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Paasche Talon

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  • Member since
    November 2005
Paasche Talon
Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, April 13, 2008 12:25 AM

Paasche has announced a new airbrush called the Talon.  Dixie and Coast will carry them.  It looks like nothing Paasche has ever produced.  It appears that Badger may have competition with their Renegades with this one as Paasche may have the upstaged them.

 

E

  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: Hayward, CA
Posted by MikeV on Sunday, April 13, 2008 1:10 AM
 H3nav wrote:

It appears that Badger may have competition with their Renegades with this one as Paasche may have the upstaged them.

 

I highly doubt that.  

Wisdom is the right use of knowledge. To know is not to be wise. Many men know a great deal, and are all the greater fools for it. There is no fool so great a fool as a knowing fool. But to know how to use knowledge is to have wisdom. " Charles Spurgeon
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Monday, April 14, 2008 7:01 PM

There may be a few who want a reasonably priced high performance brush who will buy what's available.  Don't get me wrong, as you know I am a huge Badger supporter.  But market availabilty can't be ignored when you're talking about the same class brush.

 

E

  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: Hayward, CA
Posted by MikeV on Tuesday, April 15, 2008 12:22 AM
 H3nav wrote:

There may be a few who want a reasonably priced high performance brush who will buy what's available.  Don't get me wrong, as you know I am a huge Badger supporter.  But market availabilty can't be ignored when you're talking about the same class brush.

 

E

I don't think that Paasche is in the same class as the new Badgers and looks to me like nothing more than something slightly better than Paasche has put out in a while.

The new Renegade series from Badger has a lot of new innovations patented by Badger.

We shall see. Wink [;)]

Wisdom is the right use of knowledge. To know is not to be wise. Many men know a great deal, and are all the greater fools for it. There is no fool so great a fool as a knowing fool. But to know how to use knowledge is to have wisdom. " Charles Spurgeon
  • Member since
    October 2006
Posted by Inquisitor on Tuesday, April 15, 2008 10:46 AM
someone have a link?  I'm sorta in iwata land, and don't follow these guys that much...  but I'd like to see what ppl are referring to.
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, April 15, 2008 4:30 PM
For Inquisitive minds - http://www.dixieart.com/Paasche_Talon_Airbrush.html
  • Member since
    October 2006
Posted by Inquisitor on Friday, April 18, 2008 7:55 PM

Sooooo....

It's basically an Iwata CS with a preset handle?  Hmmmm...  I'd like to see the nozzle/tip... 

 

 

  • Member since
    December 2005
  • From: Mint Hill, NC
Posted by Grifter123 on Sunday, April 20, 2008 7:09 AM

What does a preset needle stop do for you as opposed to one that isn't?

 

World's Slowest Modeler
  • Member since
    May 2005
  • From: Left forever
Posted by Bgrigg on Sunday, April 20, 2008 8:02 AM
A preset handles allows you to set the needle in a fixed position to give consistent line thicknesses. In effect, it turns a dual action into a single action airbrush.

So long folks!

  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: Hayward, CA
Posted by MikeV on Sunday, April 20, 2008 5:46 PM
 Grifter123 wrote:

What does a preset needle stop do for you as opposed to one that isn't?

 

IMHO it is nothing more than a gimmick.  

Wisdom is the right use of knowledge. To know is not to be wise. Many men know a great deal, and are all the greater fools for it. There is no fool so great a fool as a knowing fool. But to know how to use knowledge is to have wisdom. " Charles Spurgeon
  • Member since
    May 2006
  • From: So.CaL
Posted by Dr. Faust on Sunday, April 20, 2008 7:26 PM

To me it looks like Badger and Paasche are trying to compete in the A/B niche already filled by the Iwata HP series. I'm all for the competition and hope it produces a great affordable A/B.Shock [:O]  Gimmicks?

Just build it (and post pics when youre done)

  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: Hayward, CA
Posted by MikeV on Monday, April 21, 2008 1:51 PM
 Dr. Faust wrote:

To me it looks like Badger and Paasche are trying to compete in the A/B niche already filled by the Iwata HP series. I'm all for the competition and hope it produces a great affordable A/B.Shock [:O]  Gimmicks?

Badger compete with Iwata? Laugh [(-D]

It is Iwata that is in competition as they copy all things American when they design an airbrush. 

Yes, a preset handle is a gimmick IMHO and is designed to be a selling point to those too lazy to learn to educate your finger and your brain to work together.

Every time you use the airbrush things change and setting the trigger with a preset does nothing unless everything is exactly the same every time and even if it were, why would you need to take a double action airbrush and lower it's design to that of a single action?

I don't understand that thinking. 

