recommendations for medieval ships

Well, much of what you say is true, especially regarding the inherent conservatism of traditional shipwrights.  However, it is important to note that change occurs, even within the most conservative groups given enough time (an inch off here, add an inch there), and you must admit, a thousand years is a LOT of time in anybody's book! 

Two books I highly recommend on this subject of Northern European craft are 'Inshore Craft,' from Chatham Publishing, which is a quite complete directory of all the traditional working vessels of the British Isles, and the other book, and perhaps even more relevant to this discussion is 'Bateaux Traditionnels Francais' by Yves Gaubert.  In both books, you will see the continued use and development of Viking-type craft right down through the early 20th century, from the various 'Yoles' from the Shetlands, Orkneys, and right down the North Sea and Channel coasts, and many other developed forms as well.  The French book does much the same for the coasts of France, including Normandy and Brittany, along with any number of different traditional boats developed from Viking antecedents, as well as river barges and 'Gabares' whose design has not changed essentially since William's time of for that matter, the Egyptian Pharaohs (in particular, have a look at the barge 'Val de Vienne,' which is a Loire barge design from the 18th century, and still in use until the early 1900's, but could easily be pictured on the Nile three thousand years earlier).  These are very simple craft, easy to build and easy to operate, can carry a LOT of stuff, and have very ancient antecedents!  Certainly if the Channel was calm when William made his crossing (s), barges like these could certainly be used to bring over additional supplies, and could be loosely considered 'Celtic,' though almost identical vessels have been constructed and used the world over for much the same purpose (it is the easist boat to build of just about any type!).  But if there was any weather to speak of during William's crossing, such barges would have been death-traps to all on board.  Finally, if you look at the Bayeaux Tapestry, you don't see anything that might construed as a Celtic barge, or any other barge for that matter.  What you DO see depicted are vessels that for all intents and purposes are Viking longships, and that tapestry was created by reliable first-hand witnesses to the event.

The French are exceedingly obliging for modellers of ancient and traditional vessels, because they have a great tradition of producing accurate replicas of virtually every kind of craft imaginable that the French have ever sailed.  Essentially, every seaside village has its own type of traditional craft, and one or more of these will be in existence for village pride, conservation of ancient craftsmanship and sailing skills.  These include not only the many types of the Channel Coast, and the Bay of Biscay, but also the Mediterranean coast as well (to include vessels like 'Pointus,' which are yet another vessel derived directly from the galley/chebec type).

As for the Celts of Brittany and elsewhere, they weren't stupid either, and when confronted with a sea-going technology superior to their own, adopted it as quickly as they could (remember, they had been driven out of England by the relatives of the Vikings, the Saxons, and had been continually raided by Vikings since).

A good example of how a very small and incremental technological change can have dramatic results can be seen in the career and victory of the Saxon King Alfred the Great over the Vikings of his day.  In 885 AD, Alfred and his fleet confronted a fleet of over 100 Viking longships (Danes) at the mouth of the Orwell River.  Afred's ships were built to almost the same design as those of the Vikings, however, based ona bit of bright thinking on his part, HIS ships were a few strakes taller than those of the Danes, which meant his bowmen could shoot down into the open Viking ships, while the Vikings were unable to reply.  It also meant that Alfred's ships were much more difficult to board as well, while the Saxon troops of Alfred could simply jump directly into the ships of the Danes.  The result was that Alfred totally defeated the Danes in this battle, seizing many ships, burning the rest, and no prisoners were taken.  And all because a couple more planks were added to an existing design...... It is to be admitted that this design 'improvement' had its detractors, and these ships were notably slower than those of the Vikings, and more likely to run aground (they drew more water), but the defensive trend had been established, and was eventually to result in vessels like the Cog.

As far as the Byzantines and Muslims of the Med are concerned, certainly they copied each others vessels of the time (they were in open competitive warfare for almost 700 years), but you can hardly say that these vessels did not change or develop over time.  You can pick any time from the rise of Mohammed to the fall of Constantinople, and even further, past the Battle of Lepanto, and indicate that the vessels of one side were essentially the same as those on the other.  However, you cannot say the same by comparing vessels of one era with vessels from another (i.e., comparing a Byzantine galley or other ship type from 500 AD to another Byzantine ship from 1300 AD, and you will see two quite different vessels).   Certainly you can trace a fairly linear trend in design changes, but the ships did not remain the same design throughout, and went through a number of fairly significant alterations from thier Classical beginnings.  

