Badger Patriot 105

DoogsATX, very well articulated points. I hope that the new bee on the market for his/her first airbrush understands too.

What I am thinking now, is that I might get the Iwata airbrush because I would hardly ever used the .21 needle size as I am planning on using enamel paint most of the time. So the .35 needle and the .5 needle would be the better choice for me I think.

I don't think I would be missing out much because this would be my first airbrush so I would not know the difference between a badger an Iwata anyways. But since I do not know what kind of paint I would be using yet for sure, I may go for the Krome.

For right now I do not know for sure which airbrush I would be getting so my opinions may change in the near future. But in the meantime please keep the comments coming as they are a big help in helping me decide on which brush to get.

WutDaFunk

What I am thinking now, is that I might get the Iwata airbrush because I would hardly ever used the .21 needle size as I am planning on using enamel paint most of the time. So the .35 needle and the .5 needle would be the better choice for me I think.

I don't think I would be missing out much because this would be my first airbrush so I would not know the difference between a badger an Iwata anyways. But since I do not know what kind of paint I would be using yet for sure, I may go for the Krome.

For right now I do not know for sure which airbrush I would be getting so my opinions may change in the near future. But in the meantime please keep the comments coming as they are a big help in helping me decide on which brush to get.

WutDaFunk,

If you might be interested in the Krome  ArtSupply has the 2 in 1 on sale now for $97.00 which I think is a good price.

Also, in you search for info and for another modelers view of airbrushes for scale models have a look at Paul Budzik's site. In addition to AB's, have a look around his site, he's a master modeler.

Unfortunately, since this is your first airbrush, you won't know what you like or dislike until you use it for a while. Any quality airbrush will spray paint for you but likes and dislikes become personal - as I've said, I like my H&S Evolution because it feels right to me when I use it, not because other AB's are bad. Whichever you buy it's is going to take some practice.  HTH and good luck with your choice.

Keilau, I just need to ask, are you absolutely sure that about the relevance of the angle of the needle? Proof that it matters more than nozzle size? Because I have my doubts about it. Not that it's irrelevant, but as with most things, one of many contributing factors. Others than nozzle size and needle angle might be nozzle outside angle, surface polishing of the needle, nozzle inside polishing (though I doubt it) nozzle cap design, needle cap design, air feed channel design, paint channel design and so on. To isolate one or two things as what determines performance, might be making it a bit too simple.

And maybe, how do we define performance? Is it detail capability alone?

I'm not saying that you are wrong, but sometimes things can't be explained by one single factor. And sometimes things are the opposite of what you think is logical.

denstore

Keilau, I just need to ask, are you absolutely sure that about the relevance of the angle of the needle? Proof that it matters more than nozzle size? Because I have my doubts about it. Not that it's irrelevant, but as with most things, one of many contributing factors. Others than nozzle size and needle angle might be nozzle outside angle, surface polishing of the needle, nozzle inside polishing (though I doubt it) nozzle cap design, needle cap design, air feed channel design, paint channel design and so on. To isolate one or two things as what determines performance, might be making it a bit too simple.

And maybe, how do we define performance? Is it detail capability alone?

I'm not saying that you are wrong, but sometimes things can't be explained by one single factor. And sometimes things are the opposite of what you think is logical.

There are other things the end user cannot see too, such as the quality of the material of the needle and the annealing during manufacturing. Many users find difference in the springiness and resistence to damage of the needle from different brands. There is a reason to that. That's the crazy engineer in me talking.

It was more of a rhetoric question, but also a reaction to the fact that I know of a couple of airbrushes that I've tried that didn't have a small angle needle, but still where excellent detailing airbrushes. I would say that most, if not all, manufacturers match their needles to perform good with the nozzle of choice.

Usually large nozzle airbrushes comes with steeper angle needles, and vice versa.

Sometimes the angles might be a bit larger or smaller depending on what characteristic of trigger response and intended use the airbrush designer is looking for.

Nozzle size is certainly not the only factor interesting for describing "performance", but in general, nozzle size will be a fair point of reference within the brand, and quite often between brands as well. Needle angle hasn't had that impact. And in reality, few brands even mention it.

Hi Keilau and Denstore,

I don't know how to quote from two separate posts so will use cut and paste

Keilau you wrote:

"I don't do free hand camo and is not in a position to judge the fine detailing performance of anything."

But that is exactly what you were addressing when you wrote:

I am trying to address the misconception that Krome is a finer detailed airbrush than the HP-CS because it is 0.21 mm vs 0.35 mm nozzle."

Whether the Krome or HPCS is 'better' at detailing might depend on what you mean by detailing. If you were an airbrush artist trying to airbrush eyebrows you would likely choose one over the other.

And Denstore wrote:

"Nozzle size is certainly not the only factor interesting for describing "performance", but in general, nozzle size will be a fair point of reference within the brand, and quite often between brands as well. Needle angle hasn't had that impact. And in reality, few brands even mention it."

