How are the mighty fallen

A BIG problem with Revell/Monogram that has hurt them for a long time is the fact that they have no standard scales for their models at all, which makes them incompatible with anything by anyone else, or even with each other.  Not sure how they missed this trend, which really kicked in during the '70's when companys like Tamiya and other came out with whole lines in 1/700, 1/500, 1/450. etc.  Part of this problem is that when Revell and the other American model manufacturers got going back in the '50's, they built their models to fit a standard box-size for a standard price, rather than make the box fit the kit.  While this makes sense from a production standardisation point of view, this is the sort of stupidity generally bred by MBA's, not modellers!  And to to be fair, it probably DID make sense back then, as most modellers were young boys at the time, and didn't really give much thought to scale or accuracy. 

But when the trend began to change in the '70's with the introduction of the many excellent offerings from Tamiya and the rest of the Japanese, you would have thought Revell and the other American outfits would have picked up on this and revised their molds and production lines in order to compete.  They wouldn't, couldn't, and in any case didn't, and now they are all in trouble, saddled with ancient and unsatisfactory offerings for the current modelling crowd in the most bizarre scales.  Frankly, I think the only reason they still sell anything is because a FEW of their offerings are simply unavailable elsewhere (but that list has been dwindling for many years now). 

That said, the Revell of Germany boys have been making some good efforts to come up with some sort of standardisation and vast improvements in accuracy, such as the various 1/72 and 1/144 scale submarines that have come out recently.  If they are smart, they would take a bigger stab at getting into the quite lucrative 1/350 scale warships and start phasing out the old rubbish entirely.  I notice there is now a quite good Bismarck out from Revell in this scale, and if they want to REALLY make a splash (since just about everybody and their uncle makes a 1/350 Bismarck already), they would come out with a 1/350 Prinz Eugen as well!

Searat I think you propose a couple of conclusions that are debatable. In a friendly way, of course.

First of all, I for one spent my paper boy money in the early 60's mostly on account of the following:

Box art

Price

Ever notice how older kits have the other offerings in the "series" around the side of the box? That was a BIG deal. There wasn't otherwise any way to know what was out there except by asking the hobby shop person, who in my bicycle radius was a nasty old lady who smelled like her cat and didn't know a thing. Or, the precursor to big boxes, Maximart, where the person who sold models also sold dolls.

Brand loyalty. I liked Revell, because the kits were informative and good looking, plus at least in aircraft there was scale continuity.

But in ships it was glorious. Airfix, Tyco, Lindberg, Revell, Aurora, Heller.

Scale however was not an issue to me or my friends. Even though I ended up an Architect, is was the look, plus the ability to build a "collection", that mattered.

We'd be on the playground in 3rd grade 1961 and some kid sez, " My dad bought me the Revell Bismark!". You had to knock out a couple of teeth. Then ask, "really!!!"

In conclusion, in their genesis these kits were for kids who saved up and plunked a buck for the "Essex" never mind it was 1?527.4 or whatever, but it had little planes and a big decal that said "Beware Jet Blast" and if you needed to, you could put the Missouri next to it.

We need to be fair about this.  Revell was in fact a pioneer in the concept of standardized scales for plastic kits.

In the fifties, like most of its competition, it issued cars in 1/16, 1/32, and 1/25.  Two British companies, Frog and Airfix, took the lead in establishing 1/72 as a standard aircraft kit scale (though it seems the first popular application of it was in the form of the "recognition models" made for the U.S. armed forces during World War II).  It took a little while for American manufacturers to get on the 1/72 bandwagon, but Revell was the first to do so.  The first Revell 1/72-scale aircraft, according to Dr. Graham's book, appeared in 1962.  It was a B-17F, and was followed within a year by the beginning of a large range of single-engined fighters.  Ten Revell 1/32 aircraft kits were on the shelves by the end of the sixties.  From then on, virtually all Revell aircraft kits, except reissues of oldies from the fifties and early sixties, were in either 1/144, 1/72, 1/48, or 1/32.

