Off-Topic Discussion area removed

I think it's time we retire this topic. I'm moving it to "Suggestions and Feedback" and locking it. I've read all the posts here; as always, I'm impressed at how articulate the members of this forum are. You've made your points constructively and with spirit--that's what makes these forums so fascinating. Now, I'll try to answer some of the questions various members posed:

The Off-Topic forum was removed because of the volume and increasingly negative tone of posts on largely or completely extraneous subjects. The bad feelings and negative tone were spilling over to other topic areas, and we wanted to stop it before it got out of control. We could have tried a piecemeal approach--removing problem threads, chastising via forum mail members who made inappropriate posts, "steering" discussions back on (or closer to) topic. Those methods would be time-consuming, and since OT was not part of the site's core purpose anyway, we concluded the swiftest, surest way to take care of the trouble was to remove it's breeding ground. It wasn't punishment. We weren't singling anybody out for punitive action. It was a course correction before the ship drifted too far.

QUOTE: Originally posted by upnorth I suppose since we can still post about the wherabouts of missing members, there's no problem posting congradulations to milestones when members hit them.

No problem at all. Birth announcements are OK, too.

QUOTE: Originally posted by renarts There is no reason that Odds & Ends cannot accomplish the more personal or side posts that will allow a familiarity with other members with out causing anyone to feel that they have to defend a personal position, faith, ideology. Much of this negativity is rather churlish and melodramatic in my opinion. But if it means a choice between quitting and a peaceful more friendly forum.....adeiu guys. I hope you find satisfaction elsewhere. I am happy to alter or curtail the sociological debates and move on. Besides my interest in this site was modeling and figures. It was why I signed up.

Thank you, renarts, well said.

QUOTE: Originally posted by ausf Is an absurd post about PE problems considered frivolous? If a thread degrades into some jokes about anti-mime-mines does it get removed?.... Is the Cretin gone for good?

No, on all counts! Banter is part of an online discussion group, especially as a particular thread winds up. It's rarely a problem; usually people lose interest and move on.

QUOTE: Originally posted by M1abramsRules Your saying that this is the OT, except for politics and religion, and heated debates, and totally senseless posts??? does that mean we have free rein in this forum as long as we don't touch any of those hot button issues?

Add "posts soliciting stuff for sale" to your list, and the answer is: Yes, pretty much. We didn't really abolish Off-Topics as much as we cleaned house and changed its name, hopefully, to something that is less encouraging of way-off-topic posts. I'm sure we'll still get 'em, but hopefully fewer of them. Frankly, if it's something you want to say, and you think other members of the community will benefit from hearing it, post it.

J-Hulk is on-target with this assumption:

QUOTE: Originally posted by J-Hulk Perhaps the "Odds and Ends" forum will incorporate the best of what the OT forum offered, without the harsh bits. No matter what it becomes, I strongly urge any member thinking about cancelling his or her account because of all this to deeply reconsider. I don't want to see anyone on either side of this thing leave the forums.

QUOTE: Originally posted by lilBEAR The off topic forum shouldn't have been counted towards our stars in the first place!!!

Agreed, but that was not a factor in the decision. We have the capability to shut off the post counter in a particular topic area.

QUOTE: Originally posted by echolmberg I want to get info on models then I'll come to the FSM web site. If I want to discuss issues on guns then maybe I'll check out the NRA site. If I want info on Harley Davidsons (does anyone remember how that degenerated into some bad mud slinging?) then I'll browse for sights about motorcycles. I don't think it's about free speech or censorship. I think it's about producing a site about models. Hence the "M" part in FSM.

Exactly. We know that people who come here to talk about modeling are sometimes going to talk about non-modeling subjects, too. What we don't want is people starting to come here just to talk about non-modeling stuff.

I must say that I'm really disappointed to see the demise of the O.T. Forum. It was the one place were you could really get to know your fellow modelers. Birth annoucements were made, joys and concerns were shared, and for the most part the political debates, altough heated at times, were an incredible insight into what others across this planet thought and felt. Lord knows I didn't always agree with some of the things posted but I'm grateful that I live in a country were people are (or were) free to express their thoughts and ideas.
It's sad to see that we lost so many great members. I'm gonna stick around though.