Learn to control your trigger with your finger and you won't need worthless gimmicks like trigger preset controls.  SoapBox [soapbox]

Wisdom is the right use of knowledge. To know is not to be wise. Many men know a great deal, and are all the greater fools for it. There is no fool so great a fool as a knowing fool. But to know how to use knowledge is to have wisdom. " Charles Spurgeon
  • Member since
    May 2006
  • From: So.CaL
Posted by Dr. Faust on Monday, April 21, 2008 6:37 PM
 MikeV wrote:
 Dr. Faust wrote:

To me it looks like Badger and Paasche are trying to compete in the A/B niche already filled by the Iwata HP series. I'm all for the competition and hope it produces a great affordable A/B.Shock [:O]  Gimmicks?

Badger compete with Iwata? Laugh [(-D]

It is Iwata that is in competition as they copy all things American when they design an airbrush. 

Yes, a preset handle is a gimmick IMHO and is designed to be a selling point to those too lazy to learn to educate your finger and your brain to work together.

Every time you use the airbrush things change and setting the trigger with a preset does nothing unless everything is exactly the same every time and even if it were, why would you need to take a double action airbrush and lower it's design to that of a single action?

I don't understand that thinking. 

Learn to control your trigger with your finger and you won't need worthless gimmicks like trigger preset controls.  SoapBox [soapbox]

OK, I'm not a airbrush historian and don't Know which A/B crossed the road first. And I've seen this debate before. I'm going to leave it at that.

One thing with a pre-set posistion stop, anyone using an airbrush on a regular bassis has the know how to pretty much control all the parameters of the process. The abillity to preset mix of paint ratio, air pressure and paint flow only enhances the experience.

Thanks for your input on the subject though, I will steer clear of buying an A/b with worthless gimmicks.

Take care my friend, I wish you well.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Just build it (and post pics when youre done)

  • Member since
    October 2007
  • From: CA. all day
Posted by sizzlak on Monday, April 21, 2008 9:59 PM
Doesn't Badger have a trigger adjustment on their 150 and 100 AB. And aren't all the Renegade AB coming with preset handels.
  • Member since
    March 2003
  • From: Virginia
Posted by Wingman_kz on Monday, April 21, 2008 10:55 PM

I'm not certain about the 150 and 100 Badgers but I believe the adjustment mentioned is the same as the 360 and it is an adjustment for the amount of tension on the trigger.

Technically I think the credit for the first to come up with a come up with a preset of sorts would be Testors with their Aztec. Big Smile [:D] Not with a preset handle but some models can/could be used either single or double action.

Personally, I think it's a neat feature. The preset handle that is. Of course it doesn't alleviate the variables of distance and speed but you will get a constant flow of paint. Twitchy trigger fingers and starting and stopping won't be as much as a problem. Plus, you can still pull back on the trigger at any time or pull the needle all the way back to flush. I think it's more than a novelty.

But that's just my opinion...

Tony

            

  • Member since
    March 2003
  • From: Virginia
Posted by Wingman_kz on Monday, April 21, 2008 11:11 PM

Dixie has a pretty good price, including US shipping, may just have to give one a try. They list 4/17 as the ship date.

Tony

            

  • Member since
    October 2006
Posted by Inquisitor on Friday, April 25, 2008 12:42 AM
 MikeV wrote:
 Dr. Faust wrote:

To me it looks like Badger and Paasche are trying to compete in the A/B niche already filled by the Iwata HP series. I'm all for the competition and hope it produces a great affordable A/B.Shock [:O]  Gimmicks?

Badger compete with Iwata? Laugh [(-D]

It is Iwata that is in competition as they copy all things American when they design an airbrush. 

Yes, a preset handle is a gimmick IMHO and is designed to be a selling point to those too lazy to learn to educate your finger and your brain to work together.

Every time you use the airbrush things change and setting the trigger with a preset does nothing unless everything is exactly the same every time and even if it were, why would you need to take a double action airbrush and lower it's design to that of a single action?

I don't understand that thinking. 

Learn to control your trigger with your finger and you won't need worthless gimmicks like trigger preset controls.  SoapBox [soapbox]

 Huh?  I don't get this. 

First of all, even though these companies have been around a while, I'm not impressed with their lack of innovation and the lack of quality in their products.  I've gone through multiple badger brushes and have had them basically disintegrate from heavy usage.  Workmanship is not that great... at all.  My first iwata's as good as the day I got it.  And I use them.  Alot. 

Second, I love the preset handles.  Sure, I have lots of control.  But after i've been spraying for and hour or two, my fingers get tired and I start having a bit of a problem.  It only takes one slip up to screw up a job I've been working on and that pisses me off to no end.  So it's nice to have a little insurance policy.  Esp. when spraying ultrathin media at very low pressures.

Third, no the preset handle doesn't turn the brush into a single action brush.  It makes it so you don't pull back the trigger as far... creates a stop.  that's it. 

