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Pictures in FSM? Yeah, right

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  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: The flat lands of the Southeast
Pictures in FSM? Yeah, right
Posted by styrene on Friday, February 6, 2004 12:50 PM
In another topic, a couple of our guys got their pictures published in FSM, and I think that's great. But it reminded me of a problem that many of us are having with FSM, and I just wanted to vent, rant, stew and steam for a moment or so:

FSM has a bad record or habit of not publishing most of the pictures that they make at shows, conventions, etc., or even providing some sort of fair photographic representation. This has been addressed to them numerous times without (in my mind at least) adequate resolution. Past rationale by FSM staff members have included statements to the effect that many of the pics will be used as stock photos, and drawn from as necessary to supplement future magazine articles, histories, etc. So far, I haven't seen any, and I've been a subscriber since about 1988/1990 or so.

Assuming that about 15% of the pictures are unpublishable due to photographic or reproducing error, and another 15% aren't suitable for one reason or another, and a pathetic 1% is published in the magazine, that still leaves a whopping 69% that goes---where? If memory serves me correctly, we don't normally see pictures from the IPMS Nationals (held in August) until the following February edition of FSM. In that issue, the Nats pictures are included along with the regular Reader Gallery section. Only about 10 or so pictures are published of the Nats event. Interestingly, FSM probably distributes somewhere in the neighborhood of 100 or so "We want to photograph your model" flyers to contestant entrants. It's truly sad to see all those participants lining up to have their pictures made knowing that the probability of seeing them in FSM is slim to none. Sad [:(]

In GSM 2004, 22 (!) pictures are published of AMPS 2003 where over 450 kits were entered. While this is a little more representative, consider that the Nats normally have about 1500 entries, and we only get to see 10-15 pictures.

In addition, also in GSM 2004, Mastercon XII, a show attended by "world class modelers" (FSM, p.73) the show only garnered a grand total of six pictures. This is completely unsatisfactory--especially for a "special issue".

The argument could be made that fewer and fewer contest entrants are submitting their models to be photographed. I think one reason is that more and more people are becoming frustrated because they are not seeing any reason to have their entries photographed; why do it if the kit is never going to be published, or the show adequtely represented in the #1 national modeling publication that is supposed to be supporting and representing our hobby?

What is becoming signifcant, is that I'm not the only one who feels this way. Many of the modelers I associate with through the local clubs here, as well as modelers I meet at regional and national events are starting to feel the same way, and most are now refusing to fill out the FSM form and get in line...and are beginning to encourage others to do the same. There are some other things happening as well in shows as a sign of disapproval, that I would rather not discuss in this post. Sadly, FSM, the readership, and ultimately the hobby stands to suffer.

I'm curious.....Do any of you--my forum family--have feelings about this one way or the other?

I would also like to get some input from a couple FSM staffers, if possible...Anybody out there?

Please understand I'm not angry or bitter...just frustrated, and it would seem from people I've talked to it's spreading.

Thanks for letting me vent.

Gip Winecoff

1882: "God is dead"--F. Nietzsche

1900: "Nietzsche is dead"--God

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Massachusetts
Posted by ajlafleche on Friday, February 6, 2004 12:57 PM
At Noreastcon 2003, Paul Boyer took pics of several of my figures, none made it. Big deal. Would it have been cool to be featured? Damn straight! Do I hope to get in next time? Yep. Will I be disppointed if I don't? NOpe. One of my buddies got his (the B-17) gunner in the mag and another his F-117 on the website. Good for for them. These publications are not the ofificial publications of Noreastcon, AMPS, TamiyaCon, etc. Editors are charged with making decisions to help sell magazines. To paraphrase Reese, "That's what they do."

Remember, if the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy.

