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Seeking "What If" info, if USS Enterprise, CV-6 was preserved after the WWII

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  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Singapore
Seeking "What If" info, if USS Enterprise, CV-6 was preserved after the WWII
Posted by Tankbuster on Thursday, January 24, 2008 6:41 PM

Hello all,

The "Building Bug" has re-ignited itself in me! I am working on CV-6 again after it has been dry docked for the past couple of years.

My "What If" senario is this, "If the bonehead naval heads of post WWII had seen the importance of preserving CV-6 after the war as a memorial, do you think she would still have her guns installed?" I think if guns were still installed, she would only have her big guns in place and not the small caliber guns. What about the life rafts and whale boats. I am building her as a "what if" if she still survived today and trying do finish her as "Pre May 1945" before she was put out of the war from the kamikaze strike that blew the forward elevator out.

Do you think she would be painted in war colors or standard navy grey for easier maintenance? Do you think her deck would be stained in sea blue/grey or wood colored? 

I am building her full hull and planning to put her in permanent dry dock.

Any body care to add your "what if" info or advice??

Thanks, Bob 

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: vernon hills illinois
Posted by sumpter250 on Thursday, January 24, 2008 7:57 PM
My guess, and it is just a guess, would be; Her large guns would have stayed. 50 cal and smaller, would have been removed. Lifeboats, and whaleboats, as well as any other boats would most likely have been "redistributed", to replace sunk or damaged ones. She would probably have a plain haze gray paint, and might not even have any handrail color, for ease, and lessened cost of maintenance. As a memorial, she would most likely be afloat, but would require drydocking for hull maintenance below the waterline. An Actual drydock, just for her "display", strikes me as an extravagant expense.

Lead me not into temptation ..................I can find it myself

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Singapore
Posted by Tankbuster on Thursday, January 24, 2008 8:23 PM

sumpter 250, thanks for your response!

I appreciate it and it gives me an idea on what to do. I know the dry dock may be a bit much, but time is on my side and this will be an on going project for a while. I'm retired and a house dad. I have the luxury of my wife's support and she's the bread winner. 

My ultimate plan is to have CVN-65 sitting beside CV-6. But CVN-65 will be in the water and tied to a pier. By the way, this will all be in 350 scale. CVN-65 is a Tamiya and was given to me. CV-6 is the Trump Hornet which I am converting to CV-6.

Bob

  • Member since
    March 2004
  • From: Spartanburg, SC
Posted by subfixer on Friday, January 25, 2008 11:09 AM
I think that the Enterprise might just have been painted in an "original" paint scheme. While other preserved carriers are painted haze gray, the battleship USS North Carolina is painted in her WWII camoflauge scheme. Who could say for sure how the CV-6 would have been painted? The Lexington is painted gray even though she was known as the "Blue Ghost" due to her WWII paint. I think it is because her postwar modifications leaves her in too much of a modern configuration to make an old scheme work. If the old Enterprise was decommed shortly after the war a camo paint job would have been  a good choice.

I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

  • Member since
    January 2005
Posted by John @ WEM on Friday, January 25, 2008 2:10 PM
Lexington is painted gray because she is no longer in her WW2 fit; it would be inappropriate to have her in WW2 camo. As for Enterprise, she only wore patterned camo for a very short period of time; the rest of the time she was in Measure 21 camo, overall 5-N Navy Blue. Given how things were done at the time, she probably would have been painted in in modern Haze Gray at the time of her preservation, and possibly only later painted into Measure 21.
  • Member since
    November 2005
  • From: Newnan, GA
Posted by J.H. Primm on Friday, January 25, 2008 4:01 PM

 subfixer wrote:
I think that the Enterprise might just have been painted in an "original" paint scheme. While other preserved carriers are painted haze gray, the battleship USS North Carolina is painted in her WWII camoflauge scheme. Who could say for sure how the CV-6 would have been painted? The Lexington is painted gray even though she was known as the "Blue Ghost" due to her WWII paint. I think it is because her postwar modifications leaves her in too much of a modern configuration to make an old scheme work. If the old Enterprise was decommed shortly after the war a camo paint job would have been  a good choice.

 In regards to U.S.S. North Carolina...She wasn't always painted in a WWII paint scheme. When I was stationed at MCAS(H) New River in the 1970s I used to go to Wilmington and Wrightsville Beach quite a bit and made several trips to the North Carolina, during that time it was painted in a simple overall gray, with un painted/stained wooden planking.

 

Jonathan Primm

Yougnsville, LA

 

  • Member since
    March 2004
  • From: Spartanburg, SC
Posted by subfixer on Saturday, January 26, 2008 5:03 AM

The North Carolina being repainted in her WWII connfiguration makes her stand out and an even better tourist draw. It might be more difficult to maintain this scheme, but the end results are worth it. The rest of the pack of preserved ships in their haze gray just don't have that pizzazz.