BTW- if it were just a cheap gimmick... hmmm.  they've used these on their high end brushes for years-  CM-B, CM-SB, CM-C/C+-  before introducing them as a stock feature on their other brushes.  I think they are quite useful when you are spraying something like inks, moving the handle back millimeters, if that, to get effects.   

Mike is absolutely right about the dynamic nature of ABing though.  you don't have to have a present handle.  You gotta learn how to control the brush as it presents to the artist/modeler/painter/etc.  It is very dynamic, and things change from batch to batch of paint, day to day with all sorts of variables.   

Still mikeV, I don't know what you are talking about when it comes to iwata copying americans.  I've yet to see a brush designed and currently marketed by an american company that is built like the iwata or its multitude of clones out there.  Its not that they are bad, but from day one I could get better and more consistent results with any of my iwatas, hands down, than any paasche or badger product that I have owned or used. 

I admit the sotar is nice, but I haven't had the chance to try them out personally.  If anyone wants to send/loan me one to review and compare with my micron and other iwatas, i'd be up for it! 

Same goes for the and the paasche turbo, which supposedly is one of the finest spraying brushes ever invented.  Had the chance to pick one up for really cheap, but didn't really need it so I passed. 

BTW-  this is not a bag on these other brushes; there are uses for them, and they can give some great results too.    

 

 

 

 

 

 

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Southern California, USA
Posted by ABARNE on Friday, April 25, 2008 1:50 PM
 Inquisitor wrote:

First of all, even though these companies have been around a while, I'm not impressed with their lack of innovation and the lack of quality in their products.  I've gone through multiple badger brushes and have had them basically disintegrate from heavy usage.  Workmanship is not that great... at all.  My first iwata's as good as the day I got it.  And I use them.  Alot. 

I've never heard of Badger's being poorly made and my own Badger seems to be well machined and constructed.  Could you provide some clarification about your experience with Badgers?  Mostly I'd be curious as to which Badger airbrush models you have owned?  Which parts disintegrated?  And how Badger's level workmanship contributed to the airbrushes' failures? 

Andy

  • Member since
    October 2006
Posted by Inquisitor on Friday, April 25, 2008 9:28 PM
 ABARNE wrote:
 Inquisitor wrote:

First of all, even though these companies have been around a while, I'm not impressed with their lack of innovation and the lack of quality in their products.  I've gone through multiple badger brushes and have had them basically disintegrate from heavy usage.  Workmanship is not that great... at all.  My first iwata's as good as the day I got it.  And I use them.  Alot. 

I've never heard of Badger's being poorly made and my own Badger seems to be well machined and constructed.  Could you provide some clarification about your experience with Badgers?  Mostly I'd be curious as to which Badger airbrush models you have owned?  Which parts disintegrated?  And how Badger's level workmanship contributed to the airbrushes' failures? 

Andy

Well, just to clarify: I shouldn't say that every badger product that I've used has been crappy, nor did I mean to imply that was the case. 

edit:  I'm also not talking about these new generation of brushes.  I just looked at the renegade series... interesting.  I'm talking about the stuff they've sold, marketed, etc.

When i speak of quality, I'm talking about the overall performance of the brush, not just that it is made well.  If we are just talking about blasting out paint, that's one thing.  If we are talking about painting fine lines, performance at incredibly low pressures, that's another.  I am referring to the latter mostly.   

There is also durability.  Of any airbrush make i've used, I've had more problems with badgers.  It could just be my luck.  The one catastrophic failure I remember off the top of my head was on a 100lg, the airstem broke off.  I was stunned.  I couldn't believe it, actually.  On that and other brushes, I'd have the coatings constantly chip and come off with regular use.  I mean big chuncks and not from solvent based paints or anything.  I didn't bother getting it serviced b/c I was sick of their products not doing what I wanted. 

The other brushes I've used on a regular basis besides their gravity feeds were the 175 series.  Good solid construction- sort of like a tank of the airbrush world.  A good brush, but convinced me that I really don't like bottom feeders for much more than being a paint blaster.  No precision to do the detail work I wanted to do.  The anthem series... hmmmm.  I think least looked them over, but don't remember using one for any length of time.  Good solid simple brush, but didn't do anything different for me than other brushes than I've had.  My paasche H's pretty much do everything that a 250/350 could do.  That pretty much covers their line, unless its the sotar.  I haven't used, but know someone who has, and they love it.  When I've spoken with ppl who have used both (including some people at Bearair, when then used to carry iwata stuff...), they said the sotar was a fine brush, but that person still preferred their CM-SB. 

I had a friend that used olympos brushes regularly in his porcelain restoration business.  These are pretty much comparible to iwatas, so I thought I'd give them (Iwatas/similar) a try.  I've never gone back. 

