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Paint not sticking

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  • Member since
    December 2014
Paint not sticking
Posted by rsm.gbg on Wednesday, September 9, 2015 6:42 PM

Hi,

After a couple of models done with brushes I decided to get airbrushing a go.

I just got a cheap one to start off from the local ALDI store. $99 AUD with a small compressor.
Previously I have used Humbrol Enamels for my brushes.
Now I went on recomendations to Acrylic HobbyColor and same thinner.
I thin 50/50 by recomomendations.
Airbrushing is quite easy I think and the result is awesome.
But the paint doesn't stick that well on the model!?
Light touches by fingers and the paint is off.
I done the normal cleaning of the sprues as I've done previously.
I though the paint was bad and tried another color same brand, but no it doesn't stick.
I changed to Tamiya Acrylic paint and it's the same.
Is it the plastic in the model? I don't know, havent tried on any other yet.
The model is a Tamiya 72 scale Mitsubishi A6M5.

Any advice appreciated.

- Roland

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Wednesday, September 9, 2015 6:45 PM

It's really essential that you prime first. Are you doing that?

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    December 2014
Posted by rsm.gbg on Wednesday, September 9, 2015 6:53 PM

Hi,

That was a quick reply :)

No, I'm not.
What should I prime with?
I never primed before brushing with no problems both Enamel and Acrylics?
But that was all Humbrol though.

- Roland

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: Sydney, Australia
Posted by Phil_H on Wednesday, September 9, 2015 7:00 PM

How long are you leaving it to dry before touching?

Tamiya paints (in fact most paints) will appear to be dry within minutes of airbrushing. However, they are quite soft and fragile and require 18-24 hours to fully cure and harden. 

 

  • Member since
    March 2010
  • From: MN
Posted by Nathan T on Wednesday, September 9, 2015 7:14 PM

What are you using for a thinner? 

 

 

  • Member since
    December 2014
Posted by rsm.gbg on Wednesday, September 9, 2015 7:55 PM

Hi,

I'm in the garage painting and leave it over night, or 2 night, so at least 24 hours.

-Roland

  • Member since
    December 2014
Posted by rsm.gbg on Wednesday, September 9, 2015 7:56 PM

I use the Hobby Color acrylic thinner.
I used the same for the Tamiya paint.

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Wednesday, September 9, 2015 8:06 PM

Are you talking about Gunze Acrylic Hobby Color? That is one of the best acrylics to be found for adhesion and hardiness. Tamiya is a bit less so in my experience. Try using less thinner, around 2 parts paint to 1 part thinner as a starting point for a mix ratio. 50/50 is I usually too much thinner.

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    December 2014
Posted by rsm.gbg on Wednesday, September 9, 2015 8:55 PM

Mr.Hobby Acrylic Hobby Color.
A bit of googling shows they where Gunze.
Colors: http://www.mr-hobby.com/en/itemDetail.php?iId=83
Thinner: http://www.mr-hobby.com/en/itemDetail.php?iId=85

  • Member since
    December 2011
Posted by Chrisk-k on Wednesday, September 9, 2015 9:09 PM

rsm.gbg

I use the Hobby Color acrylic thinner.
I used the same for the Tamiya paint.

Hobby Color is water-based and Tamiya is alcohol-based.  You should use an alcohol-based thinner. 

I thin Tamiya acrylics 50% with a Tamiya acrylic thinner, and have never had an adhesion problem.

Iwata HP-CS | Iwata HP-CR | Iwata HP-M2 | H&S Evolution | Iwata Smart Jet + Sparmax Tank

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Wednesday, September 9, 2015 9:37 PM

Yeah, the Gunze acrylic, with their thinner, is the best acrylic I have ever airbrushed. I LOVE that stuff! Tamiya plastic is also good, and not known for mold release residue. What are you using to clean your sprues? I never primed before using Mr Color, or had any adhesion problems, so I can't pin down a cause for yours. If you want to try priming first, Humbrol has a good primer in their enamel tins. Thin it with their thinner and airbrush it on before your Mr Color. If you don't want to primer first, I again suggest less thinner in your mix ratio for Mr Color.

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    December 2014
Posted by rsm.gbg on Wednesday, September 9, 2015 10:55 PM

Home and test then.
I will keep you posted with my findings.

Thanks for helping out.

  • Member since
    December 2014
Posted by rsm.gbg on Wednesday, September 9, 2015 11:05 PM

another thought.
When airbrushing in my garage its not really warm, maybe 10-15 degrees celsius.

I though of that and I always paint in the garage and I tried leaving them in there and take them indoor straight after I finished.
I can't notice any difference.
could airbrushing in 10+ degrees make a difference?
oh, and I have the paints in the garage as well, could it be too cold paint?

The first time I tried airbrushing I took the paint from indoors and then they where warm.

10C = 50F, 15C = 59F

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: Sydney, Australia
Posted by Phil_H on Thursday, September 10, 2015 2:26 AM

Chrisk-k
Hobby Color is water-based and Tamiya is alcohol-based. You should use an alcohol-based thinner.

