Iwata HP-CS or Badger Patriot?

I have the badger velocity and the Iwata HP...both are great brushes and as long as I do my part (Thin right, correct psi etc) they both do very well.  Go with either one as they will do you fine

HP-CS has a .3 needle witch is good for detailing and pre shading. not a brush for large coverage. 

the patriot...not sure on needle side. im thinking it's on the larger side witch is better for larger coverage. 

can't go wrong with either brush. 

i personally use iwata brushes and fine them very very easy to clean. 

i had the HP-CS and sold it because my HP-CR "revolution series" does everything i need. 

you can find a revolution CR for under 100 brand new. it has a .5 needle witch is awesome for large coverage but once you get the hang of it, fine detail work isn't a problem. 

Needle size is irrelevant in airbrushes and is only used as a selling point. 

Either would work just as well but Badger is all I own or will ever own. 

I had an Iwata HP-CS and I was not impressed with it and sold it.

personal preference.  

It's totally personal preference. I've owned both an HP-CS and a Patriot. I sold the Patriot, and, of my four airbrushes, the HP-CS is my workhorse, far and away.

The Badger's a fine brush, but had several quirks that I didn't warm too:

• A tendency to spit when you depress the trigger. My H&S brushes do this too. Not a dealbreaker, but frustrating. Neither of my Iwatas spit.
• All-or-nothing paint flow. I forget if the Patriot's needle is the double-taper or not, but it's like the brakes on the Honda CR-V the wife owned. You get nothing, then suddenly you get everything. I prefer the linear action of the Iwata.
• The end cap. The CS comes with a cap you can easily seal with a finger to gargle the paint. You can also get a slick crown cap for it for close-in work. The Badger's two prong setup you can't gargle with, and I was always paranoid about catching the needle on the airbrush holder.
• The balled needle that you can only extract out the back. I prefer to extract the needle through the front after an intense painting session so I don't smear paint all over the internals. Not possible with the Badger.

I'd also add that the CS can easily be converted from the .3mm needle it comes with to a .5mm needle/nozzle - I believe out of the CR or BR. The idea that needle sizes don't matter is in my experience hogwash, at least on the same brush. There's a very telling difference between the two on the CS.

Thanks. i too have had a evolution 2 in 1 and did not like the spitting or the air valve. It was too inconsitant with airflow. Big dissapointment.

My Iwata is a spitter when first depresed even with a new needle and nozzle. I also feel that the atomization is poor. I sent it in to Iwata to have the needle seal checked as I was getting a backwash of paint in the airbrush to the trigger. Thet claimed it was fine but is still doing it, so Iwata customer service is suspect for me.

I have ordered the Patriot from Badger. I have had a good reccomendation from a lhs and I feel let down with Iwata quality. It is a good airbrush, I just think my airbrush is off and if Iwata will not repair it, then what can I do? For the money I expected better.

DoogsATX

• The balled needle that you can only extract out the back. I prefer to extract the needle through the front after an intense painting session so I don't smear paint all over the internals. Not possible with the Badger.

 

I guess you don't understand the purpose of the needle bearing.

Never take the needle out with paint in the cup and always spray some cleaner through the airbrush before removing the needle and there won't be any paint where it doesn't belong. 

GreenThumb

 

DoogsATX:

 

• The balled needle that you can only extract out the back. I prefer to extract the needle through the front after an intense painting session so I don't smear paint all over the internals. Not possible with the Badger.

 

 

 

I guess you don't understand the purpose of the needle bearing.

Never take the needle out with paint in the cup and always spray some cleaner through the airbrush before removing the needle and there won't be any paint where it doesn't belong. 

Understand them just fine and I do clean out the brush before removing the needle. Usually thinner (or Windex for acrylics), a good scrub with a q-tip, flush 2-3 cupfulls, gargle, etc. THEN remove needle. 

But there's ALWAYS some paint on the needle. It varies by the paint I'm using...Model Master enamels are probably the worst at not just breaking down the moment cleaner hits them (but they're easy to remove with light wiping even days after the fact). And some of that paint does get pulled back if you pull the needle out from the back. Has on every airbrush I've ever owned. 

Nowhere near as bad as loading up your new airbrush, wondering why the spray pattern's so wide, and realizing you forgot to put the needle back in and oh god why's paint coming out of the trigger slot! (that's not fun...)

I agree with you, Doogs, but I think " smear paint all over the internals " is a bit of an exaggeration.  Yes, when I pull the needle on my Anthem, there is some paint on it.  But, it's just a light smear that might at most leave a touch in the needle chuck, although I've never noticed that.  In the Anthem and Patriot, the needle bearing sits very close to the paint chamber, and the pocket for paint to collect is very small.  The amount that doesn't get flushed is largely what has seeped inside the bearing.  Pulling the needle either direction actually wipes this out.  On the other hand, an airbrush with an adjustable needle seal usually has a narrow passage between the seal and the paint chamber that is difficult to flush.  With this type, I believe there is more reason to remove the needle from the front.  But, even here we're not talking about a lot of paint.

It is possible to push the Anthem or Patriot needle forward enough to clean it if you remove the handle first.  But, I've never found this necessary.