As for innovation, I've not really seen much in the way of change with these brushes, apart from the 360, which is a pretty cool idea.  Re: iwatas, I love the MAC valves on the brushes that I have them on, the design of the iwata, solid construction, ease of maintenance of ANY part of the brush.  As I noted, I appreciate the preset handles when I'm spraying water thin media through my brushes.  Never had any chips/dings or anything.  I take care of my stuff, but even with solid use-  no damaged nozzles, bent needles or anything else, even with my mircon.  No significant wear from using any solvent through them.  Sprays like a dream, esp. when doing tight hairlines for weathering as much now as when I got them 4+ years ago.   

I only find it funny that ppl will buy multiple lower end brushes that just don't perform like an iwata or comparible, citing that iwatas are just too expensive, etc.  However, I could recommend 1-2 brushes to anyone that are good enough to do just about anything, would last for YEARS and give superb results. 

I didn't mention media b/c this is something that anyone using ABs just has to learn how control their media and how it works dynamically with the AB. 

Lastly, I'm sorry, but I just don't see people who use AB regularly using paasche/badger brushes (or designs similar to theirs), apart from Tshirt artists.  Though ppl don't AB regularly, outside the art world, that much anymore, I still have yet to see the throngs that go "man, I can't wait until the new badger comes out." or "sheesh, I don't know why I spent the money on the iwatas/etc.  Badger is the way to go.  Fine for the occasional hobbyist, but not the draw their in performance for MOST professionals.  There are exceptions, and there are ppl I've seen who do some good work with these brushes, even professionally, but I wouldn't say that they are 'leading the pack'. 

Also, I've never met anyone who's hated their iwata.  Met plenty of ppl who are frustrated with other brushes b/c they can't get them to do what they want.   Sorry if you don't like my opinion, but that's all I'm offering here.  I AB at least a couple times a week; and usually do multiple projects in a setting.  iwatas have made the experience pleasurable and give me consistent perfomance.   

Lastly, if anyone (including ppl from badger/paasche) would like me to review a brush, pls LMK.  I'm in the process (have been for some time) of doing an AB review site, more than just "cool, I love this brush" type of thing, but more like you'd see on DPreview when they review cameras.  Comparison on set performance criteria (i.e. doing certain tests, pressures, etc.) and then talking about applications, what different brushes are good for, etc.  The key thing in my mind is that its not just this brush or that brush, but what does any brush do for you as the hobbyist/artist/etc and how can it help you to achieve your creative goals. 

I'm not meaning to be some sort of fanboy or a jerk or anything.  Just my two cents.  

edit:  so, I've just been looking at the badger renegade series.  A couple observations.  First, interesting to see that they are moving over to an overall design that is similar to iwata et al.  Anyone tried one of these, who use iwatas?  i'd love to review one; perhaps i should write them. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  • Member since
    October 2006
Posted by Inquisitor on Saturday, April 26, 2008 12:28 PM

here's some thoughts by ppl who are using the talon:

http://www.airbrushtech.info/AIRBRUSH/forum/showthread.php?t=8739&page=2

I thought it interesting that many features that are standard on the iwatas are what ppl are noting... ability to remove needle cap, screw in nozzles/tip (which I don't know why ppl don't like...)

BTW- this brush doesn't compare with the revolutions, but is more in line with the eclipses (in fact, the CS). 

 

 

 

 

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, April 26, 2008 8:18 PM

Thanks Inquisitor.  The two reviews on the Talon that I've seen have been very positive.  I know that MikeV will be here soon to slap us silly, but I just might pick one of these up next week my GWB money.......

 

E

  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: Hayward, CA
Posted by MikeV on Monday, April 28, 2008 3:27 AM
 Inquisitor wrote:

Still mikeV, I don't know what you are talking about when it comes to iwata copying americans. 

Take a look at the Eclipse HP-BCS for example and tell me that is not a direct copy of Thayer & Chandler's Vega 2000s and Omni 3000s that came out big for T-shirt artists years back.

They can't even think up their own names for airbrushes without stealing them from us.  

 

They make a fine airbrush but I see no advantage to them over any other brand and the reason the "big names" use them is because they are paid to endorse them.

You said only people doing Tshirts use Badgers? Have you heard of Jason Livery?

He uses the Anthem 155 and Hybrid 3155 for all his work:

http://twistedteesairbrush.com/Art_Gallery/Art_Gallery.html 

I owned an HP-CS and I sold it because I thought my Badger 100LG had a smoother trigger but to each his own. I am not going to argue "the best airbrush" as it does not exist.   

Wisdom is the right use of knowledge. To know is not to be wise. Many men know a great deal, and are all the greater fools for it. There is no fool so great a fool as a knowing fool. But to know how to use knowledge is to have wisdom. " Charles Spurgeon
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