I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

  • Member since
    June 2006
  • From: Waiting for a 1/350 USS Salt Lake City....
Posted by AJB93 on Wednesday, January 30, 2008 6:41 PM
I think all her guns would have stayed or been replaced over the years. Same with the boats. All other museum ships are preserved in this manner.
  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Connecticut, USA
Posted by Aurora-7 on Thursday, January 31, 2008 8:53 AM

I really like this idea of yours for a build.

Since this is kind of a ‘Should have been’ fantasy piece, she could be any condition you’d personally like her to be in. If you want try adding a bit of real-world touch, have her in her final configuration just before her decommissioning but with the elevator fixed.

Hard to believe congress could not come up with the funds or a least a plan to keep her around as a memorial. So little exists that actually saw service from America’s entry into the war to the wars end.

 

 

  • Member since
    February 2005
  • From: Moorefield, WV
Posted by billydelawder on Thursday, January 31, 2008 9:16 AM
I also think it's a shame that  Enterprise couldn't have been saved from the scrapyard. Maybe some group can start planning now to preserve the Nuclear Powered Enterprise, since she's got a bout 8-10 years left.
  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Thursday, January 31, 2008 9:24 AM

It is indeed an interesting idea.  It invites the invention of some sort of scenario that might have happened if the ship had been preserved (as she certainly should have been).

Most American warships of WWII got substantially modified (if they didn't get scrapped) shortly after the war - for several reasons.  Those that remained in active service had to be modernized, in order to keep up with the state of the art in such things as electronics and armament, as well as tactics and strategy.  Battleships, for instance, lost their catapults because the use of fixed-wing spotting aircraft launched from battleships was obsolete.  And thousands of 20mm Oerlikon anti-aircraft guns got removed from warships of virtually all types, because the Navy had concluded that it just wasn't an effective weapon any more.  In many cases the 40mm Bofors guns went too, to be replaced by the more efficient 3-inch.

Ships that were to be mothballed also had many of their open-mount guns removed, because (I guess), preserving them wasn't considered to be worth the trouble (though there are lots of photos of mothballed warships with their 40mm mounts covered by "domes," made from some sort of material that was sprayed onto a metal framework built for the purpose).  And, of course, virtually the whole fleet got repainted.  I have the impression that the various WWII camouflage measures were gone within a year or two (maybe somebody can correct me on that point), replaced by a uniform grey with big, white, black-shadowed hull numbers.  (A generation of Americans came to think that U.S. warships had looked like that during the war, largely because of the Hollywood movies that were made in the fifties using ships that kept their current color schemes during the filming.  Heck, if it's big and it's grey and it floats....)

So are you going to assume that the Enterprise remained in service for a few years after the war?  If so, she probably would have gotten a new radar and communications suite of some sort, lost all her 20mm guns, and, of course, gotten a new air group.  (Skyraiders and Bearcats, maybe?)  And she would have been painted overall grey, with big, shadowed hull numbers - and probably big, bright-colored flight deck markings (on unpainted fir deck planking).  And conceivably some big, ugly modification to let her accommodate the new generation of airplanes.  (A deck-edge elevator, maybe?  Or a big, glassed-in bridge structure?)  But if the organization funding the restoration had enough money (hey - we're talking pure fiction here), maybe it would have scrounged enough 20mm guns from various sources to replace the whole late-war anti-aircraft battery, and repainted her in one of the schemes she wore during the war.  Or maybe the restorers decided to take her back to her as-built configuration.  Or maybe they did their best to make her look like she did at the Battle of Midway - with a reduced 20mm battery and 1.1-inch "Chicago pianos" instead of the 40mm Bofors guns.  Or, more realistically, maybe the organization was strapped for cash and left her with no 20mm guns, the color scheme she wore when she was turned over to them, and her superstructure in whatever condition it was in when the Navy got through ripping out whatever electronic equipment it could use elsewhere.

It's an interesting exercise - and a sad reminder of what that generation failed to save for us.  Maybe, though, we should also be reminded to be grateful that so many American warships of WWII did get saved.  The U.S. obviously has far more of them, of more different types, than any other country has.

Good luck.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    March 2004
  • From: Spartanburg, SC
Posted by subfixer on Thursday, January 31, 2008 11:31 AM
CVN-65 is due for decommissining in 2013. If she can last that long.

I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Singapore
Posted by Tankbuster on Sunday, February 10, 2008 12:18 PM

Hello again,

Thanks for the response and you have given me more to consider!

I am trying to keep CV-6 as she appeared between Aug 44 to May 45. This is mainly because I think this is when she looked her best. I know after she was repaired after the May 45 hit, most of the small caliber guns were removed. This is probably because she went back into service after the war ended. 

