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I wish to clear up a misconception spread.... Locked

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Posted by Aaron Skinner on Friday, June 3, 2011 3:09 PM

Hasta la vista baby!

No one can say they weren't warned. And if this thread is renewed, account suspensions will occur.

Have a nice weekend!

Aaron

Aaron Skinner

Editor

FineScale Modeler

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Posted by Hans von Hammer on Friday, June 3, 2011 2:56 PM

Ahh, hell Manny... Pony up for a 12.00 Monogram kit and have some fun... 

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Posted by Anonymous on Friday, June 3, 2011 2:22 PM

Tracy White

There is then the "tempest in a Tea Kettle" aspect, wherein small items *cough* get turned into a major crisis by a single user or small group. We know, for example, based on Manstein's frequent "Tirpitz" posts, that if Dragon were to post here he would probably respond to each post with "Instructions" to make his point. Lest Manstein think that by "small items" I am referring to his instructions, I am actually referring to plastic models, which are literally small and factually trivial to anyone walking through a live mine field or otherwise being shot at or bombed. OK, a little off tangent there, but I wanted to try and be a little more precise as I seem to regularly write things that people take differently than I anticipate.

Obviously you must feel Mr. Aaron Skinner's instructions earlier in this thread to cease the personal snipes are as unclear as those in Dragon's kits.  Maybe you should go back and re-read...             .

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Posted by carsanab on Friday, June 3, 2011 2:12 PM

soooo in a nut shell......Customer Service is out the door....not important....well those who post in these forums just happen to be their customer base...if they dont listen to the end user than who do they listen too????

and come on,,,,,instructions should be and most other companies do make them universal....im sure all of us have had kits with all the writing in Japanese and didnt have  a problem understanding them....why...BECAUSE who ever wrote them cared about making them understandable...

Stop making excuses for poor customer service....

c

 Photobucket

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  • From: EG48
Posted by Tracy White on Friday, June 3, 2011 2:03 PM

Boilerplate: This is my opinion and not that of any of the model/cottage industry companies I work with.

 

I don't think it's strict indifference; but how a company chooses to invest resources. For example, my site (linked below) is a small resource center; I check in the stats about once a month and see where the traffic is coming from; if there's a spike of some new site I'm not familiar with I will check it out. If it looks like it could be worth my time I will create an account on the message board side and interact with the people and foster traffic and relationships that way. But that can be a significant investment of time if it's a busy site.

Who within a model company invests that time? A PR person? Or do we take time away from a designer and slow down their output of kits? Dragon also has the issue of being a Chinese company selling on the international market; do they then need to have people monitoring traffic on the Dutch, English, French, German, Japanese, Philippine, etc., message boards?

There is then the "tempest in a Tea Kettle" aspect, wherein small items *cough* get turned into a major crisis by a single user or small group. We know, for example, based on Manstein's frequent "Tirpitz" posts, that if Dragon were to post here he would probably respond to each post with "Instructions" to make his point. Lest Manstein think that by "small items" I am referring to his instructions, I am actually referring to plastic models, which are literally small and factually trivial to anyone walking through a live mine field or otherwise being shot at or bombed. OK, a little off tangent there, but I wanted to try and be a little more precise as I seem to regularly write things that people take differently than I anticipate.

Web forums tend to magnify small problems and make it nearly impossible for a manufacturer to have positive relations. How about the Nagato a couple of years back where posters were demanding new hull pieces minus the grid lines? How much would that have cost them, how many people REALISTICALLY cared, and how many people still think about it today? How many people who said they'd boycott Hasegawa over it still are?

I think you will find most of the major manufacturers think that forums are more trouble than they're worth. I haven't strictly talked to Dragon about it, I have sent a couple of links to them in the past to make a point (more about trying to get a product out than anything, I really want those 1/350th figures released separately!), so let me close by reminding everyone that I work WITH them, not FOR them, and their opinions are probably different than the ones I expressed here.

Tracy White Researcher@Large

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Posted by Anonymous on Friday, June 3, 2011 1:49 PM

Wabashwheels

I hope that Dragon will hear the distant drumbeat and exert some effort to improve the quality of their construction instructions.  It is widely agreed that the quality of their product is superb, but the important area of building instruction is woefully inept. 