I'd agree that the Tapestry is the story to beat here. Great discussion and I like to learn as much as I can- once you stop, you're no longer living.

Bill

Hi Richard,

There are a few other options if you are interested, and some every good ones.

There is an excellent laser cut wood model of an 11th century Danish trading vessel, known as Skuldelev 3. The original was a 45 foot long coastal trader, built in Denmark around 1040; it had a long life during Harald Hardraada of Norway's futile attempt to displace Denmark's Svein Estrithsson. Ultimately it and four other ships (including two longships, one of 98 feet that was built in Dublin in 1042) were deliberately sunk to block a channel leading to Roskilde from Norweigian assault later in the century, beginning in 1070.

Skuldelev 3 s a really beautiful ship that has all the elements that made Viking vessels so successful, and its replica Roar Edge has shown this well, proving to be a very good sailor in every respect. A replica of the 98 foot longship, named Sea Stallion and painted in colors after the style of the Baeux Tapestry, recently sailed from Roskilde to Dublin, and will return this year.

The laser cut kit is from Billing Boats, as their "Roar Edge." I dont normally like Billing kits (in fact I cant stand them) but this one is a real exception, well designed and thought out. The planks are all laser cut and when assembled they go into this elegant form like no tomorrow. I have two of these kits and enjoy building them when I'm not working on my 1617 Dutch jacht. Here is a link to the Billing site:

http://www.billingboats.com/703.htm

And information about the actual vessel can be seen here:

http://www2.rgzm.de/navis/ships/ship003/Ship003Engl.htm

And here is a link to a page showing the model under construction:

http://www.frasers-art.com/models/roar-ege/roar.htm

its not a difficult kit but you will prepare for a tranition from plastic to wood - not a hard one, since nearly everything is pre cut, and the completed model is beautiful. When I completed the steering oar there is a real a sense of satisfaction, as Viking steering oars were extremely elegant.

The other option is a new, small release laser cut wood kit offered by the journal "Model Ship Builder" of Canada, based on the suprb Newfoundland reconstruction of the small carrack Matthew, which carried Cabot to America in 1497. Its one of two replica Matthews - the other one is in Bristol - and this one is my personal favroite, the lines just feel very good and the forecastle is raised slightly higher than the aftercastle in the manner of the late 15th century. Both replicas are carvel and not clinker built, perhaps due to modern law, and the model is as well, but the laser cut portions are seperate from the planking and there is nothing to hold you back from clinker if desired. Matthew is a true late medievel vessel and I think much better in its reconstructions than many of the Santa Marias out there. You can see the replica (or actually reconstruction) of Matthew and its model here:

http://www.modelshipbuilder.com/models/the-matthew-project.html

I've been really tempted to take it on, maybe some day.

Hope this helps,

Jim

searat12 wrote:

