Maybe this could make the forum a little more clearer

Ninetalis

Medicman71
Mine would be a tad simpler actually to be honest
But I'm happy that I'm not the only one who would consider this to be a bit better.

Regards Ninetalis

It would be different. That does not automatically mean it would be better. I've been members of this forum and ones organized along the lines of the two Medicman linked to. They both have their pros and cons. Some like this style better, others don't. 'Better' becomes a subjective matter of opinion.

Medicman71
Mine would be a tad simpler actually to be honest
But I'm happy that I'm not the only one who would consider this to be a bit better.

Regards Ninetalis

I'm with ya Ninetails!!

Look at sites like ARCair and Zone-Five.net. That's what he's wanting to do. It's not that difficult to navigate and I prefer it over the setup here. Oh and FSM can get sponsor threads as well as these two do.

ARCair (They have a Auto and Armor Forums as well)

http://www.arcair.com/

And Zone-Five

http://zone-five.net/index.php

It's been a long time since anyone improved chess, or Avalon Hill's Waterloo. 

Also Hans, maybe it sounds stupid to you, doesn't mean it is stupid.

Just so you know, I wasn't calling eother you or your idea stupid.. I was just using an acronymn, in this case, "KISS" as a gentle reminder to not over-complicate things, regardless of what project  you're taking on... Besides.... The last format change took months to die down.. It got to the point that several well-established members "popped smoke" and left the forums permanently and some pretty huffy exchanges between between members...

Personally speaking, I was ok with the format change, and I really don't remember anything about the previous format, but I understood the frustration they felt, because I too am not fond of "change".. If things work, I don't try to fix 'em...

The first thing I'd ask myself, were I an adminstrator here, would be: "Will such a change result in more active members signing up and will it increase the traffic?", and "Will this new format make the forums easier to follow?"

If the answer to either question is "No", then I don't do it...

But speaking as an administrator on a US Military and Veteran's website forum, adding all those sub-forums is PITA to the admins and moderators..

For instance, in one forum, it's titled "Weapons" but the Sub-forums are:Rifles-Military  From Black Powder to Smokeless,then it's 1900-1945, 1946 -1990- 1991-present- Future Weapons-Civilian- etc..

Then it goes to Pistols the same way Black powder, revolvers, auto-loaders, Military/Civilian yadda, yadda, yadda.. What we ended up with was a moderator who had to check 20 subforums just to cover the rifles and pistols... This is not to mention the Shoulder-fired Anti Tank, and their various subforums, and then it was also including sub-forums for every kind of weapon ever made that an Infantryman would have to drag into battle.. It was a mess...  One moderator wasn't able to keep up with the traffic there, much less the other forums he or she was responsible for.. 

SO...,

As Scotty said to Admiral Kirk (in an otherwise forgetable Star Trek movie-scene, after he'd disabled the USS Excelsior so that it couldn't pursue the Enterprise out of spacedock) : "The more they over-do the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain."...

In other words,

KISS

bondoman

Hans von Hammer:

. Nobody reads them in their current location, and can't even see them if the don't know about filtering...

 

What's filtering, seriously.....?

Without going into detail (because I can't), it's basically the settings you have in the forums as how far back posts show up on your screen in any particular hooch.  The default setting is six months, I believe,so topics and posts that're older than six months won't show up unless you tell it to... You have to click on the "Sorting and Filtering" link and what I do is change it to "Show  All"...

I can't follow at all anymore... but that's mainly because I don't really care anymore...
Main reason why I don't really care anymore is because,
most people don't want any change because it's 'to hard' to adapt to something new,
how small that even is and they actually forget after 2weeks that it has been different at some point...

Anyway, I just thought this would be more usefull because,
in the aircraft section where I'm active most of the time there are barely any build reports
(somebody that is writing a report and posts pic about his build and the progress of it) to be found,
When there are any, there most of time allready gone to page 2 by the end of the day...

Also, there are so many questions that sometimes don't have anything to do with modelling at all,
Just aircraft, or allready asked like a bazillion times....
not that it bothers me that much but you know...would be more fun and as mentioned by someone else before, I'm pretty sure a lot of nice topic's are lost in the void like this...