  • Member since
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Posted by M1abramsRules on Friday, February 6, 2004 1:54 PM
what I'd like to see FSM do, is to take a whole bunch of those photos and publish them in 2 magazines (like GSM, but not neccasarily with all the introduction articles to each show. just pics with the models description, maybe what show it came from printed with the description) but substitute them for the 2 months that they don't publish the mag (June and August)
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Friday, February 6, 2004 3:30 PM
Like a kind of reader special?
  • Member since
    November 2005
Fight the power! LOL
Posted by Anonymous on Friday, February 6, 2004 3:39 PM
:::Bol moves over in his bus seat to let Styrene sit down:::

Welcome, friend. Name's Jimi.

http://www.finescale.com/fsm/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12988

It seems as though the masses are growing...

  • Member since
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  • From: USA
Posted by mark956 on Friday, February 6, 2004 4:08 PM
I would like to see a article on the website. I have seen a lot of great looking models here.
mark956
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Friday, February 6, 2004 8:27 PM
I agree with some of the sentiments expressed here in that I think it would be good of FSM to publish, say, an annual photo special at the end of the show season, something like that.
Bruce
  • Member since
    March 2003
  • From: Rain USA, Vancouver WA
Posted by tigerman on Friday, February 6, 2004 9:13 PM
I agree with Chris (MIabramsRules). I'm sure many of your subscribers would love to get their hands on a special issue such as that. I know I'm one who loves and wishes the readers gallery were larger.

   http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y269/wing_nut_5o/PANZERJAGERGB.jpg

 Eric 

  • Member since
    March 2003
  • From: Newport News VA
Posted by Buddho on Friday, February 6, 2004 10:08 PM
I have sent photos twice to FSM and was turned down both times. I figured that my photos were lacking qualities that FSM was looking for. But I've seen inferior pictures that did make the gallery and wondered why I didn't.

I like Chris' idea about publishing the photos in 2 special edition magazines in June and August.

Regards, Dan

  • Member since
    June 2003
  • From: Rowland Heights, California
Posted by Duke Maddog on Friday, February 6, 2004 11:27 PM
I completely agree here. I would love to be published in the FSM, but I know that it will never happen. I know this because I read their requirements for submitting photos, and they are financially (poor camera equipment) and technically (digicam photos not up to FSM Standards) beyond me. Even if I could find someone who could take photos that would be acceptable, I still believe that it won't happen because I build OOB. They have not published any photos that I know of from 40-yr-old guys still building OOB. I cannot afford AM, and PE parts, since we're bankrupt, and I'm still on disability. Besides, I enjoy building models OOB more than I do trying to add all the extras to my kits, but that is just me. Because of this though, my models aren't the same quality that FSM expects from guys my age, since I don't modify them. Every photo I've seen published from guys my age (+/- 10 years) are models that have P/E, A//M and/or scratchbuilding all over them. The only photos of OOB models that I've seen published are those built by Teens and younger. I may be wrong, but that is what I have noticed in the three years I've been getting the Mag. Disapprove [V]

Personally I think it is outstanding to see young kids and teens published; I'm definitely not begrudging them! I feel great seeing their work, since it shows a new generation is keeping this great Hobby alive! Seeing some of the great talent and skill that these kids put into their work is inspiring and motivating. Approve [^]

And finally, like someone else mentioned, the Reader's Gallery is TOO SMALL!! Angry [:(!] I would love to see the Reader's Gallery doubled and even tripled in size! I feel such a great letdown when I look through three or four pages and there's the end! It leaves me wanting to see so much more! For me, it's like when you're dying of thirst, and they only give you a 2-oz. cup of water and no more! Even GSM is too short for me! I'd even be willing to pay extra for FSM if that what it would take for more pics in the Reader's Gallery since it would give me more satisfation!