(Mr Hobby) Aqueous Hobby Color and Tamiya acrylics are very similar. So much so that you can thin either type of paint with Mr Hobby Aqueous thinner, Tamiya acrylic thinner, Mr Color (lacquer) thinner or Tamiya lacquer thinner (or with Isopropyl alcohol or denatured alcohol).

As far as thinning ratios go, I have used up to 75% Tamiya acrylic thinner (X-20A) to 25% paint (Tamiya acrylic) without any adhesion problems. I have also used denatured alcohol or Tamiya lacquer thinner up to 80% to 20% paint, again without any problems. You can thin Tamiya acrylics a long, long way and still get good adhesion.

  • Member since
    September 2006
  • From: Bethlehem PA
Posted by the Baron on Thursday, September 10, 2015 8:41 AM

rsm.gbg

Hi,

That was a quick reply :)

No, I'm not.
What should I prime with?
I never primed before brushing with no problems both Enamel and Acrylics?
But that was all Humbrol though.

- Roland

 

 
It doesn't look like we addressed your question about priming. 
 
Not only is it a good idea to prime the piece, but I recommend cleaning the parts before you even begin to assemble it.  Washing the sprues removes mold release compounds, which can impede good paint adherence.
 
I use an old glass baking dish, big enough to hold a sprue, so, around 10" long or so.  I use warm water with a couple of drops of a de-greaser added.  Many guys use dishwashing liquid, which usually has de-greasing agents.  I switched a couple of years ago to an automotive de-greaser, Super Clean.  It leaves the plastic literally squeaky-clean.  I soak the sprues in the water and use an old toothbrush to scrub them gently.  I let them air-dry on pieces of paper toweling.
 
Then I prime the parts.  Priming helps ensure good adhesion for your finish coats of paint.  There are as many suggestions for primer to use as there are modelers.  I used to use automotive primer exclusively, but I recently switched to Tamiya's rattle-can surface primer.  I found that it has a finer surface than the automotive primers I used, but provides a good "tooth" for the top coats of paint.  I still use the automotive primers from some things, like my toy soldiers, but for all of my models--aircraft, ships, resin figures--I now use Tamiya.  I know of some guys who use Mr Surfacer as a primer, which makes sense, but I haven't tried that yet myself.
 
After priming, some guys will do another surface cleaning, again, to provide as clean a surface free of dust and dirt as possible, to remove anything that might interfere with paint adhesion.  I personally don't do that, though I will use a piece of an old T-shirt to wipe away dust as necessary.
 
I hope that helps, and I'm sure the rest of the group will have better advice for you.
 
Best regards,
Brad
 

The bigger the government, the smaller the citizen.

 

 

  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: Twin Cities of Minnesota
Posted by Don Stauffer on Thursday, September 10, 2015 9:44 AM

You didn't detail your "normal" cleaning method.  Most styrene kits these days do not require very much in the way of cleaning, but once in awhile a kit, especially some of the smaller European mfg's kits, do require a thorough cleaning (often mentioned in reviews).  Because of the rarity of these kits these days, this probably isn't the problem, but it is worth considering.

Don Stauffer in Minnesota

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Thursday, September 10, 2015 12:13 PM

Don Stauffer

You didn't detail your "normal" cleaning method.  Most styrene kits these days do not require very much in the way of cleaning, but once in awhile a kit, especially some of the smaller European mfg's kits, do require a thorough cleaning (often mentioned in reviews).  Because of the rarity of these kits these days, this probably isn't the problem, but it is worth considering.

 

I suspect that the prime causal factor may lay in that area. As I said above, Tamiya plastic has never had a problem taking any paint in the 40+ years that I have been building their kits, nor have I ever encountered and mold release residue on their kits. Their quality control has always been top grade.  

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    December 2011
Posted by Chrisk-k on Thursday, September 10, 2015 5:29 PM

Phil_H

(Mr Hobby) Aqueous Hobby Color and Tamiya acrylics are very similar. So much so that you can thin either type of paint with Mr Hobby Aqueous thinner, Tamiya acrylic thinner, Mr Color (lacquer) thinner or Tamiya lacquer thinner (or with Isopropyl alcohol or denatured alcohol).

Interesting. Hobby Color is described as water-based. So I guess not every water-based acrylic is the same.

Iwata HP-CS | Iwata HP-CR | Iwata HP-M2 | H&S Evolution | Iwata Smart Jet + Sparmax Tank

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Thursday, September 10, 2015 5:37 PM

Phil H.: "(Mr Hobby) Aqueous Hobby Color and Tamiya acrylics are very similar. So much so that you can thin either type of paint with Mr Hobby Aqueous thinner, Tamiya acrylic thinner, Mr Color (lacquer) thinner or Tamiya lacquer thinner (or with Isopropyl alcohol or denatured alcohol)."

Maybe, but never use anything else called lacquer thinner in Tamiya Acrylic, it produces gum.