Maybe the people of finescale can keep the old fashioned way of things right now,
but with the option to filter some things, so everybody could get what he want...
Like you post now, but you can select where it would fit best, and people have the option to use filters if they would like to...

Sure this last thing sounds complicated and all, but it's really easy...
Also Hans, maybe it sounds stupid to you, doesn't mean it is stupid.


Regards Ninetalis.

EDIT
Bondoman, filtering is like when you put different topic's into different specialised sections
Like you put put tanks in the tanks section and the aircraft into aircraft sections etc.
My idea would be to put tanks builds     with   tank builds section
                                           tank questions with   tank questions section

Hans von Hammer

. Nobody reads them in their current location, and can't even see them if the don't know about filtering...

Hans von Hammer

THAT is a good idea, Hans. I am sure you've offered that as a suggestion to the mods?

 

Scroll down the Suggestions and Feedback page a bit or click here:..

/forums/t/141386.aspx

Ahh yes. I believe I remember reading that thread. It was a good idea then and is a good one now...

bbrowniii

Hans von Hammer:

And I still say that the Forum Rules and Guideline should be sticked at the top of EACH forum hooch.. Nobody reads them in their current location, and can't even see them if the don't know about filtering... 

 

THAT is a good idea, Hans. I am sure you've offered that as a suggestion to the mods?

Scroll down the Suggestions and Feedback page a bit or click here:..

/forums/t/141386.aspx

Hans von Hammer

And I still say that the Forum Rules and Guideline should be sticked at the top of EACH forum hooch.. Nobody reads them in their current location, and can't even see them if the don't know about filtering... 

THAT is a good idea, Hans. I am sure you've offered that as a suggestion to the mods?

KISS-Rule Applies..

Keep It Simple, Stupid...

The biggest problem that I see with the forums is not the way they're laid out, but rather with the members that aren't very good at titling their threads... I HATE thread-titles that are simply " Question" or "Need Help" types... 

If folks would just make their titles CLEAR AND CONCISE, there would be less confusion...

And I still say that the Forum Rules and Guideline should be sticked at the top of EACH forum hooch.. Nobody reads them in their current location, and can't even see them if the don't know about filtering...

Too complicated.

Too large.

There would be too much time wasted.

I don't want any more "changes" to the forum. The last one was a shock to the system, and took a LOONG time getting used to. There are other forums formatted in this style and I don't use them because I find it clumsy and cumbersome.

I appreciate your support of the forum, but IMHO, I think your proposal just over-complicates things unnecessarily.

I like having the broad subject categories.  The Search function works well here and I've never found it difficult to find whatever I might be looking for within a category.

I also think a simpler forum arrangement is more user-friendly, especially for newbees. 

I frequent other model ship forums that use a similar system to your proposal and find them unnecessarily complicated and difficult to navigate.

Mark

oddmanrush

 for instance, the aircraft forum into several categories. (WWI, WWII, Cold War, Modern, Civilian, etc) It doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure out that certain categories are going to get more play than others, leaving the less popular categories feeling rather stagnant and uninteresting. At least if there is one aircraft section or armor section or whatever, it is constantly changing, new posts will be noticed, and everything has a fair chance to be looked at. 

I like the forum the way it is at the moment. Its a small yet flourishing community. If you expand the forum, and make it slightly more complex by adding subcategories I think that detracts from the community feel. You'll have fewer people posting on certain topics, and less people viewing models because they have to search for a particular category or overlook categories they don't find interesting. 

I think a general format, like this forum has, also makes it feel fresh and updated. Let me explain...I visit other forums on occasion that break down, for instance, the aircraft forum into several categories. (WWI, WWII, Cold War, Modern, Civilian, etc) It doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure out that certain categories are going to get more play than others, leaving the less popular categories feeling rather stagnant and uninteresting. At least if there is one aircraft section or armor section or whatever, it is constantly changing, new posts will be noticed, and everything has a fair chance to be looked at. 

Just saying...

 I get, and understand what you're saying, but I'd have to lean toward agreeing with most of the replies here. I was on another forum that was dedicated strictly to aircraft......awesome in it's own right! However, it was broken down into so many sub-cats, that it was just too much work to go through. It had kind of a wide open, deserted feel to it. I always found myself coming right back here, one click on "aircraft", and I can see everything that's going on.

