Spray booth explosion

ruddratt wrote:

Bgrigg wrote: Like the "I before E except after C" rule, which has no weight when science can disprove it so easily...   OK, I definitely got a chuckle out of that!

But you missed weight!

Bgrigg wrote:

But you missed weight!

Oooooops! I guess I should have had more caffeine this morning.

ruddratt wrote:

Bgrigg wrote: But you missed weight! Oooooops! I guess I should have had more caffeine this morning.

Actually, the rule continues "and except before gh as in neighbor and weigh."

But the problem with english is that it is a hoodlum language—It will follow any other language into a dark alley, knock it on the head, and riffle through its pockets for loose vocabulary and syntax…

This is only meant to spark discussion and not a knock at anyone in particular.  Or to question anybody's family tree.  Also I am fairly big on safety etc.  A co-worker of mine died a year ago after a three month fight from severe burns over 95% of his body.  The result of carpet mastic fumes in his basement finally reaching the waterheater. 

I haven't read "every" thread regarding spray booths..........but,  Has there been anyone that has had, or know of a fire from a modeling spray booth?  I restored cars for almost ten years.  I learned body work from a friend that owned a body shop.  When I started working with him he worked out of an over-sized two car garage.  The exhaust, a $20 box fan in a plywood plenum.    Fancy spay booths are a recent trend.  Keep in mind when you spray a car you spray 2-3 GALLONS of total material. 

 I sure won't question all the engineering data.  But If you build a class A booth and spray 3 feet from you gas water heater and gas furnace,  your odds of disaster are multiple times higher than a crappy booth in a large area that is reasonably ventilated.  Better yet a garage.  It would seem the real concern is being anywhere near open flame or being careless enough to have a fan that has any spark or poor wiring connections. 

 I know all this sounds a little smart-assed but I'm all ears if there are real concerns. 

Explosion proof componants for marine aps are needed because you have a motor, batteries, lots of  electrical componants, and fumes in a small compartment in many cases.   

A co-worker of mine died a year ago after a three month fight from severe burns over 95% of his body.

So you may have some idea of how dangerous burns are, and an inkling of how painful. Unless you've had the experience, you really can't imagine. But that alone is more than sufficient reason.

There are thousands of things one can do that might, eventually, get one hurt or killed. Because the chance of any single incident resulting in injury or death, people discount the possibility. Idiots play golf in thunderstorms. Every now and then, one gets fried. Other idiots drive ten miles when the wind chill is -30°F, and don't have a coat in the car. Occasionally, one ends up as a frozen turkey. You can stand down range at a local shooting range all day, and your chances of getting shot are statistically almost nil. That does not make it a good idea. Similarly, if in the last fifty years, only one fire has occurred in a personal, hobby spray booth that resulted in an injury, that does not make it something you want to happen to you. There are already sufficient people saying "Why the <expletive deleted> didn't I ______!" and others of whom it is said "Why the <expletive deleted> didn't he/she ______!"

I hate it when I'm one of those people. At that point, it usually hurts when I cuss… 

We all do stupid things. Seems to be part of human nature. So the idea is to eliminate as many opportunities for ingenious stupidity as we reasonably can. 

I've been in a burning building. I've had a severe burn. Firefighters are the bravest people on earth. I'm not taking any chances.

Your point about other sources of ignition nearby is well taken—another reason for a well designed and constructed booth.

As for sounding smart-assed, that's okay. Here's one back at you: "…the exhaust, a $20 box fan in a plywood plenum."

Right. Don't bother with contests of luck. For you, it's a complete waste of time.

One thing I was sure of with my post was a variety of responses.  Actually I am on the same page with you guys when it comes to "If I had only done....................     Believe me, whatever set up I use will be as safe as I think is reasonable.  REASONABLE is a word that gets lost in so much these days.  And yes I will probably make a spray booth that is close to ideal.  One lesson I have learned from many hobbies is If you buy the entry level tool that is so-so your odds of success decrease.  And in many cases you end up buying the better tool anyway thereby spending more in the long run.

I brought these points up because this reminds me of the scare of child abduction by a stranger.  Literally a few a year in the US.  Death or serious injury of a child while riding a bike without a helmet....multiples higher.  But which one gets all the discussion and emotional reaction??? My point was use common sense with your set up,  My guess is a lot of people can't afford a high-end booth or the componants to make a "proper" booth.  So do what you can to elliminate being the poster child for "safety in model painting."

In my opinion the easiest things to do to prevent anything from happening without spending a bunch of money are;

1)Use acrylics and thin with water if possible. 

2)Always wear a dust mask at minimum.  A respirator is a much better bet.

3)I normally wear latex gloves when I do anything chemical, some chemicals require other materials.

4)Don't use anything flammable or with harmful vapors(including glue)in a small room. 

5)Don't even think about storing or having any of this near a water heater, furnace, or other ignition source.