A model builder, whether a pro or a hand holder, deserves a complete and accurate set of instructions when they lay down $100+ for a kit.  Instructions are not easy to produce, but they are far from impossible. 

It is also difficult to see expensive kits accompanied by lame instructions when kits valued at a fraction of that cost can provide superbly accurate and detailed plans.  Manufacturer indifference, or "do your own research"  just doesn't cut it.  Those who get wind of this information should consider it carefully.  It paints a bad picture of a very desirable kit.  Rick.

Well written...I totally agree...

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  • From: Crawfordsville, Indiana
Posted by Wabashwheels on Friday, June 3, 2011 12:41 PM

Thank you all for laying out some very valuable information concerning this hobby.  I hope that Dragon will hear the distant drumbeat and exert some effort to improve the quality of their construction instructions.  It is widely agreed that the quality of their product is superb, but the important area of building instruction is woefully inept.  A model builder, whether a pro or a hand holder, deserves a complete and accurate set of instructions when they lay down $100+ for a kit.  Instructions are not easy to produce, but they are far from impossible. 

If modeling forums are regarded small ponds if intelligence/opinion by manufacturers, that is a mistake of either ignorance or arrogance on their part.  This forum and its magazine represents a large concentration of customers.  A relatively small hobby in a besieged economy needs to carefully nurture its customers.  Indifference to requests and needs will encourage customers to spend their shrinking dollars elsewhere.   It is also difficult to see expensive kits accompanied by lame instructions when kits valued at a fraction of that cost can provide superbly accurate and detailed plans.  Manufacturer indifference, or "do your own research"  just doesn't cut it.  Those who get wind of this information should consider it carefully.  It paints a bad picture of a very desirable kit.  Rick.

 

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  • From: EG48
Posted by Tracy White on Friday, June 3, 2011 12:29 PM

Sprue-ce Goose
Tracy:

Did Dragon listen to you and correct the faults you uncovered?

On the kit? Oh heck yes, like you wouldn't believe. They essentially scrapped their CAD twice and started over from scratch. The first iteration was a scale-up of the 700th kit and it was UGLY. We located plans, hull lines, etc., and had them scrap the hull and redraw it. Looked much better but then the superstructure looked weird... it turned out it was maybe 10-15% over-scale. They scrapped that and redid it. Then we started getting into the details.

One big lesson I learned quickly was that they are not "ship guys." They are great model kit designers, but I couldn't say things like "move the chock three feet forward" and expect them to do it.

They would send close ups of the island, the catwalks, etc., and I would look them over, find the errors, then locate photos of that specific area or detail and copy that into the CAD screen shot and circle the errors and write correction notes. There was some thought from another individual who was helping that there was no point in detailing the hangar deck, but I managed to figure out the pattern of air ducts, and it wasn't as complex as it looked from the plans, and whereas I'd just hoped to have an inch or two from the elevators detailed out, once we had this pattern Dragon went ahead and added ALL of the ducts, even the ones people aren't going to be able to see.

So yeah, as far as the kit goes, Dragon was willing to "lose" money by doing re-work, and we probably drove them nuts with the change requests. But they stuck with it and the product that is on the shelf today is an order of magnitude better than the first iteration.

With the instructions, essentially, there was bad coordination and schedule management. They had committed to a release date and were  trying to maintain that schedule. The instructions can't be done until the very end, in case there is a piece that needs to be changed in the CAD at the last moment. We were actually changing pieces up until the last  moment; particularly in the shape of the rear of the anti-torpedo blister. They have a limited number of molding machines available, and if you delay a production run by a week, what does that do to the rest of the scheduled runs?

So there was that, and then when the instructions were sent to us on a Friday, they told us they were planning on printing them on the following Monday! They did give us an extra day when we found a ton of typos (all of the island part  number call-outs were wrong) and that also gave me a chance to write a request to change the order so that they were starting from the bottom and working their way up and out, leaving the most fragile pieces for last. They sort-of implemented it, changing the order of construction, but leaving the initial full sub-assemblies.