As we used to say in the Army. "The beatings will continue until morale improves."

hmm, i really enjoyed the off-topic discussions, mostly the games i guess they were always a lot of fun especially word association and neverending story, pity you took them away. as you can see there is quite a bit of controversy

I am saddened by the loss of o.t. too. I can see the point of barring religous/ political threads, but the games? I guess it's the wants of the few or the one outweigh the wants of the many. Like has been mentioned, if ya don't agree, don't read it. We should be able to get along even with diffrent opinions on things. I really liked ot, it helped me to get to know people beyond just building. I can respect otheres even if I don't agree with them.
Lee

I kinda thought a month too maybe.......

In case anyone missed it, here's a clarification regarding games.

QUOTE: Originally posted by Lawrence Hansen Forum games: ID this aircraft/tank/helicopter/dirigible, military history, etc. = OK Neverending stories, word association games, choices, jeopardy, Family Feud, and even the dialog on the bridge of the starship Enterprise will be pulled pronto.

My two cents I added afterwards was that perhaps if something like Jeopardy was made into something more specific like "Modeling Jeopardy" or "Military History Jeopardy" that should be okay. Would be challenging, but I'm sure it could be done.

Thread size (ie. number of pages) isn't really an issue. I wouldn't consider closing any threads until they reached beyond 200 pages. Although a thread that long becomes pointless to some degree -- I mean who's going to read all the way through it. So for games or long ongoing discussions, it might be good to break it off and continue it in a new thread at some point -- perhaps by month?

Wow. I've been away for several days, and the world turns on its head! I am saddened by the deletion of the OT forum, and even more so with members like Shermie, Sean and Woody leaving. Though, I can sympathize with what Woody said about deleting the OT forum was like burning books and pictures filled with memories. I used to visit the first post/topic i ever had in the Introductions Forum, and i'm reminded that i share this space with such fine individuals... I think Woody was one of the first people to welcome me here, but i can't remember any more, because the old posts there have been deleted.

I didn't always agree with everything that was said in the OT forum... but then if i didn't like it, I just didn't read it. If i had an opinion about something, i didn't have to go share it with the world. And when I did, it was usually expressed as "In My Honest Opinion". I think there are other people in the forums who think the same way.

I have made many fine friendships in FSM. I mean, where else on the net would you find a guy who would airmail a complete stranger a missing canopy (thanks again, Liam!), or a set of replacement decals?!? It is because of this that i choose to stick it out here with you guys. Man... How are we going to explain this to courtney when she goes back to school?!?
-Shrikes

P.S. Oh, and for the guys in charge, you guys moderate the forum and i will respect your decisions, but next time, find out what our thoughts are (i.e. poll us, because we're the ones that use the forums) in what goes on in what some of us concider our "home"page... because this site is mine.

When i logged on, I would always go to the Aircraft, GMD and then OT. I could be having a bad day and after reading some of the OT posts, I would leave with a smile on my face and feeling much better. Some topics I stayed away from and others I would read from page one to the end. Many of the members let out their true feelings and we got to know them better. We saw them for what they actually were. I would occasionally shoot an arrow, in fun, at another member and would in turn get several shot back at me, again all in fun. That did not mean we were blood enemies but had different opinions. We left the forum still good friends.

I have a rule at my house. If you want to fight, go outside. I have seen many old members call for restraint and to step in as a ref. They have taken control of a topic and steared it back on course. That way we were helping to control and monitor for any gross violation of the rules. They were self governing and were doing a pretty good job at it.

I say keep the OT, but if the printed rules are broken, then lock it out or step in. The word games were fun in the begining but got drawn out too long. In that case close it out and lock it.