Because this is a "What If" project, I have painted her overall dark ghost grey because the haze grey to me looks too dark. (I am using Tamiya paint.) The deck is painted dark sea grey with lite grey markings. The radar suit is what she had when she left Washington in Aug 44.

I have temporarily put the 40mm and 5 inch guns on her but am not to sure about putting the 20 mms on. I haven't put any life rafts, cranes or boats on her yet either.

Okay enough of that, here is where I need advice. The one major goof on my ship is that I didn't cover the port holes below the hanger deck level or put any details such as the piping on the sides. I have another Trump Hornet that I bought to start over again but going back and building the mods the Enterprise has is not an appealing thought.  I can still back step and rework this goof but the thought of wrecking what I have done so far scares me! What would you do???  

Any Thoughts, Bob

  • Member since
    February 2016
Posted by alumni72 on Saturday, February 16, 2008 4:11 PM
This is a fantastic idea, Tankbuster.  The scrapping of the Big E ranks up at the top of all-time Naval admin fubars, right alongside sending the Saratoga to Bikini.  The flick of a pen and they sealed the fate of a huge chunk of US Navy history.
  • Member since
    November 2003
  • From: Exeter, MO
Posted by kustommodeler1 on Saturday, February 16, 2008 8:53 PM

Personally, I'd present her in late-war appearance, with all guns in place. If you google pictures of the battleship memorials, like North Carolina, and Masachusetts, and Alabama, they have all their radar, arials, and guns in place. If the 20mm aren't the real McCoy, they did a good job replicating them for the ships.

 

What types of aircraft will you use? Like, the Midway and Intrepid have a variety spanning a 50 year period. HE-HE that'd be cool........CV-6 with a Tomcat on deck! 

 

Another thing I discovered too, is if you wish to do a ship now serving as a memorial, or museum, that saw service as late as the '90s, like the Midway, and Missouri, they have no radar, or electronics arials on thier masts at all!! They've pretty much been stripped clean. Some photos of Missouri at Pearl now in her final position show the SPS-49 still in place, but it too has been gone for a good bit now. Missouri's armored boxes for the Tomahawk launchers are still there, they were only blast sheilds to protect them from the blast of the big guns, but the launchers themselves of course are gone.

 

Of course, this has nothing to do with your CV-6 project, so I'll shut up.Blush [:I]

Darrin

Setting new standards for painfully slow buildsDead

  • Member since
    August 2004
Posted by spong on Saturday, February 16, 2008 11:27 PM

hi Bob

Please make sure you put the others also along side her to show the lineage NX 01 to NCC 1701E

Sorry but I'm a Trekkie

 

ChrisAngel [angel]

 

"We copy you down Twank,Tranquillity,You got a bunch of guys about to turn blue,we're breathing again, thanks alot" Charlie Duke Capcom Apollo 11 July 20th 1969
  • Member since
    June 2024
Posted by EMCJuice on Tuesday, June 25, 2024 2:23 PM

Enterprise was in Bayonne until 1957. North Carolina was there too. It was at that point she would have been made available for a museum ship as the Secnav budget had targeted a number of warships for disposal to save money.

Pictures taken while  she was in mothballs show the protective domes over her 5 inch and some 40mm mounts. The light caliber weapons would have been removed, along with radars, antennas and the gun directors (exc Mk 37). She was painted haze gray at the time.

I think you would have to look at other ships donated at that time. Alabama, Massachusetts and NC were painted in Post war Haze Gray. I'm not sure about Texas, but she has been painted MS-21 Navy Blue as long as I can remember. If it was me, I would go with 5N. 

As funds were scarce for museum ships, I do not believe she would have been backdated. Just coming up with 20mm mounts would've been a challenge. I think you would need to go with the configuration for Navy Day and Magic Carpet.

The Trumpeter conversion will be challenging as well. You'll need to come up with hull blisters, reshape the flight deck, modify the island and pretty much all the catwalks. Not impossible, but definitely a challenge. Can't wait to see it.

  • Member since
    September 2006
  • From: Bethlehem PA
Posted by the Baron on Wednesday, June 26, 2024 11:28 AM

EMCJuice

Enterprise was in Bayonne until 1957. North Carolina was there too. It was at that point she would have been made available for a museum ship as the Secnav budget had targeted a number of warships for disposal to save money.

Pictures taken while  she was in mothballs show the protective domes over her 5 inch and some 40mm mounts. The light caliber weapons would have been removed, along with radars, antennas and the gun directors (exc Mk 37). She was painted haze gray at the time.

I think you would have to look at other ships donated at that time. Alabama, Massachusetts and NC were painted in Post war Haze Gray. I'm not sure about Texas, but she has been painted MS-21 Navy Blue as long as I can remember. If it was me, I would go with 5N. 