At least I was fortunate to be published somewhere: Doug Chaltry's "On the Way" website has photos of my BRDM 1 w/ Konkurs ATGW, and by BMP 1 'Ost' Approve [^]Big Smile [:D]

I also submitted photos of my Iraqi T-55 Enigma to the online contest cosponsored by ACE and someone else. I don't think I'll win since I've seen the competition, but I thought to myself, "Hey, nothing ventured, nothing gained!, and it could still happen anyway!" Tongue [:P] Wink [;)]

That felt good to see my work published on the "On the Way!" website! Big Smile [:D]Cool [8D] Maybe I'll take my WIP Thread of my T-55 Enigma and turn it into a kit review and submit that to "On the Way!" Wink [;)]Cool [8D]
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, February 7, 2004 5:15 AM
Gip, I don't have the same frusterations as you (since I'm still fresh in the game and have never been photographed, or even finished a model yet), however I think I understand where you are coming from. I look at it more along the lines of I want to see everyone elses work. I bought GSM to see hundreds of photos of everyone's work, because to me, you guys make the models of my dreams!!! If that makes any sense....it's kind of like christmas for me (or maybe that first Playboy!!!) Where my eyes are just wide with excitement, trying to take in all of the detail and effort everyone puts into their models, and I get so many ideas!!! I still keep picking it up, and I know most of 'em by site now. Do I want more.....HELL YEAH!!!! I'm with you Gip, because I want to see more of our friends' work!!!!!
  • Member since
    June 2003
  • From: Cavite, Philippines
Posted by allan on Saturday, February 7, 2004 10:33 AM
Id have to agree with Heath. I look forward to new issues of FSM to see other people's works, and to have a peek at new products too.

This might be a little off-topic, but what would you guys think of a "Forum Gallery" for once? That is, a gallery of model pics posted on this site. Theres just do many great models shown here.

No bucks, no Buck Rogers

  • Member since
    September 2003
  • From: New Zealand
Posted by nicholma on Saturday, February 7, 2004 2:36 PM
OK I'm going to take the contrary view just to ensure the discussion remains lively!

I don't agree, I don't want to see any increase in pictures from the various shows, that in my opinion is what GSM is for. The reader's gallery in FSM is great and like you all I enjoy seeing what everyone else is doing but for me FSM is all about seeing how a master modeller or expert does something extraordinary, what method or technique is used to create that special weathering effect, how a run-of-the-mill kit can be turned into something special. Photos from model shows are just the result they don't tell me how and what etc.

What is an acceptable level of show reporting, if only 1% of photos taken are published then is 2%, 5% or 25% an acceptable level? There is and always will be a debate about the mix of coverage within FSM (or any generic modelling magazine, late last year International Scale Modeller asked its readership the same thing), not enough sci-fi, or figures, or cars, or now show coverage. If something increases then some other genre has to decline. Sci-fi, figures etc already is poorly represented so armour and aircraft will have to suffer ......

GSM is for show coverage not FSM. Perhaps GSM could be published twice a year or even quarterly, Michaelvk's idea of a special edition is another good one but my advice to the editorial staff at FSM is not to change the mix of FSM!
Kia ora, Mark "Time flies like the wind, fruit flies like bananas"
  • Member since
    March 2003
  • From: Exit 7a NJ Turnpike
Posted by RAF120 on Saturday, February 7, 2004 6:17 PM
I had dreams of being published in FSM but since I found FSM forum I post my own work here and I can get feed back from a great bunch of guys and gals which you can't get from a magazine.My 2 cents [2c]
Trevor Where am I going and why am I in this handbasket?
  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Niagara Falls NY
Posted by Butz on Saturday, February 7, 2004 6:48 PM
Hey all,
Last year at BUFFCON, Mr Boyer took a few pix of my a/c that I had entered. When the issue came out, you guessed it, none of my a/c were in there.
And you know what..!! I did not loose any sleep over itTongue [:P]Wink [;)]. If my models would have made it, cool and if not o'well maybe next time. Maybe its just not my timeTongue [:P]Smile [:)]
Anywho I love(see I said it) posting my pix here(FSM forum) b/c I get to share them w/ my modelling buds and budettes and vise versa.
Here I can get advise, tips, ,problem solving,hints and even ideas from everybody. Where as in the rag, nothing can be said in around about way unless you post here.
Since I have joined the FSM forum, I have learned, advanced in my building and the like. Its like one BIG family hereWink [;)].
I do agree w/ what has been said here, and it would be nice if FSM put out an extra rag just w/ the builds. Nothing like "The Best Of" or "Great Planes of WWII" but every day builds from people like us!!
Hopefully to somebody this makes sense because I typed this quicker than I thought it outBanged Head [banghead]. I know go sit in box for 5 minutes and then I go free.
Flaps up, Mike

