My COMMENTS ABOUT GUNS

Ladies and gentlemen,

Everyone knows why this one was put to bed.

Tim

I agree with the man above. This thread is as good as gone.

dirkpitt77

2nd that. We just earned this privilege back. No need to blow it so soon.

Wonder why not this thread?

2nd that. We just earned this privilege back. No need to blow it so soon.

Another thought: Lets keep politics out of the FSM ready room, where they are not allowed.

Another thought.

In order to show their support for more strict gun laws how about those of us that are protected by "security" with guns (ie celebrities, politicians, etc) publicly announce that they will insist their "security"  immediately turn in their guns. Also at their homes and places of business place a sign that reads something like "This is a Gun Free Zone".

In crimes committed with a gun what percentage of those was the criminal convicted the actual legal registered owner of the gun.

Anyone know where one could go to get these stats or do they not even keep them?

whoo Fly-n-hi!!

P mitch

I have to ask this as I'm the only non-American in this discussion and I know before I ask this it not a fair question but - How many children have to be murdered before as a country you say "Enough", or is it OK as long as they aren't your children?

P mitch

I have to ask this as I'm the only non-American in this discussion and I know before I ask this it not a fair question but - How many children have to be murdered before as a country you say "Enough", or is it OK as long as they aren't your children?

Honestly, this is an overly emotional and ridiculous question.  And unchecked emotions really are the problem with this whole debate.

Let's try to look at this objectively, ok?  According the the US Department of Justice, approximately 10,000 to 12,000 Americans are murdered by firearms every year.  The population of the US is approximately 340,000,000.  That means that .00003% of the population are murdered by firearms every year.  And they estimate that two thirds of those murders are criminals killing other criminals, i.e. drug deals gone bad or gang shoot outs.  So now about .00001% of the innocent civilian population are murdered every year.  Yeah, that number is gonna have to be quite a bit higher before I say "enough."

Now, according to the National Safety Council, about 16,000 people die every year in the US from falling down!  Yes, that's right!  Now, we can all agree that it would be ludicrous for you to say something like "How many people have to fall before as a country you say enough?"  Yet more people die as a result of falling that being murdered by firearms.  Where's your outcry over all of the senseless deaths from falling?

There are an estimated 230,000,000 firearms in the US and 200,000,000 automobiles, yet 55,000 people die every year in the US in automobiles.  Should we say "enough" to cars?

I could go on and on listing other items that kill more people that firearms but it would take me all day to post it and you all day to read it.  

According to a study by Dr. Gary Kleck, a criminologist at the University of Florida in 1997, Guns prevent an estimated 2.5 million crimes a year, or 6,849 every day. Often the gun is never fired and no blood (including the criminal’s) is shed.

In my research I came across this Oct 5th, 2003 article from The Guardian titled "Gun crime spreads 'like a cancer' across Britain":  "Even banning guns does not slow down criminals. In the U.K., where private ownership of firearms is practically forbidden, criminals have and use guns regularly, and even build their own. One enterprising fellow converted 170 starter pistols to functioning firearms and sold them to gangs. Hundreds of such underground gun factories have been established, contributing to a 35% jump in gun violence."  Thought you might like that one.  So much for that gun free British utopia.

I live in Arizona, which is a very gun friendly state.  We have always had open carry and we've had concealed carry for a long time yet we have very few firearms related murders (if you exclude the illegal alien drug trade and human trafficking, i.e. criminals killing other criminals).  Yet when we legislated conceal carry here all the anti-gunners warned us that every argument and bar spat would turn into the shoot out at the OK Corral.  It didn't happen here or in any other state that has concealed carry.  Why do you suppose that is?  The overwhelmingly vast majority of shootings are justified shooting of some criminal with intent to do harm.

Look, the bottom line is that we live in a world that has some pretty messed up people.  There's not really anything we can do to prevent that.  All we can do is be prepared to deal with these people when they rear their ugly heads.  Many people I know choose to carry their pistols...and you'd never know it.  They don't flash them, they don't talk about it and they don't go around looking to be vigilantes.  They just want to be prepared to defend themselves if God forbid they ever need to.  To me this is wise.  In reality there's only one person who is truly going to look after you...and that's you!  If you chose to walk around like a sheep and hope that someone else will protect you that's your right to do so but you really have no one to blame but yourself if you chose to be defenseless.  

I like what Thomas Jefferson said..."I would rather have complete liberty, and accept the fact that some people will abuse that liberty, then to not have liberty at all."  Very well said TJ!

