How are the mighty fallen

I humbly regret to admit that a 1/700 AS-616/SPS-10 would be 0.1085714" in width, and require the use of material 0.0014285" thick for the heaviest parts of the screen. McNarry just might come closer than you think!, photoetch has its limitations

Sumpter is, of course correct; modelers got along for hundreds of years without plastic kits, and they can certainly do so again if they have to.  My point is simply that there are, at the present time, a number of manufacturers who are setting an extremely impressive pace when it comes to kits (ships, airplanes, automobiles, locomotives, tanks, whatever), and Revell, at least in the realm of ships, isn't one of them. 

I don't agree that the most sophisticated kits are aimed at "kit assemblers."  It's certainly true that such technological developments as photo-etching, the pantograph machine, "slide molding," etc. have put a finer level of detail within reach of people who couldn't contemplate it otherwise.  (I don't think Donald McNarry would be able to make a 1/700 radar screen that could compete with a photo-etched one from GMM.)  But the best kits most emphatically require a great more skill - and knowledge of the subject matter - than their counterparts of twenty or thirty years ago.

The question of the "legitimacy" of building models from kits is another one entirely.  As should be obvious from the amount of time I spend in this Forum, I'm among those who think, for a variety of reasons, that there is an extremely legitimate role in the hobby for kits in general and plastic kits in particular.  I think the disappearance of high-quality kits would be a bad thing for the hobby.  At this point, though, I'm not sure the disappearance of Revell USA from the world of ship modeling would be noticed.  And, in view of the contribution the firm has made to the hobby over the decades, I think that's a shame.

There's a TV commercial that seems to say it all, that starts with an old TV set, acting up, followed by the comment " you're right, we need a new TV, followed by " I want it all.....Iwant it all.... I want it all, and I want it now!". At the great risk of sounding "eliteist", there have always been "kit assemblers", and there have always been "model builders". The hobby industry is currently chasing the "kit assembelers", and seems to have left the model builders out of the race. Model builders are never "out of the race". I say that because model builders have the skills necessary to do what they want, and not be totally dependent on manufacturers whims, to produce models of what the "builders" want to build. So long as there are specifications, measurements, and accurate plans, models will be built. Yes, the newer plastic kits have detail that is difficult at best to reproduce from scratch. Yet, therein lies the challenge, if someone can make a master that detailed, then I should be able to make a scratchbuilt detail that equals it. The hobby industry may go to the lowest common denominator for profit, but the craft of model building, and the skill of the builder will continue to grow. The satisfaction of completing a highly detailed scale model is not dependent on the industry, it is within the skill, and desire of the builder. The mighty have not fallen, only their commercial pretenders.

Yup, it appears the Americans just aren't interested in producing ship kits.  Part of this may be the time, effort and money required to make a satisfactory mold these days.  I mean, when you look at a car kit which may have what, 50-100 parts?  Now compare that with a 1/350 battleship, which might have 800 parts or more, each one of which has to be accurately formed from scratch to begin with, and a whole lot of thought as to how it all will go together.  Seems to me that car models, other than the basic bodies and interiors have a LOT of common parts that can just be swapped out to a different sprue for a different model, which is a lot trickier to do with a ship model. 

It seems to me that the ship modeller, with the possible exception of the armor modellers, are just about the most finicky group out there (I recall a thread not long ago discussing the problems of gun-tub molds, secondary guns, etc. that kind of blew my mind!), and are the first to complain if it is not perfect!  Finally, the simple lack of volume in ship model sales has to account for a lot too, combined with competition from the limited run resin kit manufacturers, all makes producing a highly detailed and accurate ship model a very risky business (and a sailing ship? Fuggedaboudit!)! 

I think the Japanese have an edge on this, in that they have a large number of modellers that are very interested in history and accuracy, and a lot of these kits are really produced with them in mind, with overseas sales a secondary, if still important consideration (i.e., they break even with Japanese sales alone, and the profit comes in from overseas).  In any case, it sure would be interesting for one of the magazines (here's a hint, Finescale!) to conduct a series of interviews of several of the manufacturers to get their views on the subject, if for no other reason than to see just how these guys think, and what their 'vision' is of progress of the hobby business over the next ten years or so!

Aaronw's observations on the Revell car line are most interesting.  I can't claim to know anything about that subject.  It sounds as though the company is making a genuine effort to be competitive there.  (Come to think of it - are any other American mainstream plastic kit firms making genuinely new car kits these days?)  I hope he's right that the new management is at least a little more interested in the scale modeler than its predecessors.

I think the 1/72 U-boat originated with Revell Germany, and the 1/72 Gato with U.S. Revell.  My memory's a little shaky (as usual) though; I'm not sure whether the U-boat ever came out in a U.S. Revell box - or showed up in the Revell-Monogram web catalog.  I'm pretty sure every one I've actually seen has been in a Revell Germany box.  Revell Germany also has released two 1/144 U-boat kits, which (on the basis of photos) appear to be excellent - but they aren't on the U.S. list either.

It's also worth noting that Revell Germany has been doing some excellent aircraft kits in the past few years.  The new 1/72 Lancaster looks like it was designed deliberately to compete with Hasegawa's - and the reviews so far seem to imply that it's doing so successfully.

None of this, though, alters any of the comments I made at the beginning of this thread.  With the sole exception of the big Gato-class sub kit, Revell gives every sign of having lost interest in the American scale ship modeler.  And I firmly believe that promoting that 1954 Missouri as a "new" kit constitutes deceptive marketing.

I doubt Revell USA will be going out of buisness anytime soon. They came under new management last year and at least in the car model segment they have been doing a good job of bringing out new kits and re-issues many with new parts or corrected parts.