  If you would listen to everybody about the inaccuracies, most of the kits on your shelf would not have been built Too Close For Guns, Switching To Finger

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, February 7, 2004 7:04 PM
It may be a bit off topic, but I noticed in the latest issue the first letter in ScaleTalk, this poor gentleman asking for advice on how to get some BMF off of his canopy he had used for masking.....and the editors tell him to wait until the April issue when they will do an article on masking canopies!!! Could you imagine waiting months to get an answer on how to remove a mask??!! I'm sorry friend, that BMF is never coming off by the time you learn your answer!!! I was shocked that the FSM editors didn't at least point him to the Forum where he could get the answer in a timely manner!!!
  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Niagara Falls NY
Posted by Butz on Saturday, February 7, 2004 7:14 PM
Hey kik36,
You've got to be kidding right!! I think I saw his post and a few of our friends answered him.
Or am I thinking of another builder?
Flaps up,. Mike

  If you would listen to everybody about the inaccuracies, most of the kits on your shelf would not have been built Too Close For Guns, Switching To Finger

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, February 7, 2004 8:28 PM
I sure hope it's the same guy Mike!!! Otherwise he may be in trouble!! Check it out on page 6, very first letter. His name is Tod Gobledale from Mulgrave, Victoria, Australia.
  • Member since
    January 2003
  • From: Everywhere
Posted by stinger on Saturday, February 7, 2004 9:13 PM
Gip

I am not surprised at all at the low percentage of pictures that actually make it to the magazine. I'll bet that Paul Boyer, Lawrence Hansen, et al, wish that their publication were three times thicker in order to present our world to the public. Unfortunately, they are bound by the financial limitations of producing a magazine (albeit the best one out there in this country) that has a relatively low readership compared to other enthusiast mags. I'm not necessarily defending them here, but just trying to look at it objectively.
As for the content of the pictures that are published, I feel that they generally show a good cross section of talent and usage of materials at hand, from scratchbuilding to OOB's. At first I was going to criticize their persistent mentioning of brand names used by modelers in the gallery, but then I realized that we do it here in the forum also.
My biggest criticism of the magazine is that they devote several pages showing a model conversion without showing the actual techniques involved in achieving it. For instance, the latest issue shows many photos of the NF104 in various states of modification, but they only show it after the mod's are finished. Like certain details "blended into the airframe with epoxy putty". They show it after it is all sanded nice and pretty, but they don't show it before that step, how the epoxy putty looked right after, or even how, it was applied. (And by the way, did anybody really get the thing about modeling water in that issue?) They assume that all their readers are experienced with these methods and materials, but they forget that many readers are new to all of this.And that brings up another thing.........
How about a few articles on the basics for the newbies. Like the difference between various glues, types of paints, etc.? We see these questions all the time here, and I also see how quickly and kindly members respond to those querys, but there are many modelers out there who only have money for models and not the good fortune of an internet access, or at least to the degree of it that we so enjoy.

Sorry for ranting and raving here, guys and gals. I guess the more I thought about it, the more I had to say, for what it's worth.

QUOTE: Originally posted by allan
This might be a little off-topic, but what would you guys think of a "Forum Gallery" for once? That is, a gallery of model pics posted on this site. Theres just do many great models shown here.



Allan

I think a forum picture gallery would be perfect!
I feel that the forum has already formed itself into just such a thing, although in not quite such a formal way. Perhaps a new subject heading provided by the webmaster (is DVoss back yet?) would provide just such a place.