One problem with pulling the needle out the front is that the tip/nozzle must be removed.  On airbrushes with the tiny threaded nozzles that are easily damaged, this may not be a good idea.

Don

Yeah, smear all over's probably a bit much, it's a little bit at a time. But it's enough that, if I'm not meticulous about it, I'll find the needle stuck if I pick up the airbrush after a few days. And that's on every airbrush, except my Paasche H, which doesn't have a needle to get stuck. 

I can't believe I'm alone in this? If I'm being lazy and removing a needle from the back, it usually goes like this...clean and flush a few times, then pull out the needle, the length of which is smeared with a film of paint. Clean needle. Clean cup, paint channel, nozzle, etc. Reassemble. Reinsert needle. Notice that length of needle protruding from the body again has a film of paint on it. Lather, rinse, repeat. If I pull the needle out from the front, wipe it, then insert it back from the rear, I rarely if ever get that second film of paint.

When the shaft of the needle is being pulled backward through the seal, the seal will (unless it's worn) keep the paint on the "wet" side, wiping the needle as it passes through - but when the narrower taper & tip go through the seal the accumulated paint from the shaft can pass through the seal which can't seal on the narrower taper.

I always take the needle out through the front, clean it & then re-install it from the front - it could be argued that this will cause the needle seal to wear prematurely, but I can't say I've notice this.

It's quite common for finer needle tips to get damaged during insertion from the rear if they happen to contact the back of the chuck / chuck nut, hence my preference for not sticking it in from behind

I use an Infinity with a drop in nozzle, so dismantling in this fashion isn't a big deal.

Doogs -- I'm surprised you are getting that much paint on the needle.  I use enamel paints and clean with lacquer thinner, and I use a pumping action with an eyedropper to flush before pulling the needle.  Sometimes, if I think about it, I put a dab of airbrush lube on the needle when I put it back, but not usually.  I always spray some clean lacquer thinner as a final touch.  So, if there were any paint left on the front portion of the needle it would be washed off.

With the Patriot, there is enough room in the cup that you can take a small interdental brush, bend it at a right angle, and wipe the inside of the needle bearing.

But, you found a method that works for you, and that's what counts.  Maybe it will help someone else with the same problem.

Don

Don Wheeler

Doogs -- I'm surprised you are getting that much paint on the needle.  

You know I just read my post again and got it backwards...when I pull out from the back, the paint film is just on the portion from where the needle exposes out of the body forward. It's when I pull it out from the front that the whole thing is coated. But what happens after the first wipedown is all as I meant.

Apologies - haven't been at the bench in nearly a week now. Got something interesting going on that may have a big impact on me professionally, and it's been gobbling way too much of my time and brain cells.

I have received the Patriot and it seems great! I will work with it over the weekend. I am selling my HP-CS. It has 2 additional needles (.35) Let me know if anyone is interested. Thanks for the imput.

montague

I have received the Patriot and it seems great! I will work with it over the weekend. I am selling my HP-CS. It has 2 additional needles (.35) Let me know if anyone is interested. Thanks for the imput.

Did you get the Patriot with the fine (0.5 mm) or the standard (0.76 mm) needle?

I had both the Iwata HP-CS and the Patriot fine, but got rid of the later. I like the fine trigger control that the CS linear long stroke gives me. The Patriot trigger is much more sensitive and releases paint very quickly. For user with limited airbrush skill like me, the Iwata is much easier to use.

Let us know how you compare the two.

I have the extra fine tip. I will get on with the airbrush this weekend and will let you know. I really respect your view in particular so thanks for the response!

keilau

 I like the fine trigger control that the CS linear long stroke gives me. The Patriot trigger is much more sensitive and releases paint very quickly. For user with limited airbrush skill like me, the Iwata is much easier to use.

Let us know how you compare the two.

I've always equated trigger feel and action with car transmissions and engines. 

Harder & Steenbeck is super-precise, but there's a lightness that makes it a bit hard to "sense" where the needle's at. Even the Infinity, with it's adjustable trigger resistance, feels lighter than other brushes.

Badger has a rougher, stouter trigger feel that's always reminded me of a truck or utility vehicle. I actually quite liked it, just had problems getting my head around the needle design and all-or-nothing paint delivery.

Iwata feels to me like a balance between the two. Not as smooth and precise as H&S, but smoother and lighter than Badger.

DoogsATX

keilau:

 I like the fine trigger control that the CS linear long stroke gives me. The Patriot trigger is much more sensitive and releases paint very quickly. For user with limited airbrush skill like me, the Iwata is much easier to use.

Let us know how you compare the two.

 

I've always equated trigger feel and action with car transmissions and engines. 

Harder & Steenbeck is super-precise, but there's a lightness that makes it a bit hard to "sense" where the needle's at. Even the Infinity, with it's adjustable trigger resistance, feels lighter than other brushes.

Badger has a rougher, stouter trigger feel that's always reminded me of a truck or utility vehicle. I actually quite liked it, just had problems getting my head around the needle design and all-or-nothing paint delivery.