Just my

choises ot yes or no
never ending story -- he went to

word association -- friend pal

just say there ok , put thegames back on

I see more good, constructive commentary here in the last day. I'm still up against a couple of important deadlines (and Paul Boyer keeps giving me Workbench Reviews to proofread!), so I won't be able to respond to some of the very legitimate questions members have raised until later today.

Interesting what can happen in a week when you're away!

I think a number of good points have been made by all sides but I suspect most (all?) of us joined with the primary reason to discuss modelling related issues and to further our capabilities in the hobby we enjoy so much. To me in this Forum the OT was just a minor thing for a bit of light relief. I for one have no problem in adhering to new rules for the OT replacement because my primary focus still remains the ability to discuss modelling related questions, comments, concerns etc. I have no doubt that the odds and ends will still provide a measure of light relief . I have difficulty in understanding why someone would leave because the OT was redefined and I would therefore question their commitment to the original ideals of the foum however its personnel choice.

Rules change, that's life. Debate about change is always healthy and should never be discouraged. Its us the users that eventually decide on the fate of the Foum by our decisions to stay or go and each of us will make that decision based on our own perceptions, circumstances etc. I support the Administrators in their changes and look forward to a just a healthy and vibrant Forum as we had before.

Erush,

With due respect, the same paragraph could still be interpreted by the 37,000 members in relatively different ways. I I believe that's why this happened. As we are all different anyway. That's is why I am requesting Lawrence and Dave for clarifications (or to break it down to do's and don't if possible) to limit the possibilities of members misinterpreting the said guidelines. Or is it too much to ask?

If one member posts something that he felt is within the "guidelines" but the same post is deleted because the moderators thought otherwise, the member could be offended and we will be back to square one.

In the same manner word games are no longer allowed but what about picture games, number games, guess who's this WWII character is game, tell me what this kit is and it's yours game?

Yes we can start a new but I believe that we need a clearer set of guidelines to start with this time or we will all be going around in circles.

Amen, Erush. Very well said.

I think this is going to improve the atmosphere of the forum. Yes, I brought up some of the problems that I saw and my intent wasn't to get rid of the Off Topics forum as much as to get folks to thinking about what they're saying on here.

Lawrence mentioned that everyone should take a "refresher" look at the Forum Guidlines and I agree. It mentions that you should not say something here that you wouldn't say to someones face. There are 37,000 faces you're speaking to on this board. Some of the comments were not kind to others. I have my views as much as the next guy, but I don't air them all on my modeling board.

A few mentioned that this is going to change the forum...and I agree. I think it's going to change back to what it was a while back when there was no annimosity being generated amongst all the friendships that had grown here. In other words it's going to change back to the "old" FSM board we used to have that everyone enjoyed so much.

And if you read the Forum Guidlines closely you'll see that they are not trying to shut down the fun and even the silly posts we used to have. Read the last guidline...."Frivolous and pointless jokes are welcome. Healthy, humorous debate and banter is actively encouraged!" It is a guidline but it doesn't say to not have fun.

I think the FSM staff did the right thing because if you have guidlines, they need to be adhered to. Someone will bend them or break them at some time or another and not neccesarily on purpose. Lets help out the staff by getting back to what we came here for, models, fun and friendship.

Eric

Per Dan, Brian and Joe, I think it's time to hang tough and keep FSM as the vibrant, active force in the modelling community that it has been. We gain nothing by leaving, and everything by staying and see how we can work constructively to keep the standard of excellence here high.

QUOTE: Originally posted by wayne baker Is this beginning to sound like the old OT. Maybe it needs to be locked and deleted.

Fade to Black...

I echo J Hulk and Fighting Joe's sentiments in that I hope that members who are thinking of leaving to please reconsider. We have lost enough good people on both sides of this argument and need not lose more. We have a great site here...we have great forums and most of all...great members. Lets stick together on this and keep the future very bright for FSM.

Regards, Dan

Is this beginning to sound like the old OT. Maybe it needs to be locked and deleted.