As funds were scarce for museum ships, I do not believe she would have been backdated. Just coming up with 20mm mounts would've been a challenge. I think you would need to go with the configuration for Navy Day and Magic Carpet.

The Trumpeter conversion will be challenging as well. You'll need to come up with hull blisters, reshape the flight deck, modify the island and pretty much all the catwalks. Not impossible, but definitely a challenge. Can't wait to see it.

 
I don't think you'll get a reply from Bob/Tankbuster.  It looks like his last post in the forum was back in 2010.

The bigger the government, the smaller the citizen.

 

 

  • Member since
    January 2021
Posted by JoeSMG on Friday, June 28, 2024 10:48 AM

the Baron

 

 
EMCJuice

Enterprise was in Bayonne until 1957. North Carolina was there too. It was at that point she would have been made available for a museum ship as the Secnav budget had targeted a number of warships for disposal to save money.

Pictures taken while  she was in mothballs show the protective domes over her 5 inch and some 40mm mounts. The light caliber weapons would have been removed, along with radars, antennas and the gun directors (exc Mk 37). She was painted haze gray at the time.

I think you would have to look at other ships donated at that time. Alabama, Massachusetts and NC were painted in Post war Haze Gray. I'm not sure about Texas, but she has been painted MS-21 Navy Blue as long as I can remember. If it was me, I would go with 5N. 

As funds were scarce for museum ships, I do not believe she would have been backdated. Just coming up with 20mm mounts would've been a challenge. I think you would need to go with the configuration for Navy Day and Magic Carpet.

The Trumpeter conversion will be challenging as well. You'll need to come up with hull blisters, reshape the flight deck, modify the island and pretty much all the catwalks. Not impossible, but definitely a challenge. Can't wait to see it.

 

 

 
I don't think you'll get a reply from Bob/Tankbuster.  It looks like his last post in the forum was back in 2010.
 

I agree with you Baron, there will likely be no reply from the OP but for what it's worth I think EMCJuice is correct about the state she'd likely be in. Paint wise I'd guess she'd be the same as current Yorktown (Which I've been to). It is sad that she was discarded -but then again I feel that way about many warship from the WW2 era.

 

.

- Joe the SMG

  • Member since
    September 2006
  • From: Bethlehem PA
Posted by the Baron on Friday, June 28, 2024 12:07 PM

JoeSMG

...Paint wise I'd guess she'd be the same as current Yorktown (Which I've been to). It is sad that she was discarded -but then again I feel that way about many warship from the WW2 era... 

Yes, of all the ships that were preserved, the Enterprise certainly deserved it as much as any did.  The efforts got close in raising funds to preserve her, didn't they, but fell a little short.

I agree about the color scheme she might wear as a museum ship, too.  Maybe something akin to Measure 22, though not necessarily with the exact colors.  But a blue-gray of some sort up to her main deck (the hangar deck), and a lighter gray above.  Or even an overall gray.  Whatever would be easiest and cheapest to maintain.

The bigger the government, the smaller the citizen.

 

 

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Friday, June 28, 2024 5:07 PM

Often these things come down to whatever is donated.

Huge ship.

 

Bill

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    November 2005
  • From: Formerly Bryan, now Arlington, Texas
Posted by CapnMac82 on Friday, June 28, 2024 5:08 PM

Mueseum ships are complicated, as the "artifact" is also the "facility."

When USN does a "donation hold" they remove all the still-in-use gear, and leave anything else behind.  This photo of her laid up after 1949

shows her with about nothing aboard for AA.  Which makes sense, as in 1946 the 20s wer in use on patrol boats, the 40s on various escorts, and the 5"/38s were still in use, too.

So, had she gone to a museum in the 50s, especially after 1953, they could have gotten the eightopen mount 5"/38 from salvage yards.  Getting all six of the quad 40s might have been tough, but they were scrapping ships left and right, so, possible.  the Twin mounts would likely been available--at least to the budget constraints.

Getting all 50 of the 20mm weapons might have been daunting.  Like as not, they would have likely just gotten as many as they could, and filled in a gallery or two in the catwalks.

Much of that would have been down to what "tour routes" they would have wanted to open, too.

The ship's boats question is poignant, too.  Museum ships are often hard aground on those.  The boats often went out to the fleet on decommissioning.  It did not help that, on war patrol it was very common to only have an Admiral's barge, the Captain's gig, and perhaps one 40 crew boat, and the rest sent ashore where they were unlikely to be damaged in enemy action and catch fire.

USS New Jersey only recently got back one of their more-permenant boats, a captain's gig, and that needed rebuilding.

For paint scheme, I'd nominate the Magic Carpet scheme, Measure 22 with the ship's name in 72" tall white letters  in the Navy Blue paint dead amidships.  But, a 50's 5N scheme might have been far more economical given the thousands of gallons required.

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