Graf spee and Gneisenau

if the bad boy is the graf spee then the only real battle besides sinking a number of merchant ships was "the battle of the river plate". she was just a 1 "battle" ship.

What about some Wow! you guys really know your ship

What about battles that the bad boy fought in?

Graf Spee was one of those construction anomolies that became hard to categorize in the WW2 era. If compared to the pre-dreadnought battleships of the late 1890s and early 20th century he was a formidable opponent. He and his classmates could also have outrun if not outfought the early dreadnoughts. There were also many second class or coastal battleships still in service in the years between the world wars, through WW2. Among others, the Swedes and Finns employed them. They were armed similarly to the Graf Spee but were much slower. The UK used monitors during WW2 for coastal bombardment, this was a slow, ungainly class of barge-like ships with heavy guns. So it can be quite confusing to categorize many of the ships of the period. The USN did its own share of this with the Alaska class of "large cruisers" as they were categorized. Many consider this class to be America's only completed battlecruisers. Scharnhorst and Gneisenau were really under gunned battleships similar in protection and armament to the French Dunkerque and Strasbourg or some of the older Italian ships. As much as we all like to be able to come up with nice little niches that fit our preconceptions of what ships should be or fit our national prejudices of what they should be or look like it is far more productive to look at the intended mission of the vessel in question. Graf Spee was clearly a commerce raider never inteded to slug it out with any other large naval vessel. He was supposed to hit merchant ships and run away causing the target navy to expend slim resources protecting commerce. Ships of this type could cause trouble and expense far out of proportion to their actual value in combat. This is the usual strategy of a country with a small navy unable to take on the larger navy of its opponents.

The Graf Spee, Admiral Scheer and Deutschland were designated "Panzerschiff" by the Germans.  the British referred to them as "Pocket Battleships" in reference to their relatively diminutive size (they could fit in your pocket).  After the Graf Spee was scuttled at Montevideo, when it was realized that this class of warship was far from invincible, Hitler ordered the Deutschland renamed (to Lutzow), so that no ship named after the nation of Germany could ever be sunk.

They were intended to be commerce raiders - able to outgun or outrun any merchant ship, escort, or "Q-ship" (heavily-armed ship disguised as a cargo ship) they were likely to encounter. 

Basically yes, The Graf Spee had large calibre guns on a 12000 tons standard displacement. Calling her a Battleship because of the size of the guns was a bit generous. Most Battleships carried guns larger.& had done since before the First World War. Something had to be sacrificed to get 6 11" guns onto a ship this small & a lot of it came from armour, or a distinct lack of. She only had a belt 80mm thick, which in naval gunfire terms, left her very vulnerable.

Look at the damage that the British Cruisers inflicted on her at the Battle of the River Plate. Two were 6" cruisers & 1 was an 8" cruiser. She also wasn't the quickest ship in the world at 28 knots. At least 2 knots slower than a regular cruiser & about all she could outrun were the Royal Navy First World War vintage Battleships.

Had her or any of her sisters run into one of the British Battlecruisers or the KGV's, it would have been a very one sided fight. Too slow to run away, heavilly outgunned & armour that could be easily penetrated.

When they sunk the Gneisenau as a blockship in 1945, she was already pretty much a wreck. RAF bombers had caught her in dock in 1942 & the fire that resulted burned out a large part of the ship. Do agree though that the Scarnhost/Gneisenau were beautiful ships.

 

Pocket battleship? whats that, is it a small class battleship?

One of my favorite and best battlecruiser made is Revell Gneisenau, a real german beauty.

More heavily arme than the Graf spee, but its long thin body made it fast, then it must be a battlecruiser. Unfortunatly is was sunk on purpose as blockship in 1945, almost survive the war.

Interestingly enough, the British classified the Graf Spee as a Pocket Battleship (her main guns are only 11inch). 

About a year after the Graf Spee was lost, all of her sister ships were reclassified as Heavy Cruisers. 

Graf spee is definatly a battleship, it has about 30 inviduale guns, including its manin arsenal two three barrel canons (below)

Some anti-aircraft guns I beleive.

And its 8 single barrel canons, which also help me idetify him.

Lanche in 1936, it was one of the first battleship to have fought two days after the war, unfortunatly it was scuttel by its own captain off the coast of montevideo, many of its equipement has been remove by axies and allies, some are on dispaly.

What I don't get it is that is sank in shalow water (like seen above) but today its mostly been destroy and is in deep water, how?

the graf spee is a pocket battleship latter reclassified somewhat as a heavy cruiser. the gneisenau is a battle cruiser designed to take on heavy cruisers & down.

I heard that you can use cellu-caly to form the water.

The Battlecruiser was intended to be a fast raider. I tis less heavily armored than a Battleship. It combines speed and firepower to hit hard and fast and then get out. A Battlecruiser is faster than a Battleship. A battleship is designed to slug it out with other Battleships. It is heavily armored and has greater firepowere but generally slower. The Iowa and North Carolina class battleships were desinged to keep up with Carrier task force while still retaining armor and firepower.

David