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Primer & Paint question - Tamiya & Model color

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  • Member since
    October 2016
  • From: Louisiana Gulf South
Primer & Paint question - Tamiya & Model color
Posted by Mrchntmarine on Monday, April 8, 2024 2:24 PM

So ive not built a of of variety lately - last 3 kits older revells.  On the former i had some paint issues - not sticking & pulling off with tape.  So i re-did the piant & primer after stripping & a comet wash and switched to a different primer from stynlrez and all went well.  For this revell kit ( Another Dr. Lykes) , i washed and Comet as before, but used Tamiya Fine Surface Primer then Vallejo Model color 70.962, Calvery Brown.  So now i notice some paint chipping off - the calvery brown.  I see white underneath so its hard to tell if thats the plastic im seeing or the primer.

 

Theres no hard & fast rule on using same brand paint & primer, right?  I see a lot of people mixing brands - but BEST not to??  This perplexs me.  The Tamiya Fine Surface Primer gets good reviews.  Guessing its almost, if not entirely, impossible to tell where the issue might lay - primer, paint, not enough shaking, too light a top coat, etc...

 

Thoughts please.  Tks!

Keep on modeling!

All the best,

William

  • Member since
    November 2018
Posted by oldermodelguy on Monday, April 8, 2024 5:03 PM

Did you brush or spray the Vallejo Model Color ? And if sprayed, how did you thin it, with what products.

What color is the primer ? If not white, then clearly you are seeing plastic where the paint pulled off.

  • Member since
    July 2011
  • From: Armpit of NY
Posted by MJames70 on Monday, April 8, 2024 5:11 PM

Vallejo is (in)famous for its poor adhesion. That's likely the main issue. 

  • Member since
    April 2020
Posted by Eaglecash867 on Monday, April 8, 2024 5:49 PM

Ditto  The Vallejo gets my vote too for being the culprit.

"You can have my illegal fireworks when you pry them from my cold, dead fingers...which are...over there somewhere."

  • Member since
    September 2006
  • From: Bethlehem PA
Posted by the Baron on Tuesday, April 9, 2024 12:34 PM

I have to say it's more likely the Vallejo Cavalry Brown than the Tamiya Fine Surface Primer, too.

You didn't say how you applied the Vallejo paint, but if it's Cavalry Brown from the Model Color line, and you airbrushed it, that would be another mark in my mind that the issue is with the Vallejo paint.  Their Model Color line can be airbrushed, it's true, but then, a lot of paints can be applied with an airbrush.  But the Model Color line is made for brushing by hand; it's a favorite among figure painters.  Vallejo's Model Air line of paints is formulated for airbrushing-though it can be applied by hand.  But the Model Air line has a selection of adjuncts to use when airbrushing, which increases the complexity of the process, in my opinion.

I have a dozen or so Vallejo Model Color paints in my paintbox, and I agree that they are more sensitive to scuffing, chipping, and other kinds of wear, as I handle a piece, until I can seal the color coats.  I use Tamiya's Fine Surface Primer, and have no problems with that primer.

The bigger the government, the smaller the citizen.

 

 

  • Member since
    October 2016
  • From: Louisiana Gulf South
Posted by Mrchntmarine on Tuesday, April 9, 2024 2:38 PM

Oops - i knoew i foprgot something!!  I airbrushed the VMC calvary brown.  10 drops paint, 2 drops thinner and 2 drops flow improver - all Vallejo paint/thinners/flow improver.

 

Maybe i shpould hasve done the Air line of paints....

Keep on modeling!

All the best,

William

  • Member since
    July 2011
  • From: Armpit of NY
Posted by MJames70 on Tuesday, April 9, 2024 6:02 PM

Sorry to say, I think you're going to get mediocre results from Vallejo, whether it's intended for airbrushing, or not. Model Color, Model Air, Game Color, etc. are all notorious for poor adhesion. They're fine for figure painters, who generally don't mask or handle their work very much at all. Other kinds of modeling, not so much. 

  • Member since
    October 2021
Posted by PhoenixG on Wednesday, April 10, 2024 12:33 AM

I use Vallejo paints pretty much exclusively on my kits and while I've never had an issue with masking peeling the paint off I have had issues with it chipping easily and it wouldn't sand worth a darn.  Wil have to jump on that bandwagon that it is likely that.  However...

I discovered it doesn't harden properly at room temperature.  I've taken to curing everything in a box at 112F.  After a several hours in there it hardens nicely. The paint is much more durable and can be sanded afterwards. 

My paint dryer is nothing more than a simple cardboard box with a 60W incandescent bulb in it.

On the Bench:

Bandai Starblazers 2202 Garmillas Zoellugut

  • Member since
    November 2018
Posted by oldermodelguy on Wednesday, April 10, 2024 5:56 AM

PhoenixG

I use Vallejo paints pretty much exclusively on my kits and while I've never had an issue with masking peeling the paint off I have had issues with it chipping easily and it wouldn't sand worth a darn.  Wil have to jump on that bandwagon that it is likely that.  However...

I discovered it doesn't harden properly at room temperature.  I've taken to curing everything in a box at 112F.  After a several hours in there it hardens nicely. The paint is much more durable and can be sanded afterwards. 

My paint dryer is nothing more than a simple cardboard box with a 60W incandescent bulb in it.

 

I agee, especially on the heat aspect of your post. It also helps to put the first couple of coats on very light and heat set those with a hair dryer to flash dry. Also in my experience , with final heat setting in a dehydrator, I only do 30 minutes @ 110f. Great improvement in scratch tests were revealed in my testing this method.And others supported my findings by having done something similar as well.