Many of us post pictures of our work in progress, and the finished work itself. Despite some complaints about images posted here, I personally look forward to seeing them. I feel that the comraderie here is warm and genuinely honest, and frankly, the information and exposure to the real world of our hobby is better represented here than any FSM issue I have ever read. Long live the Forum!

stinger

May an Angel be your wingman, and the Sun be always at your six

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Harrisburg, PA
Posted by Lufbery on Sunday, February 8, 2004 12:30 AM
Stinger,

FSM has routinely run articles for newbies. For instance, they ran a whole series of articles called the "Finishing School" for several issues back in the late '80s or early '90s. I have two issues that cover applying decals, one from 1991 and one from 1999. Also, they seem to run an article every year on how to use an airbrush.

The real question is how often the magazine should feature instructions for beginners who, be definition, don't have a stack of old FSMs to dig through. For my money, I think the mix of advanced techniques and beginners' techniques is pretty well done.

Just some thoughts,

-Drew

Build what you like; like what you build.

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, February 8, 2004 2:00 PM
maybe those issues of only pic's for fsm subscribers? :)
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, February 8, 2004 8:26 PM
Is it luck, skill or a gimmick that gets you into a magazine? As one of the pathetic 1% who has made it into FSM magazine, I think it may be a mix of all three. Having been a modeler for over 35 years, 30 of which as an active competitor in numerous local and regional shows, I have had my share of joys and frustrations as to how my work has fared in the arena of open competition. I have often wondered why someone else's work had won the show, been photographed and applauded, and I walked away with nothing. I once even threw my second-place trophy in the garbage at the show in disgust. I honestly thought I should have won.
Over the years, I've learned a few things. One, it's not always the best model that wins. Usually (and hopefully) it is, but not always. Maybe the winning model just resonated somehow with a judge or two. Maybe their father served on that ship, in that plane, fought in that battle. Or maybe there was some gimmick; live smoke on the diorama, flickering lights in the spacecraft, spinning propellers on the plane, that wooed the judges favor? Sure, it was a good model, but so was mine, what put his over the top, when mine was just as good, at least in my opinion.
I consider myself to be a skilled modeler, as do most of us consider ourselves. We take pride in our workmanship and strive to produce the best looking model we possibly can. That's what this hobby is all about. So if we think our skill as a modeler is just as good as the guy who does win the show or get published in the magazine, why isn't our stuff getting the recognition we think it deserves? As pathetic as it may be, this is when I resort to gimmickry. And I think it is what got me into GSM 2003, on my very first attempt at getting published. What was the gimmick? It was the kitty cat on my Ambush at Bohl diorama. Don't believe me? Then why did he get his own photo? It caught the photographer's eye, it was something subtle, yet out of place, that catches the eye and registers a humorous thought in the mind of the beholder. This is something I now put in every diorama I make. If this sounds stupid, pick up Sheperd Paine's book How to build Dioramas and read the section on humorous ideas. What I'm saying is that little things like this is what help get you noticed, help win the shows and help get you published. Then there is just plain old LUCK. Just my My 2 cents [2c] worth.
  • Member since
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  • From: Philippines
Posted by Dwight Ta-ala on Sunday, February 8, 2004 8:38 PM
Good point Leopold.

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, February 8, 2004 10:04 PM
Leopold.

Great post. IMO & IME every winning models has had some form of gimmick or eye-catcher that got them noticed.

Over here often the overall impact of the finished item is often more important than having high grade techniques. To be honest I was shocked at the level of finished models when I came over here, the guys here seem to be on a completely different level than I have seen overseas. And I am sure that they are on a par if not above the top IPMS guys.
Seen a few of the published Dio's and Kits that were published in real life at the HS and even bought one once.

One competition where I entered we had to fill in the entry form, one block was to give a kinda justification for the entry and why it was build the way it was, what did we try to achieve, represent, etc. makes you think about your entry. BTW, it was an open category anything was ok.

After the show the affiliated magazine did a cover of the winning Kits and had a small pic of EVERY kit entered into the contest with builders name.