One mans improvement is another mans hindrance. It's taken me long enough to get used to and kind of learn my way around the "new and improved" forums that were dumped on us with narry a thought.

Electric Blues

Seems to me it's a complicated way to fix something that isn't broken.

Regards Ninetalis.

Seems to me it's a complicated way to fix something that isn't broken.

bondoman

Used to be this forum was the opposite- everything was layed out on the home page.

I think there are too many sub catties already. I like to look for new stuff mostly, so the more upfront the better for me.

I think the best solution would be that there are sub catogories,
But also a page where you can watch all the posts on the entire forum posted in chronological way,
(I mean where you can watch the new stuff like you said)

Everybody happy!

Regards Ninetalis.

Negative, 9T

Used to be this forum was the opposite- everything was layed out on the home page.

I think there are too many sub catties already. I like to look for new stuff mostly, so the more upfront the better for me.

Phil_H

I don't wish to sound overly negative, but while it's possible to categorise and sub-categorise everything, it's another to get people to use what is deemed to be the appropriate category for their post. (The old "leading a horse to water" adage comes into play here)

Look at the Community Assistance (aka Forum Help) forum and see what's posted there. We know its purpose is to ask questions regarding forum usage, like how to use "conversations" or how to post photographs. However, its title also simply sounds like a place where people can ask other members for assistance and so it is flooded with modelling related questions - painting, aircraft, decals, cars, ships, spare parts - they're all sitting there in one big jumble. Now these posts come up just like any other post in the "recent topics" list, so they do get answered, but they really should be in the appropriate category shouldn't they?

My sentiments exactly, Phil. To me, this is the main problem with the forum. Don't get me wrong, it's great, but there are areas where there could be more order. Too many sub-catagories, and you get something like what doogsatx mentioned. Actually, google can be fairly good at tracing back to fsm postings, but it's not interior here. Not enough categorization and you have what you mentioned above. perhaps it just comes down to discipline from the poster? I may be missing it, but there is not an adequate "search engine" for past posts.

For instance, I was trying to find a reference to a post on "white washing" aircraft made a few weeks back. I couldn't search it, so I just had to wade back, eventually finding it. Who knows how many excellent posts are "lost in the void" back several years?

bbrowniii

It can definately be a challenge and it would be nice if there was some way to streamline things a little bit....

Okay, to any other modellers reading this
Please READ this topic before asking or commenting on anything we have allready discussed
It is a lot of work to explain everything 5times just because some people don't try to read but just post away,
Keep in mind, I AM FROM BELGUIM and I don't talk english as my native langauge so this isn't as easy for me to explain/defend myself as you guys

If you think this is a good thing, then post something SHORT, just to show the moderators that you are supporting this idea, so that if they will watch this topic (and they will) that maybe, something should be done

YES, we don't want a billion subtopics but they won't do that, so can we get over that?
we have allready pointed that out in our previous comments...

Regards Ninetalis.

I do like the idea of splitting up the topics a little bit. Like for instance in the airplane category, having a WIP, completed,  "research," question/answer, etc. Not saying to get rid of the page where all posts show up, but mostly to know what category a post will be before opening it. And it's true that people tend to post things in the wrong place sometimes, but I have seen on other forums where the moderator simply moves the thread to the right category. That might be helpful here too. And as far as when you complete a WIP thread, if you wanted too, I don't see why you couldn't post pictures on the WIP thread you have been doing, and a separate thread in the completed section. Some people on here already do that with their group builds.

Oh yeah, and bring back the odds and ends forum!

Just my

Ninetalis

Yeah, I remember getting onto this forum (before i was a member) and i was really like 'omg they have a lot of fun GB's', but then you have a 100 pages of irreletive stuff, i could not even get to page 5 without getting overly bored and annoyed by all the stuff that I didn't even wanted to watch any further...

Regards Ninetalis

I agree. One of the challenges of following (or participating) in a GB is to be able to follow the builds without getting distracted by all the comments and other 'stuff'. It can definately be a challenge and it would be nice if there was some way to streamline things a little bit....

bbrowniii

if I start a build log (in the 'BUILDS' forum - subforum technically), I'd carry that through to completion, right? On the other hand, if I've got a completed build that I never posted anything on, it would go in 'COMPLETED BUILDS'? Is that right?