Also we noticed right in this forum several folks not complaining about Vallejo and it was found that all who were complaining were just room drying. That left the paint with a tacky or rubbery feel, even weeks later. Those of us heat setting got a harder shell finish. I personally have no complaints . And I don't even thin mine with Vallejo products, but I heat set the stuff..

Still, on a large ship hull ( not saying the OP hull is large) I probably wouldnt pick Vallejo. I'd probly mix the color myself from Rustoleum 2x enamel, decanted. Thin it extra with lacquer thinner and spray it with my Paasche H airbrush or even my LVLP touch up spray gun. Everything levels out nice with that method. Over lapping patterns melt in nicely with enamels. Doesn't have to be 2x, but you can't beat the quantity lol. Just sayin.

 

  • Member since
    October 2016
  • From: Louisiana Gulf South
Posted by Mrchntmarine on Saturday, May 4, 2024 11:15 AM

Thaks all.  I agree on the tacky part too.  Maybe ill try the lightbulb trick

Keep on modeling!

All the best,

William

fox
  • Member since
    January 2007
  • From: Narvon, Pa.
Posted by fox on Sunday, May 5, 2024 8:10 AM

I have been using Vallejo Model Air for years with no problems. I use Rustoleum primer decanted and used in airbrush. I use VMA thinned with distilled water, if needed, and a few drops of flow improver. After spraying, I close the sheer curtain on the spraybooth and leave the exhaust on for a few hours to aid drying. The sheer curtain on the booth catches any dust pulled into the booth. Every few months, when it starts turning grey with dust, I take the curtain down and throw it in the washer. I guess I've just been lucky with my method. Oh, one other item that could be affecting your painting is the humidity of the area your painting in. High humidity can cause all sorts of problems.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/y7uYDMLyBvCtT3mNA

Hope that this helps.

Stay safe.

Jim Captain

 

 Main WIP: 

   On the Bench: Artesania Latina  (aka) Artists in the Latrine 1/75 Bluenose II

I keep hitting "escape", but I'm still here.

  • Member since
    October 2016
  • From: Louisiana Gulf South
Posted by Mrchntmarine on Friday, May 17, 2024 7:05 AM

Will Heres the final version - I know I know , plastic stands & all. But , I did finally get a wooden block mount to try and start drillinling holes and mounting so I can make my own!  Anyway, a commission for one of my brothers. Guessing it's the last one of these I'll,do - maybe forever.? Lots of broken booms, etc on this one. And generally more of a challenge than the others - eye sight , a little hand cra,ping & patience!  It is what it is - very pleased!

 

Keep on modeling!

All the best,

William

  • Member since
    October 2019
  • From: New Braunfels, Texas
Posted by Tanker-Builder on Friday, May 17, 2024 10:02 AM

MrchntMarine:

        I didn't read your whole post. I stopped when I got to which ship it was. You know, what you outlined isn't funny. Over the years I have built probably fifteen of the model. Each one was the same. Either a lot flash and broken parts, or, the paint didn't want to stick.

        I had one I was doing as a early MAERSK ship. Guess what?, The primer I used, Available at your local hardware store(Rustoleum, Dove Grey general purpose primer didn't Stick!) Geez! That stuff, in my experience even sticks to badly mixed Fibre-Glass Resin!

        I wonder this! When I worked for a plastics company in L.A.,Cal. We would recycle what we didn't want to throw out. Sometimes It was weird when it was re-Used. Same problem! I wonder if that is what Revell was doing?

  • Member since
    October 2019
  • From: New Braunfels, Texas
Posted by Tanker-Builder on Friday, May 17, 2024 10:14 AM

Hi!

     Listen, I just want to say, I have had Wonderful Results with Mr Hobby-Mr Color Surfacer-500! It seems to stick just fine for me. When I first bought this stuff, I got it home and Immediately dosed it with Four Drops(Pea Sized) of Mr Color Thinner and two of the same size drops of my Tamiya retarder, because I do a lot of brushwork!

    It has never failed me and I love the stuff! Some of the brands are to quirky for me and that is ONE of the reasons I Totally did not like any aspect of Acrylic paint only! Give me my old fashioned Model-Master Military and Model car Paint line !

  • Member since
    November 2018
Posted by oldermodelguy on Saturday, May 18, 2024 2:17 PM

Mrchntmarine

Will Heres the final version - I know I know , plastic stands & all. But , I did finally get a wooden block mount to try and start drillinling holes and mounting so I can make my own!  Anyway, a commission for one of my brothers. Guessing it's the last one of these I'll,do - maybe forever.? Lots of broken booms, etc on this one. And generally more of a challenge than the others - eye sight , a little hand cra,ping & patience!  It is what it is - very pleased!

 

 

Looks to me like you ended up winning the battle ! Congrats !

  • Member since
    October 2019
  • From: New Braunfels, Texas
Posted by Tanker-Builder on Tuesday, May 21, 2024 7:58 AM

Well, Gee Whiz!

       You did a fair dinkum job there mate! That model looks straight up. Kudos!

  • Member since
    October 2016
  • From: Louisiana Gulf South
Posted by Mrchntmarine on Wednesday, May 22, 2024 8:32 PM

Thanks all!  3 of those booms were busted and other little challenges. Always learning and most of the time not too frustrating. Haha. 

Keep on modeling!

All the best,

William

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