Iwata feels to me like a balance between the two. Not as smooth and precise as H&S, but smoother and lighter than Badger.

The above comments apply to the Badger Patriot and other "2 angles" needle Badger only. The Badger Krome is a completely different animal.

I've never used a badger, but this 190 was done with the HP-CS, all the camo is freehand and the black 7 and green heart are painted with stencils. I absolutely LOVE this thing. It makes even an amatuer like me look good, it's really easy to clean and maintain, and it rarely gives me any trouble. Once in a while it might have a hiccup or two, but for the most part i think it was the best modeling investment I've made. I now consider it as essential as an X-acto knife. I also added the triple action handle and I like the feature that allows me to use it like a single action, which is great for larger areas, and the quick flush works well when changing colors.

Nice. This was done freehand with the Badger Omni 4000 which is about equal to the Patriot.

The exhaust stains were airbrushed freehand as well.

Great Skyraider!! What did you use for the exhaust stains? Those always give me trouble.

DoogsATX

It's totally personal preference. I've owned both an HP-CS and a Patriot. I sold the Patriot, and, of my four airbrushes, the HP-CS is my workhorse, far and away.

The Badger's a fine brush, but had several quirks that I didn't warm too:

 

• A tendency to spit when you depress the trigger. My H&S brushes do this too. Not a dealbreaker, but frustrating. Neither of my Iwatas spit.
• All-or-nothing paint flow. I forget if the Patriot's needle is the double-taper or not, but it's like the brakes on the Honda CR-V the wife owned. You get nothing, then suddenly you get everything. I prefer the linear action of the Iwata.
• The end cap. The CS comes with a cap you can easily seal with a finger to gargle the paint. You can also get a slick crown cap for it for close-in work. The Badger's two prong setup you can't gargle with, and I was always paranoid about catching the needle on the airbrush holder.
• The balled needle that you can only extract out the back. I prefer to extract the needle through the front after an intense painting session so I don't smear paint all over the internals. Not possible with the Badger.

 

I'd also add that the CS can easily be converted from the .3mm needle it comes with to a .5mm needle/nozzle - I believe out of the CR or BR. The idea that needle sizes don't matter is in my experience hogwash, at least on the same brush. There's a very telling difference between the two on the CS.

DoogsATX

It's totally personal preference. I've owned both an HP-CS and a Patriot. I sold the Patriot, and, of my four airbrushes, the HP-CS is my workhorse, far and away.

The Badger's a fine brush, but had several quirks that I didn't warm too:

 

• A tendency to spit when you depress the trigger. My H&S brushes do this too. Not a dealbreaker, but frustrating. Neither of my Iwatas spit.
• All-or-nothing paint flow. I forget if the Patriot's needle is the double-taper or not, but it's like the brakes on the Honda CR-V the wife owned. You get nothing, then suddenly you get everything. I prefer the linear action of the Iwata.
• The end cap. The CS comes with a cap you can easily seal with a finger to gargle the paint. You can also get a slick crown cap for it for close-in work. The Badger's two prong setup you can't gargle with, and I was always paranoid about catching the needle on the airbrush holder.
• The balled needle that you can only extract out the back. I prefer to extract the needle through the front after an intense painting session so I don't smear paint all over the internals. Not possible with the Badger.

 

I'd also add that the CS can easily be converted from the .3mm needle it comes with to a .5mm needle/nozzle - I believe out of the CR or BR. The idea that needle sizes don't matter is in my experience hogwash, at least on the same brush. There's a very telling difference between the two on the CS.

 

nozzles aren't interchangeable on the CR and CS. they both have a different thread pitch. yeah, weird.  

randypandy831

DoogsATX:

I'd also add that the CS can easily be converted from the .3mm needle it comes with to a .5mm needle/nozzle - I believe out of the CR or BR. The idea that needle sizes don't matter is in my experience hogwash, at least on the same brush. There's a very telling difference between the two on the CS. 

 nozzles aren't interchangeable on the CR and CS. they both have a different thread pitch. yeah, weird.  

You are right that the Revolution HP-CR and Eclipse HP-CS parts are NOT interchangeable.

You can use the Eclipse HP-BCS parts to convert the HP-CS from 0.35 mm to 0.5 mm needle/nozzle. You need the nozzle cap (# I 601 1), nozzle (# I 604 1) and needle (# I 617 1) to complete the conversion. I got all three parts for about $18 at Hobby Lobby. There are different between the two Eclipse nozzle sizes, but the difference is small compared to that between the Eclipse and the Patriot.

Interestingly enough, the Revolution and High Performance series needles ARE interchangeable. Cyrus Tan published an article on converting the HP-CR to 0.3 mm tip using the High Performance Series HP-C+ needles for $30. The nozzle and nozzle cap are from the Revolution BR. The article is still on the Iwata-Medea web site, but you cannot nevigate to the article from the site index anymore. I wonder why? 

Yeah it's the BCS/BR parts that work on the CS, then, I think...got the swaps over a year ago so I've forgotten since then.

garylee

Great Skyraider!! What did you use for the exhaust stains? Those always give me trouble.

That was thinned Model Master Acryl believe it or not.