6)Store waste in a closed container. Keeping that can full of crap is asking for it to be knocked over.

All good points except No. 2. For vapors, a dust mask can actually make it worse, but while sanding resin, it's really all you need. Vapor condensate in the fiber of the dust mask can occur, and for some vapors, reach a toxic level.

And you are right about reasonable. The problem is: how do you define reasonable? It varies from person to person. And "common sense" is an oxymoron.

But I also understand your wariness of hype and hysteria. I have become so inurred to it that when I first heard that someone had flown an aircraft into the WTC, my immediate reaction was: "Some private pilot was really stupid, and the media are doing their usual overselling." Minutes later, I found out they were not.

Wait, maybe I do know a definition for "reasonable": "not derived from what passes in the average human for thought."

Sorry to be so cynical… 

That's not cynical.  That's called healthy debate.  I don't take conversation like this personal. It's amazing how many people do.  You left my family out of it.  You might be right about the dust mask.  My only point being a dust mask in most cases is better than nothing.  Again the common sense.  Not sure what a respirator costs these days but probably not much they're pretty common in industrial applications. 

Good points from everyone.  I'd like to chime in if that's OK.

1.  Spray booths are designed the way they are for two reasons: To prevent fires and explosions, and to reduce or eliminate the potential for exposure to organic vapors.  Take your pick on order of priority.  Every organic vapor we produce in this hobby is heavier than air.  They fall.  As they fall, they concentrate in low areas, and if they are near a combustion source, they burn--indiscriminately.  If they don't burn, then they accumulate in the breathing zone of the person using them, and you're faced with the possibility of inhalation toxicity of some order of magnitude.  In order to get rid of vapors, they have to be exhausted; and to be exhausted ADEQUATELY, a certain amount of energy is required to move concentrations of vapors in a certain direction for a certain distance during a certain period of time.  For that reason alone, booths should never be haphazardly designed.  Whether you're spraying gallons, or ounces, the same physics, chemistry, and bodily metabolisms apply.  Acetone behaves like acetone whether the car being sprayed is 1:1 or 1:32.

2.  Depending on the case, wearing a dust mask is exactly like wearing nothing at all.  They don't filter out organic vapors, period.  What dust masks may do is provide a false sense of security--just like a poorly-designed and -functioning spray booth.  Go down to the local Home Depot, Lowe's, Taylor's, or another popular hardware store or safety supply store in your area, plop down about $20 or so, and take home a good half mask air-purifying respirator with organic vapor cartridges and paint prefilters, or your could opt for more and get the combination cartridges:  Organic vapor + HEPA.  Refer to the sticky posted around this painting forum somewhere, and learn to don, fit, wear, clean, and store your respirator correctly.  A great place to buy respirators and cartridges if a local store is not in reach is www.labsafety.com . 

3.  After all is said and done, common sense is still authorized, but it can't be the primary driver because it can get you in trouble.  As in all arenas where hazardous materials are used, ignorance is not bliss...

Didn't mean to get too preachy...

Gip Winecoff

Gip,

Thank you for responding to this before I could get back to it. That isn't preachy, it's peachy; and you are quite qualified to speak ex cathedra on this topic!

I agree totally. Advising someone to prevent harm to themselves, others or damage to their home is not preachy at all!

Ross, ya gotta stop using those 25¢ words, you're bankrupting me!

Triarius wrote:

...you are quite qualified to speak ex cathedra on this topic!

Ross,

Thanks for the vote of confidence, but I have a little trouble with ex cathedra proclamations.  I know of those that have made them, and to me they were/are a little(?) outside the boundaries of their authority.  One of the results of speaking ex cathedra was a small revolutionary movement called the Reformation.

And one thing I DON'T want to cause is some sort of revolution!  (At least not in a negative sense)

Gip

styrene wrote:

Triarius wrote: ...you are quite qualified to speak ex cathedra on this topic! Ross, Thanks for the vote of confidence, but I have a little trouble with ex cathedra proclamations.  I know of those that have made them, and to me they were/are a little(?) outside the boundaries of their authority.  One of the results of speaking ex cathedra was a small revolutionary movement called the Reformation. And one thing I DON'T want to cause is some sort of revolution!  (At least not in a negative sense) Gip

The "ex cathedra" was intended as humorous exaggeration—it was not intended to truly convey the mantle of ultimate authority—merely a statement that it would be wise to pay close attention to what you had to say. And I agree about those who actually do speak (or claim to speak) with ultimate authority. They are frequently (always?) mistaken to at least some degree. And I'm certainly not questioning either your integrity or your humility!  

Ross,

Thanks.  I knew what you meant.  I just thought I would throw the wrench in a slightly different direction.

Gip

Gip,

<chuckle!>

Ross 

Triarius wrote:

Gip, Thank you for responding to this before I could get back to it. That isn't preachy, it's peachy; and you are quite qualified to speak ex cathedra on this topic!

Holy smokes, or fire. Stay Safe!