  But Takao was much faster and can run and avoiding being sunk if things starts to go badly.   Graf Spee would not have that option and she faces a bigger change of being hunted down and sunk if things go badly.

A couple things ....

First, Steve H. .... congrats on making it through your surgery and I hope you are recovering well.

Now ... backing waaaaaaaaaaaaay up to the question about what kind of ship the Graf Spee is ... it's a moot point to try and classify this class of heavily armed and lightly armored ships.  Germany deliberately created something of an anomoly in order to skirt the various treaties she wa bound by, including Versailles and then the Washington Naval Treaty.  By building ships that could arguably fall into several categories ... heavy cruiser, battlecruiser, Battleship or whatever ... they made it difficult for others to prove they were in any kind of violation.  Of course, they eventually dropped the facade altogether and put the Z Plan into effect, building their legendary giants of WWII.