I'm just going to add something solely for the purpose of playing devil's advocate. Remember, I'm jut throwing this out there. I have no opinion on this in any way. But the internet is a big thing. I'm sure if someone wanted to discuss gun control or unwed parents or treatment of war prisoners or anything other topic they could easily find a forum somewhere other than the Fine Scale Modeler web site. I've taken part in all those chat threads as well and I know that many of the discussions really got a bit hot-n-heavy. It was sad to see them take a turn for the worse but it also lifted my heart when I saw some people disagree and yet were still able to remain jovial and cordial. I thought that was gone from our society and it was good to see that it's still out there. I really enjoyed the OT forum so at this point I'm a bit sad and also a bit glad that it's gone. Maybe it's time to get back to the point of the web site and that is to foster the world of model building.

But getting back to my point, if I want to get info on models then I'll come to the FSM web site. If I want to discuss issues on guns then maybe I'll check out the NRA site. If I want info on Harley Davidsons (does anyone remember how that degenerated into some bad mud slinging?) then I'll browse for sights about motorcycles. I don't think it's about free speech or censorship. I think it's about producing a site about models. Hence the "M" part in FSM.

I agree with what everyone above had to say regarding how it was nice to interact outside the world of models. Me? I'm a creature of habit. I fear change. But lets see where this new road takes us. Let's see how it works before we bash it.

I'd also like to add that four or five select members does not make a great web site. What was the number of contributors to this site? Something like 37,000? We ALL make it a great place to be. I think it lessens the value of the contributions to all the others if we deify only a few.

Eric

Excuse me, but after I entered my last post I realized I misspoke on something. I
referred to the handfull of members who have recently left, but I what I meant to say in place of this was those who would have left had the OT forum had stayed.
Sorry about the confusion.

QUOTE: Even if all of the above mentioned members did leave (& I do regret that), that would still leave about 37,000 of us who still like--or at least tolerate--the OT forum enough to stay

You know, that's exactly what's got me in an itch about this. I really hate the fact that some members have decided to leave, most notably ShermanFreak a.k.a. Robert. This gentleman was the first to welecome me to this forum, and was a willing help with anything I had to ask that he knew of! This is the biggest thing I regret. Don't get me wrong, I do not wish to belittle anyone else who wishes to leave, but hey, if you want to do it, go right ahead, it's really up to you to do the best for yourself. However, those decisions should not have such a direct, drastic, and quick impact on this great site. And a great site and community it was. The fact that all of us are expressing such great emotions over posted text should be testament to that. However, as of the quote above, there ARE thousands of members here, and I feel it an injustice to remove such a strong community tool that the O.T. forum was. There were many of us who used that forum on a regular basis, and it makes me very happy to see some of the higher post-count people verbalize against this decision. The O.T. forum was a wonderful thing, a place where one could go and take a break from the ordinary. I come here because of my interest in modeling, but I stay because of the people I enjoy interacting and being, on some vague virtual level, friends with. With my offline friends, I do not speak of the same thing constantly, nor do I relate everything in my speech to be within context of that one thing. It is absurd to think that any kind of strong community can be built on the premises that speech has to be within one and the same context all the time. That is what the O.T. forum was for; those of us who chose to share things about our selves/lives OUTSIDE of the sprectrum of modelling could go there. Go there I did, and a lot of fun I had. To a degree, I can understand the actions that were taken. And to an even greater degree I fully applaud and bow to the administrative team and the FSM staff for being so fully involved with this community. There are not too many places where you will find such a thing. However, I feel that you've taken a very basic human element and removed it from this site. The reason that the O.T. forum was such a great thing is because it allowed those of us who wished it to bond. Regardless of what could have been said or who pi$$3d who off, at the end, one undeniable fact was that we still had something in common; the love of models. This common bond is what allowed people to speak so freely, with or without fear of repercussion. All it would have taken was a little bit of thought to realize that we still have something in common, and we could still get along on that level. The forum discussions, and more notably, the games, were an amazing thing. I've not been to any other forum where I enjoyed forum games so much, simply because these games and discussions were reflective of the types of people who frequent this site. Now, I feel that I will not be able to connect on as much of a personal level as I did before, and that trully is my loss.