Just my 2 cents of though.
  • Member since
    January 2003
  • From: Everywhere
Posted by stinger on Monday, February 9, 2004 9:21 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by unnamedplayer

maybe those issues of only pic's for fsm subscribers? :)


unnamed does not go unnoticed Wink [;)]

Long live the forum

May an Angel be your wingman, and the Sun be always at your six

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Green Bay, WI USA
Posted by echolmberg on Tuesday, February 10, 2004 1:20 PM
Just a question to throw out to everyone: Is this why we build models? Do we do it only so we can puff our chest out and say "Yep. That's my model being featured in the magazine. Mine's in there and other's are not."? Is that why we build models and take them to competitions for "world class modelers"? Personally I love the mix of models which are shown in FSM. I like the ones that are a bit rough around the edges and I love the ones which are flawless to a fault. It shows me where I've been, where I am and, God willing, what I might possibly achieve. I've been in my fair share of local hobby shop contests (open to everyone, not just IPMS members) and I've "won" a bunch and I've "lost" a bunch. I like not getting the first place ribbon just as much as when I do get it because it bruises my ego and it makes me remember that I got into the hobby for fun. I've had a few pictures take on my planes and you know what? Those were never published either. Just be happy that someone thought enough of your work to do so and don't be upset, mad, frustrated, or any other emotion when you don't see your work in print. They didn't need to take a picture but they did. Be happy. It's an extra little bonus that you may not have been expecting. Now let's get back to remembering why we do our hobby in the first place.

I'll get off my soapbox now.

Eric

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, February 10, 2004 7:12 PM
I have to agree what was said earlier in this thread...

I sent in pictures myself a few times and heard nothing back. Will I loose sleep over it, nope!

I build because I enjoy it. I post pics of my work here at the forums, and let the rest of my friends see it.

That is good enough for me.
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, February 10, 2004 11:55 PM
Erock, I agree with you, I'm sure at one point in time that it was everyone's dream to one day have their pic published for everyone to see!! But man, with the internet, and this wonderful supportive forum, do we really need our photos in the mag?
  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Pominville, NY
Posted by BlackWolf3945 on Thursday, February 12, 2004 12:42 PM
I think if anyone here has a problem with FSM and the way it's handled/published then I say why don't you step into their shoes and see if you can do better.

The fact that the overwhelming majority of the photos taken by FSM at shows do not get into the magazine is par for the course. Any good photographer will tell you that it can sometimes take a few dozen shots to get one great photo. I dunno what their selection process is, but you can bet that there's some rhyme or reason to it, not the least of which is space considerations in the rag.

Also, each ish is planned months ahead of time which partly accounts for the delays of photo spreads from shows. And, speaking personally, I kinda like the delay. All the shows that I go to are still fresh in my mind a month or two after they've taken place. For me, it's nice to have a visual reminder half a year later to get the BS sessions goin' with the Saturday Night Mafia... Wink [;)]

As to the question "is this why we build models?", for some, yes, it is. Just because YOU don't care if your models get published in a rag or not doesn't mean that everyone else has to feel that way.

I think it'd be groovy to get published. Hell, I was invited to do an article a couple years back and was just too damn lazy to follow up on it; and they stopped calling after a few months. Am I bummed? Slightly, because if I'd jumped on it I woulda most likely had a few things published by now. Am I losing sleep over it? Not any more... Wink [;)]Tongue [:P]

Give these folks a break, they do a damn fine job with the rag.


Fade to Black...
  • Member since
    January 2003
  • From: Philippines
Posted by noel_carpio on Friday, February 13, 2004 1:44 AM
With my pics or not, I think FSM still remains to be an informative magazine for this hobby. Yes, there are some issues that I consider not as exciting as the others but that would be subjective. If you are a very experienced modeler, FSM's purpose for you might not be the same as someone who is new to the hobby. So I think whether there is some "gray" definition on how pictures are posted on either FSM or GSM, let's still be glad that for now there still is an informative and picture heavy magazine like FSM. I run a printing press and to tell you the truth, loading a magazine as thick as FSM ain't easy. There is a lot of planning and research done for this. Inserting pictures, I bet, is the least of their (the publisher's) problems.

'Just my opinion...

Noel
Noel Carpio Chapter Contact IPMS Manila IPMS USA # 42543 www.geocities.com/ipms_manila
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