The Revell ship line did lag behind the others initially.  By the end of the fifties several other companies had settled on standard scales for warships:  Airfix and Aurora on 1/600, Frog and Renwall on 1/500, Heller on 1/400, and, of course, the numerous diecast manufacturers (and the long-lamented British plastic company Eaglewall) on 1/1200 and 1/1250.  It appears that the Japanese, Americans, and Europeans had the idea of a new, more-or-less universally standardized scale for plastic warship kits at just about the same time:  in the late sixties.  For some reason or other (I wonder if the reasons are written down somewhere; I rather doubt it) the Japanese "Waterline Series" consortium (Aoshima, Fujimi, Hasegawa, and Tamiya) and, eventually, Matchbox picked 1/700, while Revell and Italeri picked 1/720.  The first Revell 1/720 kits, according to Dr. Graham's book, were released in 1967:  the Arizona, Prinz Eugen, and the two-for-one Ark Royal and Tribal-class destroyer.  That Revell 1/720 series eventually reached about seven kits (not counting re-boxings under different names - or Italeri kits in Revell boxes).  While that series was running, Revell did continue issuing warships (a handful of new kits and numerous reissues of older ones) in various "fit the box" scales.  It also made a half-hearted stab at a new standardized scale of its own, 1/570 (with a Scharnhorst, Prince of Wales, and one of its all-time best-sellers, the Titanic.)  I have no idea what the reasoning behind that choice of scale was; it may well have been connected with box sizes.

Apart from the big 1/96 series (the Cutty Sark, Kearsarge, Constitution, and their various clones), Revell never standardized on a scale for sailing ships.  But neither has any other manufacturer - plastic or wood.  Many of the Revell sailing ships were indeed scaled to fit in standardized boxes.  The very first one, the old original Constitution, was on a standard scale:  1/192, or 1/16"=1'.  My theory (which is based on logic rather than any evidence) is that the designers picked that scale because it made sense, designed a box to fit that particular kit, and then, when the kit sold reasonably well, started making other sailing ships to fit the box that had been designed around the Constitution.  Hence the weird scales of almost all the other Revell sailing ships - except the Golden Hind, which happened to fit in the standard box at 1/96 scale.

It's also worth noting that the concept of "constant scale" plastic ship models didn't really take off until the very late sixties and early seventies.  By then Revell was in the process of dropping out of the sailing ship business.  The excellent Charles W. Morgan (about 1/110) was released in 1968, and the almost as nice yacht America (1/56) in 1969.  After that Revell only issued one genuinely new sailing ship:  the Viking Ship (in 1975).  Every Revell sailing ship since then (except those originating with Revell Germany) has been a reissue of a kit from the fifties or sixties. 

The plastic sailing ship, in other words, died before the concept of standardizing scales really hit the plastic ship kit industry.  There are many explanations for that fact, but I agree with Bondoman:  the absence of a standardized scale isn't one of them.

Maybe I'm confused, but it looks like both you guys pretty much repeated everything I said above!  I wasn't speaking of airplanes or cars, just ships!  Modellers of the '50's and '60's were mostly young boys who at the time didn't care about scale or accuracy, and they bought what they were sold, and what they were sold fit into standardized boxes, not standardized scales (and used approximately the same amount of plastic).  All the Airfix sailing ships (Vasa, etc), were all in the same sized box for the same price (I think they still are).  All the Revell ships in a 'line' (advertised around the outside of the box) were in the same sized box for the same price, with different 'lines' in larger, or smaller standardised boxes at standardised prices, and the scales were all over the shop!  Lindberg did the same thing, and so did Aurora.  This was not done for any other reason than to standardise production costs, and certainly had nothing to do with scale accuracy, etc.  The closest to any standard scales in sailing ships came from Heller, with sailing ships in 1/200, 1/150, and 1/100 scale, and 1/400 for more modern warships but the sailing models were mostly rubbish for accuracy and it was apparently too late to fix the problem.  As far as I can see, until Revell of Germany, it appears that Revell never even tried to deal with, or even recognised that there WAS a problem!  Look folks, if most of your competition is cranking out highly detailed kits at 1/700, and everyone is buying them, why on God's green earth would you come out with a line in 1/720? Or 1/570?  Yes, it's nice to reminisce about the 'good old days' when Revell, Airfix, etc were the ONLY kits a boy could buy (mine came from the local hardware store when I was a kid, and were way up on a wall where the kids couldn't fool with them!), but really, the models out today and even the Japanese kits in the '70's just blow those old kits right out of the water (and come to think of it, I seem to recall that is exactly what happened to most of my models when I was a kid anyways!). 

Want to take a trip down memory lane?  Here's a challenge!  Go buy one of those big motorized Lindberg kits of HMS Hood (you know, the one with the turrets that go back and forth as it motors around in a circle? I'm pretty sure they STILL make that bomb!), and then buy the recent offering of the same ship by Trumpeter, and after one look, my guess is that Lindberg kit will be closed AND forgotten in VERY short order!

Quite frankly, even as a boy I had a hard time understanding this production 'logic,' though despite the splendid accuracy of the Japanese waterline kits, I still preferred the Revells, but that was for one simple reason; you got the full hull!