There just wasn't time at that point to rework them any further. It would have delayed shipment and deliveries, and I'm sure there would have been financial costs from the shippers, etc. I chalked it up as a lesson and asked that we have more dialogue about instructions on the next ship kit. They were positive to the idea, but I haven't even seen the first revision of CAD for Princeton yet, so the instructions are a ways off at this point.

Tracy White Researcher@Large

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  • From: Illinois: Hive of Scum and Villany
Posted by Sprue-ce Goose on Friday, June 3, 2011 11:34 AM

Tracy:

Did Dragon listen to you and correct the faults you uncovered?

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  • From: EG48
Posted by Tracy White on Friday, June 3, 2011 11:26 AM

 

the doog
"Ahh kin pee on three cans throw'd in the air"....

He ain't got nothing on the Waco kid!

Spruce: I was compensated; but it wasn't agreed on before hand. I received a kit, which was all I really ever wanted; the whole reason I started the project was because I wanted a CVL myself, but rather than research and fix problems on the kit like i had been doing on the Trumpeter Essex, it seemed like it was more worth  my time to research and fix the problems before they got committed to plastic. The instructions, etc., weren't even on my radar at that point. It's been an evolving relationship in that sense. In the interest of full disclosure, I also asked for, and received, three extra kits for the purpose of sending to other people that had helped. So in the literal sense I had four kits in my possession, but three of them were not for me.

Tracy White Researcher@Large

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  • From: Illinois: Hive of Scum and Villany
Posted by Sprue-ce Goose on Friday, June 3, 2011 9:47 AM

???

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Posted by the doog on Friday, June 3, 2011 9:45 AM

"Ahh kin pee on three cans throw'd in the air"....

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  • From: Illinois: Hive of Scum and Villany
Posted by Sprue-ce Goose on Friday, June 3, 2011 9:28 AM

I would like to post a clarification:

Regarding Dragon requiring additional tasks be performed by Mr. White without disclosing the full extent of the required work and not compensating Mr. White in any way:

I believe Mr. White should be paid by Dragon for services rendered.

Just my opinion.

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  • From: Illinois: Hive of Scum and Villany
Posted by Sprue-ce Goose on Friday, June 3, 2011 6:45 AM

Mr. White:

I was under the impression that you were performing your duties for Dragon for compensation of some sort and was unaware you performed those tasks for free.

Seems like an awfully big headache considering Dragon makes a financial profit from what you do for them.

I will PM you when you when you are not so busy.

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  • From: EG48
Posted by Tracy White on Friday, June 3, 2011 12:28 AM

Sprue-ce Goose
Though the Dragon employee posting on the forum has been very vociferous in regards to answering hostile comments, he was never civil enough to answer my very civil questions.

I hope you're not referring to me; if so I would invite you to re-read the post I made before yours stating that I was not an employee; I just worked WITH them.

I spent 12 hours today driving, 6 the day before that, and the days prior to that getting ready for this trip. I apologize if I missed a question, but I have been a wee bit busy! Either PM it to me or ask here and I'll answer tomorrow; I'm not quite so busy.

Tracy White Researcher@Large

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  • From: Jefferson City, MO
Posted by iraqiwildman on Thursday, June 2, 2011 7:28 PM

 

Thanks Tracy for explaining how you became an "insider".  Now I need to figure out what to be an expert on.

 

 

"Why can't we all just get along?" Rodney King

Tim Wilding

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  • From: Illinois: Hive of Scum and Villany
Posted by Sprue-ce Goose on Thursday, June 2, 2011 7:04 PM

Hans von Hammer

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v233/HansvonHammer/Screenshots/Models/Monogram%20Mafia/monogram-logo.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v233/HansvonHammer/Screenshots/Models/Monogram%20Mafia/Revell_Monogram_logo-1.jpg

'Nuff said...

They know how to treat their customers!

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  • From: Iowa
Posted by Hans von Hammer on Thursday, June 2, 2011 7:03 PM

'Nuff said...

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  • From: Illinois: Hive of Scum and Villany
Posted by Sprue-ce Goose on Thursday, June 2, 2011 7:03 PM

bbrowniii

Now running, in an all out sprint, for the door.... Propeller

Tankbuilder was merely trying to give Aaron job security and overtime ( checking posts 24 hrs per day.)