To admin: Gentlemen, I enjoy this forum tremendously & believe that on the whole you guys do a great job. BUT I really think that you dropped the ball on this matter of eliminating the OT forum. What you have done here is to tell the
members (a) that a tiny minority can dictate to the majority (b) that you think that
too many of us members are too immature to be trusted with expressing our opinions freely, and (c) that a few hurt feelings are more important than freedom of speech. What would happen to our country if the rest of our society was dominated by concerns over avoiding frivolous or offensive speech? What would our media be like. our universities, our Congress? We've got to be bigger than our own personal sensitivities & realize that the right to self-expression far outweighs the pain of a few offended sensibilities. Even if all of the above mentioned members did leave (& I do regret that), that would still leave about 37,000 of us who still like--or at least tolerate--the OT forum
enough to stay. Do the math, gentlemen! I'll still visit this forum on a regular
basis because I joined it in the first place mainly for the modeling. But it will definitely be a less interesting place without the OT forum. Adult human beings ought to be able to talk about anything they please in this land of the free. Hopefully the discussion will always stay civilized, but even if we do have a verbal dust up from time to time & some bruised egos result.... well, that's life. In my opinion burning the OT soap boxes is certainly no way to deal with this issue. Thanks for listening.

i posted in the other thread how sad i am. i read here two or more other members have either left or are considering leaving. friendship is something i cherish, i do not have many outside these forums as friends, not because i dont associate with people its just i dont choose to have them as friends. now i am losing the opportunity to check in with these friends everyday. my heart is heavy with sadness that it has come down to something like this.

i urge all that are considering leaving to reconsider. if nothing else to sit back and let the dust settle. the only constant in life is change. change on the forums was unavoidable. please allow yourself the chance to see how this change will affect the overall before taking the steps you are thinking about.

joe

I am very disappointed.
I rarely got involved in the hot button discussions but the ones I was involved in didn't seem bad enought to warrant this, I thought we managed to discuss things like adults.

I rarely was able to talk to other members on a messenger service so it was the only way I could get to know the person behind the name and builds.

Now at least 4 valued and respected members are gone and they will be sorely missed. How many more will leave?

Was the option of Moderators even considered?

Your court, your rules. But it sure is going to be more dull. I will continue to help anyone I can, but there is not a lot of personality in "What shade of O.D. should I use?" I'd rather the search worked better.

To Lawrence and all the other staff members of FSM,

I feel like I'm (and I KNOW I am) repeating what has already been said but I wanted to say this anyway. Too often everyone hears about the bad and not enough about the good. That goes for if you hear it on the news or if you're a shop owner and you're dealing with a complaining customer. What I wanted to do was put in my two cents and let you know how much I appreciate and LOVE the FSM magazine and web site. I think you guys have put together a wonderful thing. I think everything you've done so far has been very well thought out and I know you do things for a reason and you don't do something unless great thought has been put into it. I will miss the Off Topic forum because there were many thought-provoking topics. Plus, it also revealed a lot about the character and personalities of the members. However, I know that your decision to remove it was not a decision made lightly and without great considerations. I trust your decisions and I am sure it will only take this site to a higher level.

Thank you again for your dedication, your thoughts, and maybe the thing that means the most to me, your interaction and caring nature. You are all wise beyond your years.

Eric

Well, I too am disappointed about the change, but saw it coming. Yah, I get a little sick of the religous and political debates, but found them interesting nonetheless. It was a way of learning about others feelings and thoughts. Like I said, I just don't want to talk shop, because I will get bored real fast. I will lose no sleep over the dropping of the games, which I didn't care about anyway.

And I, for one, appreciate the fact that you all, as a group, at Kalmbach take the time to not just read but to also respond.
This is something that is missing too much in this day and age. For lack of a better description, we'll call it "customer support".
Thanks Lawrence for a great site and a great magazine.

Randie