It will be interesting to see how things develop in the future, and I have not written off the future of sailing kits quite yet, and that is because if I had to predict the future of the model business and what kits might become available over the last 30 years, I would never have believed it.  These things seem to pop up from very small and obscure beginnings, and then in a couple years, the variety and availability suddenly explodes.  I remember when finding a WW1 airplane model was next to impossible (ever since Aurora went belly up and the Revell '3 in 1' lines disappeared), and only about a half dozen kits of any kind were around.  Then along came Eduard, and shortly after, a half dozen other companys in Eastern Europe suddenly sprang up out of nowhere, and now it is to the point that just about ANY WW1 aircraft can be obtained, each in about four different scales, and even different production runs of the same plane, with all the PE detailing and decals you can shake a stick at!  One thing I alweays found odd, is why the Japanese NEVER started to produce any WW1 planes (I think Hasegawa once produced a massive and massively expensive Fokker DR1, but I think that's it!)?

Anyways, my point is this; just because nobody is producing sailing ship kits to speak of now, doesn't mean the situation cannot, or will not change in the future, and there is just no telling from what quarter the renaissance will come...... We just have to keep asking for them!

searat12 wrote:

The closest to any standard scales in sailing ships came from Heller, with sailing ships in 1/200, 1/150, and 1/100 scale, and 1/400 for more modern warships but the sailing models were mostly rubbish for accuracy and it was apparently too late to fix the problem.

Hello,

I'd like to say some things about Heller's beautiful line of (predominantly) french sailing warships in 1/150 and 1/200.

To start with, all Heller kits of those scales are prepared from excellent monographies by the society of french naval museum's friends, which you can find on sale at their website. These are excellently drawn plans for scratchbuilders and as Heller kits' plans are often abysmal for rigging, I strongly recommend acquiring the corresponding monography. These plans are not only worthy for modelling but they are a piece of art themselves.

Among them Heller chose, for 1/200 scale:

Le Saint Louis & La Couronne: "Saint Louis" was a "Great Ship" or war galleon of 60 guns ordered to dutch shipbuilders by Cardinal Richelieu, french prime minister, in 1626 to bolster the French Navy against Spain. It participated into many engagements, including the successful retaking of Lerins Islands, in the thirty years war. She was broken up in 1650. Heller's model is a beautiful and accurate rendering of Saint Louis with delightful wood grain and planking detail and great carvings. It was also issued by airfix. Heller also made a typically infamous marketing stunt by producing a different set of upperworks for the same hull (to be fair they just replicated Admiral Edmond Paris' highly inaccurate reconstruction in late 19th century) and sold the resulting kit as "La Couronne", the 72 gun contemporary of the british "Sovereign of the Seas". Obviously, while the kit for "Saint Louis" is a serious scale model, that of "La Couronne" is not.

Le Royal Louis & Le Gladiateur: "Royal Louis" was a 116 gun three decker built by famous naval Architect Blaise Ollivier in 1758 and scrapped in 1773 after sustaining irreparable damage in dry dock. Again, It's a beautiful, accurate kit with superb carvings and fair wood grain-plank detail. But the fictitious "Le Gladiateur", built on the same hull with horrendous, ridiculous upperworks is another deception by Heller.

La Belle Poule: The famous 60 gun spar-decked frigate built in 1834 and carried the remains of Napoleon Bonaparte back to France in 1840. Again It's a superb, well accurate model. Fortunately Heller did not make a marketing stunt with this.

Now the kits in 1/150:

Le Phénix & La Sirene: In 1664, King Louis XIV's great finance and naval minister Colbert ordered a treatise upon ships and shipwrightry, richly illustrated with delightful engravings, both to serve as a manual for shipbuilders in Royal Dockyards and to impress the king about navy. In that treatise, known as "Atlas of Colbert", there is a series of abundantly detailed engravings showing all phases of the building of a 86 gun three decker, along with technical informations. While a ship with the decorations shown in the book was never built, four three deckers to the same hull shape and proportions were built between 1664-1692 (Royal Therese, Le Sceptre, Le Brilliant and Le Saint Philippe). Heller's "Le Phénix" is a model of that three decker class with the decorations as shown in the Colbert Atlas. Again the kit's hull is beautifully detailed and accurate, as are the masts and spars; I only don't like the lower gunports pierced for stubs masquerading as gun muzzles and the fact that this ship did never exist. However, both two problems can be well solved by some effort of craftmanship. The drawings of decorations for both the four actually built ships of that class are avaliable online. "La Sirene" is another deception similar to "La Couronne" and "Le Gladiateur", with awful upperworks to the hull of "Phenix".