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Thursday, September 10, 2015 6:50 PM

GMorrison

Phil H.: "(Mr Hobby) Aqueous Hobby Color and Tamiya acrylics are very similar. So much so that you can thin either type of paint with Mr Hobby Aqueous thinner, Tamiya acrylic thinner, Mr Color (lacquer) thinner or Tamiya lacquer thinner (or with Isopropyl alcohol or denatured alcohol)."

Maybe, but never use anything else called lacquer thinner in Tamiya Acrylic, it produces gum.

 

GM, I used generic lacquer thinner to thin Tamiya Acrylics for the first time during my last airbrushing session. The stuff worked beautifully!!!! Nice tough finish too!

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    March 2010
  • From: MN
Posted by Nathan T on Thursday, September 10, 2015 7:15 PM

Temps are way too cold!!! Airbrush indoors man! And keep your paints at room temperature too!!!

 

 

  • Member since
    December 2014
Posted by rsm.gbg on Thursday, September 10, 2015 8:06 PM

Yea, I think my first test is to go indoors.

Cleaning.
I used the same method as I've been doing before, using brushes which had perfect result.
I soak in lukewarm dishliquid water, rinse and let airdry.
Why would airbrushing be different from brushes in terms of adhesivness?

I will do some testing over the weekend.

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Thursday, September 10, 2015 8:19 PM

The paint is stronger/thicker when it is hand brushed on. Airbrushed paint has been thinned and potentially this can alter the adhereing properties of the paint. I suggest you try a wipe down of the kit using rubbing alcohol or  some sort of plastic cleaner (that does not contain ammonia) prior to your next air brush session.

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    November 2008
  • From: Central Florida
Posted by plasticjunkie on Friday, September 11, 2015 11:17 AM

Your experience is very interesting. I have found that Tamiya acrylics spray very well and are just about bullet proof with excellent adhesion. I did find that MM Acryl will easily lift when removing masking tape unless you prime first with a solvent type primer.

 GIFMaker.org_jy_Ayj_O

 

 

Too many models to build, not enough time in a lifetime!!

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Friday, September 11, 2015 11:25 AM

stikpusher

 

 
GMorrison

Phil H.: "(Mr Hobby) Aqueous Hobby Color and Tamiya acrylics are very similar. So much so that you can thin either type of paint with Mr Hobby Aqueous thinner, Tamiya acrylic thinner, Mr Color (lacquer) thinner or Tamiya lacquer thinner (or with Isopropyl alcohol or denatured alcohol)."

Maybe, but never use anything else called lacquer thinner in Tamiya Acrylic, it produces gum.

 

 

 

GM, I used generic lacquer thinner to thin Tamiya Acrylics for the first time during my last airbrushing session. The stuff worked beautifully!!!! Nice tough finish too!

 

Brush still working????

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Friday, September 11, 2015 11:27 AM

GMorrison
 
stikpusher

 

 
GMorrison

Phil H.: "(Mr Hobby) Aqueous Hobby Color and Tamiya acrylics are very similar. So much so that you can thin either type of paint with Mr Hobby Aqueous thinner, Tamiya acrylic thinner, Mr Color (lacquer) thinner or Tamiya lacquer thinner (or with Isopropyl alcohol or denatured alcohol)."

Maybe, but never use anything else called lacquer thinner in Tamiya Acrylic, it produces gum.

 

 

 

GM, I used generic lacquer thinner to thin Tamiya Acrylics for the first time during my last airbrushing session. The stuff worked beautifully!!!! Nice tough finish too!

 

 

 

Brush still working????

 

 

Yes sir...

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Friday, September 11, 2015 12:39 PM

BTW about to go out and put another Tamiya color coat on a certain really big maritime patrol a/c...

I'm thinning with X-20A no problems so far.

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    December 2014
Posted by rsm.gbg on Saturday, September 12, 2015 5:29 AM

Some testing today.

1. Airbrush with 50/50 and hand brush with same.

2. Airbrush with 75 paint 25 thinner and hand brush with same.

3. Airbrush with 25 paint 75 thinner and hand brush with same.

4. Hand brush 100% paint

All with Mr.Hobby
Today it was quite warm 22C, 72F.
All drying inside over night.
If it adheres well to the plastic in any of these tests it must be the lower temperature.

Results tomorrow

  • Member since
    December 2014
Posted by rsm.gbg on Saturday, September 12, 2015 5:29 PM

Results: still same for all, it doesn't stick.
For the record, I cleaned  all parts with thinner this time and let dry for an hour.

Ruled out.

* temperature
* Airbrush, same with hand brush
* Sanding, I had to sand down the nose first,  (1200 grit)
* Paint, this was with 3 different colors. 1 Tamiya 2 Mr.Hobby

new tests,

1. wait another 24 hours
2. Second coat!
3. Prime, gotta get primer first...
4. Airbrush with Humbrol Enamel

  • Member since
    December 2011
Posted by Chrisk-k on Saturday, September 12, 2015 6:17 PM

Then, your definition of "stick" may be different. Hobby paints are not like automobile paints. 

Iwata HP-CS | Iwata HP-CR | Iwata HP-M2 | H&S Evolution | Iwata Smart Jet + Sparmax Tank

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