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Posted by Sprue-ce Goose on Thursday, June 2, 2011 7:02 PM
tankerbuilder wrote the following post on Thursday, June 02, 2011

Let,s take a moment and think, TRACY and others put themselves right in the headlights of the oncoming modelers semi truck , lighten up already !!

[Quote]

Tankerbuilder

Sorry to hear of your troubles and don't understand why you continued to submit to the process.

Though the Dragon employee posting on the forum has been very vociferous in regards to answering hostile comments, he was never civil enough to answer my very civil questions.

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Posted by bbrowniii on Thursday, June 2, 2011 7:01 PM

Now running, in an all out sprint, for the door.... Propeller

'All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing' - Edmund Burke (1770 ??)

 

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Posted by tankerbuilder on Thursday, June 2, 2011 6:33 PM

I do have to pipe in here . I ,at one time did some "TEST SHOTS " for a now non-existant model car company . As TRACY said ,these can be attrocious AND they (the company) wanted ME to re-write the instructions which wasn,t part of the deal .Now you all would think what can be so hard about building a model car ? Well , when it doesn,t have all the parts , possibly no "glass" and other parts are missing or mal-formed you would not like it.Then develop a paint pattern that can be scanned and converted to decals . Well , it,s a type of work that,s thankless sometimes . I have often thought , why don,t they , DRAGON and TRUMPETER especially , have some kind of proof-reading while building the intended model for say an industry show .They would then possibly do better , as is , I like their kits , not the price , but what are the alternatives?TAMIYA , Shoot their U.S.S. NEW JERSEY at 1/350 costs more per inch than the TRUMPETER U.S.S.ARIZONA at 1/200 !! Let,s take a moment and think, TRACY and others put themselves right in the headlights of the oncoming modelers semi truck , lighten up already !! I would bet ,That the pay , if there is any isn,t worth the dis-respect . I for one will never do that again .I have had folks on this site state , because I am not capable of sending pictures ,that my build of the TRUMPETER ARIZONA , in his words "ain,t happening " Well , there you go , that,s a good example of what this turned into . that,s all ----Tankerbuilder 

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Posted by bbrowniii on Thursday, June 2, 2011 2:49 PM

OOOPS. sorry Aaron. Replied before I saw your warning.

I am now walking, BRISKLY, towards the door....Embarrassed

'All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing' - Edmund Burke (1770 ??)

 

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  • From: 41 Degrees 52.4 minutes North; 72 Degrees 7.3 minutes West
Posted by bbrowniii on Thursday, June 2, 2011 2:45 PM

Manstein's revenge

Ah, I see you fancy yourself a trial lawyer now. 

Well, I did sleep in a Holiday Inn Express last night... Big Smile

Manstein's revenge

 I'll just quote Tracy as a response to your response and let his words tell the facts: "They (Dragon) just don't care enough [about their instructions]."

Not exactly the type of comment you would expect from someone who has pledged their blind allegiane to all things Dragon.

Manstein's revenge

Oh, and wasn't it you that "gave pause" about buying the new Dragon carrier reviewed in the latest issue of FSM because of the reviewer's remarks about the instructions?

Yup, sure was (is). I'm not defending Dragon, or their instructions in this.

'All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing' - Edmund Burke (1770 ??)

 

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Posted by The Navigator on Thursday, June 2, 2011 11:20 AM

This about sums it up!-

I have many books and my Lair smells of rich mahogany!!! Stay thirsty my fellow MOJOs!




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  • From: San Antonio
Posted by MAJ Mike on Thursday, June 2, 2011 10:58 AM

The Navigator

Confused

Bow Down Well said, sir.

 

 

 "I'd "I'd rather be historically accurate than politically correct."

"Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc!"

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Posted by The Navigator on Thursday, June 2, 2011 10:54 AM

Confused

I have many books and my Lair smells of rich mahogany!!! Stay thirsty my fellow MOJOs!




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  • From: Illinois: Hive of Scum and Villany
Posted by Sprue-ce Goose on Thursday, June 2, 2011 10:45 AM

?

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  • From: Here
Posted by The Navigator on Thursday, June 2, 2011 10:18 AM

I have many books and my Lair smells of rich mahogany!!! Stay thirsty my fellow MOJOs!




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