 

You may be correct that they are missing the boat when it comes to ships or perhaps they focusing on the areas they do best. Revell car models compete more evenly with Tamiya and Hasegawa, the quality of the kits is slightly lacking compared to the Japanese kits but they are also 1/2 the price, are full detail instead of curbside and many are of American cars, a subject the Japanese kits rarely cover, on the other hand those kit makers have a lot more experince when it comes to ships. 

I believe Revell also did a 1/72 scale German U-boat so perhaps they are cautiously evaluating where they can compete with the Japanese companies best. 1/72 ship models are fairly wide open considering there are only a handful, a couple torpedo boats and a couple of destroyers.  

At least the two new Revell ship models (Gato and U-boat) have received good reviews, Trumpeter really bombed with their first couple of attempts at making car kits.

Of course profit is the biggest driving consideration - for Revell and for every other model kit manufacturer.  But others seem to be able to reconcile the making of a reasonable profit with the production of new, high-quality merchandise.

The plastic sailing ship kit is, to all intents and purposes, already dead.  There have been, to all intents and purposes, no genuinely new scale plastic sailing ship kit releases in at least twenty years.  Certainly there have been none from any American company; the most recent one I can think of is the Hanseatic cog from the Russian firm Zvezda.  (Revell's first sailing ship, the 1/192 Constitution, was initially released in 1956; the last new sailing ship, the excellent Viking ship, in 1977.  The company was in the sailing ship business for 21 years and has now been out of it for 31 - more than half of its corporate existence.  Caveat:  I'm talking here only about the American segment of the company.  Revell Germany has issued a few sailing ships that haven't made it into the U.S. catalog.)  This phase of the hobby is surviving, to the extent that it's surviving at all, on the basis of reissues, with a little help from swap meets and e-bay.

That does not, however, account for the fact that Revell keeps foisting that fossilized, 1954-vintage WWII battleship kit on each new generation of unknowing customers - when the company vaults contain the molds for several superior versions of the same ship.  Part of the problem, I suspect, is that few, if any, of the current decision makers actually know (or care) anything about scale models.  But it certainly looks like somebody on the corporate level has made the decision that ship kits of any sort - sailing, powered, or otherwise - simply aren't worth bothering with. 

It seems that when the company gets some evidence (e.g., the success of Revell Germany's 1/72 U-boat), it still has the ability to respond (e.g., with the 1/72 Gato - which, as I understand it, actually did originate with U.S. Revell and is an excellent kit).  But the evidence apparently has to hit the executives like a 2x4 to the mouth. 

The competition gives us a WWII French battleship in two scales, 1/700 aircraft carriers with airplanes molded in clear plastic and photo-etched elevator framework, and boxes that advertise what new, high-tech molding techniques have been used to make the kit.  Some of the Dragon 1/700 kits have duplicate 5" gunhouses, because the designers figured out how to improve on the initial design before the kits were released.  Hasegawa releases a state-of-the-art 1/350 battleship from the Russo-Japanese War - in two versions.  Revell Germany plans a 1/144 destroyer.  And U.S. Revell gives us a 54-year-old battleship in a pretty new box - at the highest price yet.

Maybe the executives are indeed thinking about the kid market - but for their sakes I certainly hope not.  Just about every other manufacturer has figured out that kids don't build plastic models any more.  Survey after survey reveals that, with the exceptions of snap-together kits, the various Japanese "monster" series, and some (but by no means all) car kits, virtually all the purchasers of scale model kits in any medium today are adults.  The competition has figured that out and made adjustments - in terms of its product lines, the nature and quality of the merchandise, marketing strategies, and, unfortunately, pricing.  (Few, if any, plastic kits nowadays fit into the "pocket money" category - even for today's generation of kids.)  And those other companies certainly give the impression that they're making money.  Revell just doesn't seem to be making much of an effort to keep up.

The problem isn't confined to ships.  One of the "new releases" currently advertised on the U.S. Revell website is a 1/48 SBD Dauntless.  A look at the accompanying photo makes it obvious that this is the old Monogram kit from the fifties.  One wonders if the people in charge of the company are even aware of the difference between this product and the ones being sold by Hasegawa and Accurate Miniatures.

I wonder if some great moment in the history of Revell may be at hand.  I got to the website by typing www.revell-monogram.com into my computer, but it got changed automatically to www.revell.com.  On the site itself the Monogram name is nowhere to be seen.  Apparently some big corporate development has taken place, or is in the works. 

I suppose it's possible that the American branch of Revell will go out of business shortly.  If that happens, it will be a blow to the hobby - and nobody who's been building models for any length of time will be happy about it.  But I have to say that, whatever troubles the company may be having at the moment, some, if not all, of them are its own fault.

Dr. Tilley ,

I think it's the old bottom line.What will make the most profit for invested funds? The answer is evident with a visit to Hobby Lobby and my LHS. When the young folks select a model , what would you guess to be the choice? If your answer is cars ( lots of rice burners) and jet ac you would be correct. When I spoke to the manager of the local Hobby Lobby about the prospect of ordering a greater selection of ship models , I was informed the selection at hand was all that was approved. I was also informed that, due to lack of demand, the entire ship line may be deleted from inventory. They have added several "Easy" Revell car models to the very large display of car models.

The price of ship models could be a factor. Car models tend to be much less expensive. Lack of interest in the subject of History and the patience to build a " difficult " looking model could also be factors. Custom painting a car model also could be a big draw to a young builder.

I think in the next 20 years plastic sailing ships will be classified with Passenger Pigeons and DODO Birds.

Do think the models we build a younger folks influences our selection of kits as more mature ( older ) builders?