Le Superbe & Le Glorieux: I'm sure that everybody with some interest to the age of sail know the legendary 74 gun french ship of the line, designed by perhaps the greatest naval architect of all the age of sail, Jacques Noel Sané; in 1782. More than a hundred examples of that floating classic are built and they served well until 1860s, some being converted to auxiliary steam while on stocks. the last example of the class, "HMS Implacable", ex-"Duguay-Trouin", captured at trafalgar, was scuttled in 1949. Members of that class served in British, Spanish and Dutch navies; while the Ottoman Navy built many of its ships upon that model from 1790s on. Le Superbe was one of the first Sané 74s, built in 1784 and sank on 30 January 1795 off Brest, during a storm. Heller's kit is quite good, with well accurate proportions and good grain detail, however detail for individual planks is lacking and the decks are all flat. Neverthless, it is the only existing plastic kit of one of the most important ship types in naval history and the fact that it's virtually devoid of any decorations makes possible to create any of the illustrious Sané 74s (there were many of them). "Le Glorieux" is another stunt by Heller, with a rather more decorated transom and different figurehead to the same hull. Although a french ship of the line by the name of Glorieux did exist, it was sunk at the battle of the Saintes in 1781, thus it was by no means a Sané 74.

Le Capricorne: A french naval brig from post-napoleonic wars period, mass produced and used in classic colonial policing and coast guard duties. Another good, accurate kit, however again Heller did laughable stunts upon that hull, including a late 19th century four mast barque (La Belle Etoile) passed as 1/250 scale !

searat12 wrote:

It will be interesting to see how things develop in the future, and I have not written off the future of sailing kits quite yet, and that is because if I had to predict the future of the model business and what kits might become available over the last 30 years, I would never have believed it.  These things seem to pop up from very small and obscure beginnings, and then in a couple years, the variety and availability suddenly explodes.  I remember when finding a WW1 airplane model was next to impossible (ever since Aurora went belly up and the Revell '3 in 1' lines disappeared), and only about a half dozen kits of any kind were around.  Then along came Eduard, and shortly after, a half dozen other companys in Eastern Europe suddenly sprang up out of nowhere, and now it is to the point that just about ANY WW1 aircraft can be obtained, each in about four different scales, and even different production runs of the same plane, with all the PE detailing and decals you can shake a stick at!  One thing I alweays found odd, is why the Japanese NEVER started to produce any WW1 planes (I think Hasegawa once produced a massive and massively expensive Fokker DR1, but I think that's it!)? Anyways, my point is this; just because nobody is producing sailing ship kits to speak of now, doesn't mean the situation cannot, or will not change in the future, and there is just no telling from what quarter the renaissance will come...... We just have to keep asking for them!

I exactly think so ! For example, Revell-Europe issued a beautiful all new tooling kit of Dutch east indiaman "Batavia" in 1/150 scale, when the replica of that ship was launched in 1995. We know also how Zvezda issued (albeit a very inaccurate) greek trireme and a Hanseatic Cog (a superb model) in 1/72 quite recently. There are a number of highly publicised replica ships currently building and some are about to be completed, for example the french frigate Hermione which carried Marquis de Lafayette to America in 1781 and Admiral de Ruyter's flagship "De Zeven Provincien". You may also have noted the recent reapparition of many of the oldie but goldie Revell sailing ships along with the slow but steady reissue of breathtaking old Imai kits by Aoshima. I'm well hopeful about the future of plastic ship models

just my two cents

kapudan_emir_effendi ,

Thanks for the good news and very good information. It's good to hear from you again.

rg

RALPH G WILLIAMS wrote:

kapudan_emir_effendi , Thanks for the good news and very good information. It's good to hear from you again. rg

Thank you Ralph I'm also happy to be able to write to the forum once again. Since 8 months I was battling with an illness which left my left ear permanently deaf, I just recovered enough to resume school and other daily routines. I hope to write regularly from now on.

Cheers

Sorry to hear about your ear!  I too had a nasty ear infection which lasted for over a month before antibiotics could finally wrestle it to the ground, but luckily, did not lose my hearing!

I agree, SOME of the Heller kits were quite good (the 1/72 'La Reale' and the big Chebec too were especially good!), but it amazed me how they could also produce such rubbish at the same time!  of course, a lot of the molds were bought up from Aurora and elsewhere, but it would have been nice if they had been updated at that time.  But 'pride goeth before a fall,' and I think a big reason Heller went under was because of a lack of updating to the same level as their competition.  I also recall they spent a LOT of effort producing kits that were specifically French, and while that is not necessarily a bad thing, it has a tendency to limit your clientele in the international market, especially when there are much more important subjects of wider interest that could have been produced with the same effort, and with greater sales as a result.  'Vive La Difference!'  But they still went down the tubes!