Jep, you've got it! that's exactly what i mean!

bbrowniii

edifficulties in the way GBs are currently done is that the WIPs often get co-mingled with a whole host ot random comments, so it can be difficult to follow.

Hmmmm, I'm going to have to try to thing about the GB idea of yours. There might be something to it....

Yeah, I remember getting onto this forum (before i was a member) and i was really like 'omg they have a lot of fun GB's', but then you have a 100 pages of irrelative stuff, i could not even get to page 5 without getting overly bored and annoyed by all the stuff that I didn't even wanted to watch any further...

Regards Ninetalis

Ninetalis

bbrowniii:

#1 If I start construction of an aircraft with a thread in the 'BUILDS' section, do I just end it and post finished pics in the "COMPLETED BUILDS' section - so anyone following along has to go to two different threads to see the whole process.

 

No, that wrong, When you have started one in builds, you just finish it in that same topic, and it stays in there,
that's what i mean with 'these are builds that don't have a "BUILD" topic on this forum'
(so if you have a build-topic on an other forum but not here (on finescale)
, THEN you put it in "COMPLETED BUILDS"

bbrowniii:

#2 GROUP BUILDS don't belong as a subcategory. There are too many that include subjects from different genres (see the 'Blitz in the West GB'). Additionally, I don't want to have to search out a bunch of subforums to follow all the GBs I might be interested in.

 

I don't know if you got me wrong here to but i mean, you have a list of Group builds,
Let's just say

       - Blitz in the west that is a SUB, when you open it, you get topics,
                               something like this

             GROUP BUILDS  - Blitz in the west -> - Brownie's Dewoitine D. 520
                                                                                  - Ninetalis BF 109 E
                                             - B-17 Group Build -> - Swanny his B-17
                                                                                     - Ninetalis Builds a B-17
                                                                                     - Brownie wants a memphis belle

bbrowniii:

Don't get me wrong, I like the streamlined, tiered approach. I just think it would need some tweaking.

 

Hey that's okay, when you propose an idea, it is normal to get questions or commentairy,
I'll just keep on trying to explain my idea.

Regards Ninetalis

Hey Ninetalis

Thanks for the quick reply. It may just be that I'm not 'getting' you, but I'm not sure I understand your reply.

So, back to the 'BUILDS' vs 'COMPLETED BUILDS':

As I understand your reply, if I start a build log (in the 'BUILDS' forum - subforum technically), I'd carry that through to completion, right? On the other hand, if I've got a completed build that I never posted anything on, it would go in 'COMPLETED BUILDS'? Is that right?

That seems like it would be confusing to me. Of course, that is not to say that the current system does not have its own layers of confusion, so confusion by itself may not disqualify an idea. I'm just trying to conceptualize how this would look.

Now, as to the GROUP BUILDS. You are right, I did misunderstand what your vision for the thread was. Now that I see, a little more clearly, what you have in mind, let me ask another question/comment:

Might it be a little cumbersome if every GROUP BUILD had a subthread for each participant? I mean, if I want to keep track of a GB, I'd end up clicking on bunched of different threads.

Having said that, I do see some value in the way that would 'streamline' things. One of the difficulties in the way GBs are currently done is that the WIPs often get co-mingled with a whole host ot random comments, so it can be difficult to follow. The one time that problem was 'minimized' was when we did the Marder Madness build and each member simply 'replied' to their initial WIP post, so all of the build was in one place. Wasn't a perfect solution, but it did compartmentalize things nicely.

Hmmmm, I'm going to have to try to thing about the GB idea of yours. There might be something to it....

I don't wish to sound overly negative, but while it's possible to categorise and sub-categorise everything, it's another to get people to use what is deemed to be the appropriate category for their post. (The old "leading a horse to water" adage comes into play here)

Look at the Community Assistance (aka Forum Help) forum and see what's posted there. We know its purpose is to ask questions regarding forum usage, like how to use "conversations" or how to post photographs. However, its title also simply sounds like a place where people can ask other members for assistance and so it is flooded with modelling related questions - painting, aircraft, decals, cars, ships, spare parts - they're all sitting there in one big jumble. Now these posts come up just like any other post in the "recent topics" list, so they do get answered, but they really should be in the appropriate category shouldn't they?