I sure agree with this!! There's as much physics involved in the design of an airbrush as there is engineering. Take any airbrush currently made and replace ALL components with aluminum. I think it would function quite well - probably not for long but quite well initially.

BUT, let's not mislead the OP with all these details. I don't think it matters one iota whether the needle angle is 6 or 60 degrees but a nozzle/needle combo of greater than 0.2mm is probably easier to learn. The Patriot might just be the airbrush he likes but he won't know till he tries it, So, I say, Watdafunk, ignore what all us experts say and buy what looks good to you. If you buy a brand name one it's likely to work quite well; buy a Badger, Grex, Iwata, Paasche or H&S and start painting.

Bick

Keilau you wrote:

"I don't do free hand camo and is not in a position to judge the fine detailing performance of anything."

But that is exactly what you were addressing when you wrote:

I am trying to address the misconception that Krome is a finer detailed airbrush than the HP-CS because it is 0.21 mm vs 0.35 mm nozzle."

Whether the Krome or HPCS is 'better' at detailing might depend on what you mean by detailing. If you were an airbrush artist trying to airbrush eyebrows you would likely choose one over the other.

In my personal opinion, the Krome and HP-CS both have enough performance for the average modeler. In that, I mean linear trigger action and small overspray when painting smaller area. I do not see the 0.21 mm nozzle of the Krome giving it an advantage over the 0.35 mm nozzle of the Iwata. But the comment does not apply to Patriot. From the beginning, my comments are meant for the "average" modeler.

If someone believe that the Patriot is as good as the Krome, I disagree.

If someone believe that the Krome can do finer detail than the HP-CS in free hand camo modeling, show me.

Which one you believe will do a better job airbrushing eyebrows? And I am not an artist and have no opinion on that. That is not the original post asking.

Problem is that there's no right or wrong here. Sure, the Patriot might be a good start for a novice airbrusher, since the large nozzle almost eliminates the need of learning to thin paint properly. But on the other hand, it might not be the best for detail work, especially if the user hasn't understood the necessity of proper thinning of paint. And I suppose that the Patriot with the "superfine" conversion might give it detailing properties, but then the user must learn to thin anyway.

The Eclipse on the other hand has a medium nozzle as is, and used with modern modeling paint thinned about 50/50, will probably be enough for most modelers, both when it comes to ease of maintenance and use, and performance. I would almost say its foolproof. The real strength of the Eclipse is that there isn't any real need to change nozzles. It is good as delivered, for most modeling work.

For serious detailing work, there are plenty of airbrushes that are better, but few that are as versatile as the Eclipse. It is not my favorite airbrush. I like it, but as most jacks of all trades, its a master of none. To me, that owns a lot of airbrushes, of several brands, I prefer specialized airbrushes, made for one type of work alone. But that isn't the need of the average airbrusher (and in reality, probably not me either :D), and then the Eclipse will probably shine for people wanting one airbrush only.

And when it comes to the Krome, I can't really say, since I havn't tried it. But if it is similar to the Velocity that I tried, I would say that it is a better detailer than the Eclipse, but again needs good knowledge in thinning paint. And in my opinion it is a bit to large to be a really great detailer. If detail alone is what the buyer is looking for, I believe that there are better alternatives, even within the Badger brand.

denstore

And when it comes to the Krome, I can't really say, since I havn't tried it. But if it is similar to the Velocity that I tried, I would say that it is a better detailer than the Eclipse, but again needs good knowledge in thinning paint. And in my opinion it is a bit to large to be a really great detailer. If detail alone is what the buyer is looking for, I believe that there are better alternatives, even within the Badger brand.

The reason I was mentioning sizes was because enamels are thicker, so thinning wouldn't be as critical. Also I'll be base coating/pre shading 99% of the time so wider coverage = better.

That depends on what acrylics and enamels you chose. Some acrylics are very thin, but others, like Vallejo, are very thick. My guess is that it's the same with enamels. I have only tried a few brands, but there where differences.

I would say that if you at this moment plan to do lot of pre shade work, something with a little better detail control would be appropriate. Pre shade doesn't need to be hairline thin, but IMHO, it is better with a variety. And the covering layers after the pre shade must be thin, so I would say that a medium nozzle airbrush would be OK even for cover. Of course it depends on what scales you build, but 0.3-0.4mm is about perfect for 1/48 aircraft.

Take a look at the Grex XG as well. It is a very good airbrush. When I had my airbrush business, it was the airbrush that had the most satisfied customers.

I apologize for over reacting before. I hope that I didn't offend anyone.

Didn't offend me - glad to see you still here and posting.

The Badger Patriot 105 comes in the box with 0.5 mm. But the main thing to pay attention to is that the needle tips are very sensitive. This is the point that badger already boasts. But I am on the wing that you should use it very carefully. The article I read gives more detailed information on this subject.

All I can say is, it's too bad Doog doesn't hang around here anymore. 

2013?