Well, much of what you say is true, especially regarding the inherent conservatism of traditional shipwrights.  However, it is important to note that change occurs, even within the most conservative groups given enough time (an inch off here, add an inch there), and you must admit, a thousand years is a LOT of time in anybody's book!  Two books I highly recommend on this subject of Northern European craft are 'Inshore Craft,' from Chatham Publishing, which is a quite complete directory of all the traditional working vessels of the British Isles, and the other book, and perhaps even more relevant to this discussion is 'Bateaux Traditionnels Francais' by Yves Gaubert.  In both books, you will see the continued use and development of Viking-type craft right down through the early 20th century, from the various 'Yoles' from the Shetlands, Orkneys, and right down the North Sea and Channel coasts, and many other developed forms as well.  The French book does much the same for the coasts of France, including Normandy and Brittany, along with any number of different traditional boats developed from Viking antecedents, as well as river barges and 'Gabares' whose design has not changed essentially since William's time of for that matter, the Egyptian Pharaohs (in particular, have a look at the barge 'Val de Vienne,' which is a Loire barge design from the 18th century, and still in use until the early 1900's, but could easily be pictured on the Nile three thousand years earlier).  These are very simple craft, easy to build and easy to operate, can carry a LOT of stuff, and have very ancient antecedents!  Certainly if the Channel was calm when William made his crossing (s), barges like these could certainly be used to bring over additional supplies, and could be loosely considered 'Celtic,' though almost identical vessels have been constructed and used the world over for much the same purpose (it is the easist boat to build of just about any type!).  But if there was any weather to speak of during William's crossing, such barges would have been death-traps to all on board.  Finally, if you look at the Bayeaux Tapestry, you don't see anything that might construed as a Celtic barge, or any other barge for that matter.  What you DO see depicted are vessels that for all intents and purposes are Viking longships, and that tapestry was created by reliable first-hand witnesses to the event. The French are exceedingly obliging for modellers of ancient and traditional vessels, because they have a great tradition of producing accurate replicas of virtually every kind of craft imaginable that the French have ever sailed.  Essentially, every seaside village has its own type of traditional craft, and one or more of these will be in existence for village pride, conservation of ancient craftsmanship and sailing skills.  These include not only the many types of the Channel Coast, and the Bay of Biscay, but also the Mediterranean coast as well (to include vessels like 'Pointus,' which are yet another vessel derived directly from the galley/chebec type). As for the Celts of Brittany and elsewhere, they weren't stupid either, and when confronted with a sea-going technology superior to their own, adopted it as quickly as they could (remember, they had been driven out of England by the relatives of the Vikings, the Saxons, and had been continually raided by Vikings since). A good example of how a very small and incremental technological change can have dramatic results can be seen in the career and victory of the Saxon King Alfred the Great over the Vikings of his day.  In 885 AD, Alfred and his fleet confronted a fleet of over 100 Viking longships (Danes) at the mouth of the Orwell River.  Afred's ships were built to almost the same design as those of the Vikings, however, based ona bit of bright thinking on his part, HIS ships were a few strakes taller than those of the Danes, which meant his bowmen could shoot down into the open Viking ships, while the Vikings were unable to reply.  It also meant that Alfred's ships were much more difficult to board as well, while the Saxon troops of Alfred could simply jump directly into the ships of the Danes.  The result was that Alfred totally defeated the Danes in this battle, seizing many ships, burning the rest, and no prisoners were taken.  And all because a couple more planks were added to an existing design...... It is to be admitted that this design 'improvement' had its detractors, and these ships were notably slower than those of the Vikings, and more likely to run aground (they drew more water), but the defensive trend had been established, and was eventually to result in vessels like the Cog. As far as the Byzantines and Muslims of the Med are concerned, certainly they copied each others vessels of the time (they were in open competitive warfare for almost 700 years), but you can hardly say that these vessels did not change or develop over time.  You can pick any time from the rise of Mohammed to the fall of Constantinople, and even further, past the Battle of Lepanto, and indicate that the vessels of one side were essentially the same as those on the other.  However, you cannot say the same by comparing vessels of one era with vessels from another (i.e., comparing a Byzantine galley or other ship type from 500 AD to another Byzantine ship from 1300 AD, and you will see two quite different vessels).   Certainly you can trace a fairly linear trend in design changes, but the ships did not remain the same design throughout, and went through a number of fairly significant alterations from thier Classical beginnings.

Hello,

I'd like to further detail and strenghten my point about the existence of Celtic seagoing ships in William's invasion fleet. The article Celtic Plank Boats and Ships, 500 BC-1000 AD by Professor Detlev Elmers from Conway's The Earliest Ships is my main source, along with my interpretation of Bayeux Tapestry itself.

to start with, I'd like to describe the earliest pictorial evidence we have about Celtic seagoing merchant ships. This evidence is a Celtic coin from around 100 BC minted in today's Normandy. It shows a chariot racer holding a model ship in his hands as a prize of competition. This model shows a deep, double ended ship carrying a single mast and square sail. At each end of the ship there is an animal head decoration, just like the tubbier, horse carrying ships of the Bayeux tapestry.

Secondly we have the invaluable description by no one other than Julius Caesar in his De Bellum Gallicum, about the afromentioned Veneti ships. He describes an extremely strongly built, keelless and high sided ship propelled by a single mast and a soft leather single square sail. his full description again beautifully matches the ship on the Celtic coin.