P mitch

I have to ask this as I'm the only non-American in this discussion and I know before I ask this it not a fair question but - How many children have to be murdered before as a country you say "Enough", or is it OK as long as they aren't your children?

 that doesnt have to do with guns at all. Many children are stabbed, drowned, beaten, struck by cars/killed in accidents....there are just as many adults killed by guns, if not more.

I have to ask this as I'm the only non-American in this discussion and I know before I ask this it not a fair question but - How many children have to be murdered before as a country you say "Enough", or is it OK as long as they aren't your children?

tankerbuilder

     The firearm is a TOOL and like many can and does get ABUSED and MISUSED .  There ,that's my true view .    Tanker-builder

Hi :

I appreciate your input on this .Here in the U.S.A. we are,for the most part , LAW ABIDING folks .There are the percentage of unseen and seen " nut-cases " that ruin life for everyone .The second amendment was written ,I suppose in the spirit of the times .Flegling new country against the might of the known monarchies of that time .

   As we all know the U.K. is one of the few that could and did smell the roses. We had our differences and solved them .To bad it couldn't have been done over a pint in the pub ! We here ARE very emotional about the" SECOND AMENDMENT " although probably most have NEVER read it .

These emotions can and sometimes do stir  up a firestorm of words .

    I have used firearms , in the service of my country . I have also been involved in two incidents where my family ,or myself , were definitely in peril . These still bother me . If they didn't I wouldn't be of right mind , correct ?

     The firearm is a TOOL and like many can and does get ABUSED and MISUSED .  There ,that's my true view .    Tanker-builder

As long as it's kept fairly civil it should be left alone.

This thread may make it to 9 am Monday but I doubt it.

good post Fly-n-hi. I would also like to add that the 2nd Amendment also allows us to protect ourselves from others and not just the government. It is estimated that 3% of the population are sociopaths. Most never harm anyone, but  nutjobs like the shooters in Aurora or Newton can cause all sorts of trouble.  Not to mention inner-city crime!

Should a situation arise that requires self defense, we cannot rely on police who measure response time in minutes.  Many incidences are over in seconds and by the time police arrive you could very well be dead.

P mitch

 I understand your constitution and its second rule to be able to carry guns, let me say this from an English point of view, WE ARE NOT GOING TO INVADE AGAIN SO YOUR SAFE OK.

 

The 2nd Amendment (that's what we call it) was included in the Bill of Rights at the behest of the anti-federalists because our founders understood that the greatest threads to liberty and freedom most often come from a people's own government.  The 2nd Amendment is the only amendment that guarantees that our government will obey the rest of the Constitution.  They obey it or we make them obey it...in theory.

We don't need the 2nd Amendment to protect hunting, sport shooting or to protect us from some European country (no offense but our military would annihilate all of  yours put together and you know it).  People who say the 2nd Amendment protects this stuff are completely uneducated.  Everything about our Constitution suggests that the framers didn't trust big centralized government...and for good reasons.  Sadly, the world's history is full of example of governments turing on their own people.  To suggest that the 2nd Amendment was for something other that our protection is rediculous and flat out wrong.

Do you think the founders were sitting in the Constitutional Convention saying: "Governments all over the world throughout history have proven they they tend to abuse their powers.  Let's make sure that we limit their powers in this Constitution.  Let's break up the power into three seperate branches that check and balance that power.  Let's throw in a Bill of Rights that forbids certain actions the Federal Government can commit.  Oh, and let's put in an amendment to protect hunting." 

Seriously?

I guess you would have to live here in the USA to even come close to understanding this topic and the passions that arise from this subject. The fundamental right to keep and bear arms isn't so much as to defend ourselves from an outside power, that is what our armed forces are for, but as to defend ourselves from an internal threat. And some even consider the government itself as a potential threat.

I would like to keep my personal feelings out of this discussion.

Tank builder

First let me say I live in England so don't have a dog in the fight on your side of the pond. Having said that some of the incidents I have seen have made me weep for the victims and your country. I understand your constitution and its second rule to be able to carry guns, let me say this from an English point of view, WE ARE NOT GOING TO INVADE AGAIN SO YOUR SAFE OK.

I must also say I have hunted with a rifle and eaten what I killed but that was done on a survival course where a market wasn't available to buy food from.

Every time I build a model at some point I stop and have to walk away when it hits me these things where weapons used to kill people, its part of the hobby and I can live with that and in some way I hope honor the memory of the people fighting in them.

I know this isn't a political forum but from the outside of your country anyone who says as the NRA spokesman said that you don't need less guns but more I feel should say something as stupid as that to the families of the victims and see what happens, I know what I'd do to him.

To end my deepest heart felt sympathy to all the victims of gun crime round the world and I hope one day the only thing left of weapons will be models made by people who every now and then take a minute to think of what they where used for and give a little shudder

Phil