Thirdly, we have archeological evidence. In 1962 remains of a ship was found at Blackfriars, London and another was excavated in 1984-86 at Guernsey. Archaeologist Peter Marsden who excavated Blackfriars wreck realised that it exactly fitted to Caesar's description of Veneti ships. Guernsey wreck was of all the same shape likewise. Here is a website about Blackfriars ship with a detailed text and admirable drawings:

http://www2.rgzm.de/Navis/Ships/Ship020/Ship020.htm

Now, let's have a look to the tapestry itself:

http://hastings1066.com/bayeux3.shtml

Attention to the ship in the middle. It has no rowlocks and it's noticeably tubbier and deep than the apprently Norse designed ship seen on her left.

again here:

http://hastings1066.com/bayeux19.shtml

Likewise, the second ship on the slight, the one heavily laden with horses and men has no rowlocks and is apparently very deep: only the heads of horses are visible from the gunwale. It's certainly far away from the design of a longship or even from more shallower Norse knarrs. Another crucial advantage that a keelless low draft Celtic ship for an invasion army is no doubt her safety of use in the tracherous sandy beaches of southern england which are strongly affected by channel currents.

and now, the conclusion part by Professor Elmers about how long did celtic ship designs survived in western europe. Underlines are mine.

"How the inland ships of the Celtic shipbuilding tradition survived beyond the end of the middle ages on the continent of Europe has been demonstrated above. The Germanic tribes who invaded the continent did not arrive by ship, and were not seafarers, so were likely to adopt the native style of vessel. However, in Britain every trace of the continued exitence of seagoing ships built to the Celtic tradition disappears after the end of Roman rule. the likely reason for this is that the Anglo-Saxons migrated to England in their own ships and subsequently continued to use them for their sea journeys, as the post-Roman ships excavated in London show very clearly.

    It is probable that this reasoning does not hold true for Brittany and the adjacent Atlantic coastal regions, for no Germanic tribes migrated to those areas in their own ships. How long people in that region continued to buil ocean going ships based on the Celtic pattern is an open question, as archaeological research has produced no evidence to date. However, the writer suspects that the carvel construction which, in the late middle ages, spread out from this region towards the east can be traced back to Celtic carvel construction, which was the standard method in that area even before the advent of Caesar and the Romans." (the Earliest Ships, p. 71)

Upon my interpretation of pictorial and archaeological evidence along with scholarly arguments, I'm greatly convinced that William of Normandy mobilised and used the proven eons old designs native to his recently conquered territories to good effect along with his ancestral Norse ships.

This is the stuff that separates the Ships forum from the rest of the forums.

kapudan_emir_effendi wrote:

searat12 wrote: Well, much of what you say is true, especially regarding the inherent conservatism of traditional shipwrights.  However, it is important to note that change occurs, even within the most conservative groups given enough time (an inch off here, add an inch there), and you must admit, a thousand years is a LOT of time in anybody's book!  Two books I highly recommend on this subject of Northern European craft are 'Inshore Craft,' from Chatham Publishing, which is a quite complete directory of all the traditional working vessels of the British Isles, and the other book, and perhaps even more relevant to this discussion is 'Bateaux Traditionnels Francais' by Yves Gaubert.  In both books, you will see the continued use and development of Viking-type craft right down through the early 20th century, from the various 'Yoles' from the Shetlands, Orkneys, and right down the North Sea and Channel coasts, and many other developed forms as well.  The French book does much the same for the coasts of France, including Normandy and Brittany, along with any number of different traditional boats developed from Viking antecedents, as well as river barges and 'Gabares' whose design has not changed essentially since William's time of for that matter, the Egyptian Pharaohs (in particular, have a look at the barge 'Val de Vienne,' which is a Loire barge design from the 18th century, and still in use until the early 1900's, but could easily be pictured on the Nile three thousand years earlier).  These are very simple craft, easy to build and easy to operate, can carry a LOT of stuff, and have very ancient antecedents!  Certainly if the Channel was calm when William made his crossing (s), barges like these could certainly be used to bring over additional supplies, and could be loosely considered 'Celtic,' though almost identical vessels have been constructed and used the world over for much the same purpose (it is the easist boat to build of just about any type!).  But if there was any weather to speak of during William's crossing, such barges would have been death-traps to all on board.  Finally, if you look at the Bayeaux Tapestry, you don't see anything that might construed as a Celtic barge, or any other barge for that matter.  What you DO see depicted are vessels that for all intents and purposes are Viking longships, and that tapestry was created by reliable first-hand witnesses to the event. The French are exceedingly obliging for modellers of ancient and traditional vessels, because they have a great tradition of producing accurate replicas of virtually every kind of craft imaginable that the French have ever sailed.  Essentially, every seaside village has its own type of traditional craft, and one or more of these will be in existence for village pride, conservation of ancient craftsmanship and sailing skills.  These include not only the many types of the Channel Coast, and the Bay of Biscay, but also the Mediterranean coast as well (to include vessels like 'Pointus,' which are yet another vessel derived directly from the galley/chebec type). As for the Celts of Brittany and elsewhere, they weren't stupid either, and when confronted with a sea-going technology superior to their own, adopted it as quickly as they could (remember, they had been driven out of England by the relatives of the Vikings, the Saxons, and had been continually raided by Vikings since). A good example of how a very small and incremental technological change can have dramatic results can be seen in the career and victory of the Saxon King Alfred the Great over the Vikings of his day.  In 885 AD, Alfred and his fleet confronted a fleet of over 100 Viking longships (Danes) at the mouth of the Orwell River.  Afred's ships were built to almost the same design as those of the Vikings, however, based ona bit of bright thinking on his part, HIS ships were a few strakes taller than those of the Danes, which meant his bowmen could shoot down into the open Viking ships, while the Vikings were unable to reply.  It also meant that Alfred's ships were much more difficult to board as well, while the Saxon troops of Alfred could simply jump directly into the ships of the Danes.  The result was that Alfred totally defeated the Danes in this battle, seizing many ships, burning the rest, and no prisoners were taken.  And all because a couple more planks were added to an existing design...... It is to be admitted that this design 'improvement' had its detractors, and these ships were notably slower than those of the Vikings, and more likely to run aground (they drew more water), but the defensive trend had been established, and was eventually to result in vessels like the Cog. As far as the Byzantines and Muslims of the Med are concerned, certainly they copied each others vessels of the time (they were in open competitive warfare for almost 700 years), but you can hardly say that these vessels did not change or develop over time.  You can pick any time from the rise of Mohammed to the fall of Constantinople, and even further, past the Battle of Lepanto, and indicate that the vessels of one side were essentially the same as those on the other.  However, you cannot say the same by comparing vessels of one era with vessels from another (i.e., comparing a Byzantine galley or other ship type from 500 AD to another Byzantine ship from 1300 AD, and you will see two quite different vessels).   Certainly you can trace a fairly linear trend in design changes, but the ships did not remain the same design throughout, and went through a number of fairly significant alterations from thier Classical beginnings.   Hello, I'd like to further detail and strenghten my point about the existence of Celtic seagoing ships in William's invasion fleet. The article Celtic Plank Boats and Ships, 500 BC-1000 AD by Professor Detlev Elmers from Conway's The Earliest Ships is my main source, along with my interpretation of Bayeux Tapestry itself. to start with, I'd like to describe the earliest pictorial evidence we have about Celtic seagoing merchant ships. This evidence is a Celtic coin from around 100 BC minted in today's Normandy. It shows a chariot racer holding a model ship in his hands as a prize of competition. This model shows a deep, double ended ship carrying a single mast and square sail. At each end of the ship there is an animal head decoration, just like the tubbier, horse carrying ships of the Bayeux tapestry. Secondly we have the invaluable description by no one other than Julius Caesar in his De Bellum Gallicum, about the afromentioned Veneti ships. He describes an extremely strongly built, keelless and high sided ship propelled by a single mast and a soft leather single square sail. his full description again beautifully matches the ship on the Celtic coin. Thirdly, we have archeological evidence. In 1962 remains of a ship was found at Blackfriars, London and another was excavated in 1984-86 at Guernsey. Archaeologist Peter Marsden who excavated Blackfriars wreck realised that it exactly fitted to Caesar's description of Veneti ships. Guernsey wreck was of all the same shape likewise. Here is a website about Blackfriars ship with a detailed text and admirable drawings: http://www2.rgzm.de/Navis/Ships/Ship020/Ship020.htm Now, let's have a look to the tapestry itself: http://hastings1066.com/bayeux3.shtml Attention to the ship in the middle. It has no rowlocks and it's noticeably tubbier and deep than the apprently Norse designed ship seen on her left. again here: http://hastings1066.com/bayeux19.shtml Likewise, the second ship on the slight, the one heavily laden with horses and men has no rowlocks and is apparently very deep: only the heads of horses are visible from the gunwale. It's certainly far away from the design of a longship or even from more shallower Norse knarrs. Another crucial advantage that a keelless low draft Celtic ship for an invasion army is no doubt her safety of use in the tracherous sandy beaches of southern england which are strongly affected by channel currents. and now, the conclusion part by Professor Elmers about how long did celtic ship designs survived in western europe. Underlines are mine. "How the inland ships of the Celtic shipbuilding tradition survived beyond the end of the middle ages on the continent of Europe has been demonstrated above. The Germanic tribes who invaded the continent did not arrive by ship, and were not seafarers, so were likely to adopt the native style of vessel. However, in Britain every trace of the continued exitence of seagoing ships built to the Celtic tradition disappears after the end of Roman rule. the likely reason for this is that the Anglo-Saxons migrated to England in their own ships and subsequently continued to use them for their sea journeys, as the post-Roman ships excavated in London show very clearly.     It is probable that this reasoning does not hold true for Brittany and the adjacent Atlantic coastal regions, for no Germanic tribes migrated to those areas in their own ships. How long people in that region continued to buil ocean going ships based on the Celtic pattern is an open question, as archaeological research has produced no evidence to date. However, the writer suspects that the carvel construction which, in the late middle ages, spread out from this region towards the east can be traced back to Celtic carvel construction, which was the standard method in that area even before the advent of Caesar and the Romans." (the Earliest Ships, p. 71) Upon my interpretation of pictorial and archaeological evidence along with scholarly arguments, I'm greatly convinced that William of Normandy mobilised and used the proven eons old designs native to his recently conquered territories to good effect along with his ancestral Norse ships.

Well, I have had a look at your documentation, and while there are certain elements to be considered, in the main, it appears to still be fundamentally flawed.  Regarding the ship at Blackfriars, and the description by Julius Caesar, once again, you are mixing apples and oranges, because these ships are a thousand years older than the ships of Williams' time.  The Balckfriars vessel in particular is a Roman merchant ship, built to Roman standards of design and construction, and most likely originated from a shipyard in Italy (and very similar Roman cargo vessels have been excavated throughout the Mediterranean).  The ancient Greeks used to build a similar vessel, and a number of them have also been found.

Regarding the Bayeaux Tapestry, every single vessel depicted can easily be discerned to be of the Viking construction of one design or another (Knarrs, Drakkars, and Gokstad), and is in fact indicated as such in the notes for each image.  Remember, the Knarr is specifically designed to carry freight (like horses) with a small crew, and is sailed almost exclusively, not rowed, which explains the lack of oarports (have a look at this website for a good quick description and some relevant drawings of the basic Knarr design at http://www.cdli.ca/CITE/v_knarr.htm and/or on wikipedia.  Finally, there is even a portion of the Tapestry specifically detailing the ships being constructed (image 2 in part 2 of the Bayeaux website you mention above), and they are clearly being constructed by Viking methods of clinker construction, not carvel, Celtic or otherwise.

As for Professor Elmers, as I read your quotes, he specifies the survival of Celtic forms of inland craft in your quote above (such as river barges, etc).  He also specifies in your quote that all traces of sea-going Celtic craft disappeared at the end of Roman rule (450 AD), and that NO traces of any such craft have ever been found in the archeological record since that time.  I can tell you that DOZENS of Viking ships have been found all over Scandinavia, all over the British Isles, and France, Poland, and Russia too. 

So where are the Celts and their great ship-building influence?  Yes, the Germanic tribes that sacked the Roman empire did arrive overland, and were not initially seafarers, but that situation did not last very long, especially after their contact with the Danes.  Conversely, when the Vandals had pillaged their way as far as they could overland (Spain), they then learned how to construct ships (probably of Mediterranean design from the locals, but this is unknown), and shortly thereafter went over the sea to seize a sizeable kingdom in North Africa which lasted until the rise of Islam.  It would thus appear that the various Germanic tribes were quite capable of taking to the sea when needed.  The ancient Celtic-designed sea-going ships without keels would also be at a great disadvantage as far as sailing performance is concerned.  A Viking ship can not only sail well downwind, but can also tack and sail quite close to the wind too, which no flat-bottomed, keel-less craft can do (unless there are very large leeboards).  Viking ships were very good at landing on beaches (it is exactly what they were designed to do!), and did so as a standard everyday tactic (and their descendant boat-types do so to this very day). 

Finally, given the fact that the Viking ship-type was so popular for so many centuries, and that their methods of clinker construction for ships did not really give over to carvel construction in Northern Europe until the very late Medieval and early Renaissance, I would think it far more likely that carvel construction came to Northern Europe along with the various Mediterranean traders (Venetian, Genoese, Neapolitan, etc) and their ships than any sort of Celtic construction revival.  In other words, extraordinary claims must be supported by extraordinary proofs!

Hi Richard,

Here is a link to some neat variations on the plastic Crusader Cog model, along with a modified Viking ship, intended to represent an early form of castled vessel. The latter may not be totally accurate as it seems to ne using the Revell Germany model as a base, but the idea is very interesting and I like what he was trying to do.

http://www.modellmarine.de/phpwebsite/index.php?module=photoalbum&PHPWS_Album_op=view&PHPWS_Album_id=186&PAGER_limit=9&PAGER_start=9&PAGER_section=2

If that link does not work, try this one and go to page 2:

http://www.modellmarine.de/phpwebsite/index.php?module=photoalbum&PHPWS_Album_op=view&PHPWS_Album_id=186&PAGER_limit=9&PAGER_start=0&PAGER_section=1

Enjoy!

Jim

Jim,

Thank you for the links to the medieval ships.  I don't know how accurate it is but it looks fascinating and I have saved it on my favorites so that I can go back to it after I have reread several books on medieval shipping.   The lure of the "undiscovered country" of medieval and classical shipping is in part what draws me to it, metaphorically going somewhere where few have tread before.   It means, however, that I am more liable to paint ships based on incomplete information which will only be remedied many years later, at which time some historian, with the advantage of later escavations, will tear my paintings apart.   I will take the chance as it it too inviting to pass up.

Searat12, Emir,

This is a fascinating conversation and inspires me to extend my reading to help understand it.   You have whetted my appetite for information on this aspect of medieval ship history.   Thank you.

Richard 

hstry, paint away and enjoy, as art has never really been too close to reality as far as maritime subjects are concerned!  I can't tell you how many very well-known maritime paintings exist that are inaccurate in one way or another, and many times it is done deliberately to emphasize some feature or another.  For instance, there is a very famous painting depicting the delivery for burial of the body of the Emperor Napoleon by the French frigate Belle Poule, and the ship is depicted at almost twice her actual size in relation to all those surrounding in order to dramatize the event of lowering the draped casket to the boat to ferry it ashore.  Doubtless you are familiar with this and many other bits of 'artistic license' that do not detract, but rather enhance the scene the artist wishes to depict.  Best of luck, and I look forward to seeing your results one day!

Just a quick update, as I just finished a pretty good book on the activities of te Corsairs, at least those of the 16th century (Barbarossas, Dragut and Ali Basha).  The book is a reprint of a quite old book (1910) that apprently has come out of copyright, and so is now available in paperback for cheap money (I got mine for $4!).  The book is called 'Sea-Wolves Of The Mediterranean,' by E. Hamilton Currey.  The language is pretty flowery (as is to be expected for a book of this vintage), but the information is quite solid, and it contains a pretty good description of a number of the vessels used by the Corsairs and others in the Med at the time.

I have also found some refernces and ship diagrams which may help as companion pieces to the book.  See: http://www.keyshistory.org/SS-Sp-Sail-ships.html

And another:  http://www.shipwreck.net/glossary.html

And another: http://epress.anu.edu.au/spanish_lake/mobile_devices/ch01s05.html

And if you want to SEE a real Mediteranean galley of the Renaissance/Medieval type, look at:  http://www.galere.ch/accueil/

Heres another in Genoa: http://www.shipyard-lowyck.be/references_detail.php?lang=EN&itemno=26&categoryno=1

And if you want an excellent resource on just about any ship-type ever built, for which EXISTING full sized replicas are floating around (and believe you me, there is a huge number of just about anything you can imagine!), then you most definitely want to snoop around at:  http://www.timedesign.de/ship/ship.html