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Kit review nitpick.

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  • Member since
    March 2010
  • From: New Zealand
Kit review nitpick.
Posted by Scorpiomikey on Monday, October 17, 2011 9:22 PM

I know im just nitpicking here. But it kinda bugs me when someone does a kit review with a whole raft of AM parts. If the initial kit is lacking, then i think AM parts should be recommended. But IMO a kit review should review the kit, not how many extras you can stuff in to it. Im getting sick of reading a review to see if there's anything wrong with the kit only to find out the author doesn't know because they stuff a whole bunch of other stuff in and hardly use any kit parts.

How do the rest of you feel about this?

(this is just my opinion)

"I am a leaf on the wind, watch how i soar"

Recite the litanies, fire up the Gellar field, a poo storm is coming Hmm 

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  • Member since
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  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Monday, October 17, 2011 10:20 PM

AgreedYes A review should cover only what comes in the box. If the reviewer is modifying the kit in any way with AM stuff that is not included in the kit, the review is not accurate.

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

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cml
  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Brisbane, Australia
Posted by cml on Monday, October 17, 2011 10:28 PM

Make that two YesYes

A review should be a full critique of the kit - the good and the bad.  If the reviewer thinks things need replacing or are lacking, then it should be noted as being deficient in that area, but, the build should only be completed with what the kit provides.

Chris

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: EG48
Posted by Tracy White on Monday, October 17, 2011 10:29 PM

I'm more ambivalent. If it's a FSM-style review of a kit, then yes; but if it's more of a build write up there's nothing wrong with it. Additionally, "reviews" that are about how one can improve a kit should allow mention of scratch-building and aftermarket.

That said, as one who has written reviews and had to try and coax them out of others, sometimes you're just happy to get anything out of someone....

Tracy White Researcher@Large

  • Member since
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  • From: Austin, TX
Posted by DoogsATX on Monday, October 17, 2011 10:45 PM

Color me ambivalent as well. 

First, because I'm happy enough to find a review that actually involves the kit being built, instead of a reviewer just opening the box, taking some pictures of the sprues, and saying "this kit will be greatly appreciated by fans of [insert whatever the model's subject is here]".

Second, because most AM parts have little to nothing to do with how the kit actually goes together. Replacing plastic or vinyl tires with resin tires just replaces the tires. Replacing a plastic seat with a resin seat just replaces the seat. Replacing a tank barrel with a metal tank barrel just replaces the barrel. Drilling out and scratchbuilding new blast tubes for, say, a P-51's gun fairings improves the appearance of that one area, but has nothing to do with how the wing joins with the fuselage, whether the rudder texture is right, or whether the gear bays are accurate. 

As long as the swap outs for AM or scratched work are disclosed and a reason given, I'm fine with it. I actually like going into a build knowing that the cockpit may need some extra love, or whatnot.

Third, finding actual reviews of AM parts is even worse than finding build reviews of kits...so any real-world application of them is welcome if you're shopping around for them.

On the Bench: 1/32 Trumpeter P-47 | 1/32 Hasegawa Bf 109G | 1/144 Eduard MiG-21MF x2

On Deck:  1/350 HMS Dreadnought

Blog/Completed Builds: doogsmodels.com

 

  • Member since
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  • From: Carmel, CA
Posted by bondoman on Monday, October 17, 2011 10:54 PM

A kit review and a build log can and often are two different things. Kit reviews are all about whats in the box, and in fact I think they should be unpaintedDevil

A build log, which is what I like best, can really be informative. In fact when I am trying to find out if there's AM available for a certain kit, I read build logs and see what the builder uses.

What does wilt my lettuce are "in box" reviews. I find them generally worthless. Useful to look at the sprue shots, but thats it.

  • Member since
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  • From: Austin, TX
Posted by DoogsATX on Tuesday, October 18, 2011 12:25 AM

bondoman

What does wilt my lettuce are "in box" reviews. I find them generally worthless. Useful to look at the sprue shots, but thats it.

Depending on the kit, I do find them useful for a few things.

First - especially if the topic's already represented in that scale - how they handle certain details. Is the tank's barrel slide-molded or halved? Basically...flagging things that may call for AM replacements.

Second - how does it go together. After building Eduard's 1/32 109E-7, it's very interesting to look at how Dragon/Cyber-Hobby approached the same kit. I can't say how well it goes together in the end, but in several key areas I much prefer how they went about things.

Still, they usually feel like a lazy cop-out.

On the Bench: 1/32 Trumpeter P-47 | 1/32 Hasegawa Bf 109G | 1/144 Eduard MiG-21MF x2

On Deck:  1/350 HMS Dreadnought

Blog/Completed Builds: doogsmodels.com

 

  • Member since
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  • From: Iowa
Posted by Hans von Hammer on Tuesday, October 18, 2011 2:28 AM

Kit reviews are all about whats in the box, and in fact I think they should be unpainted

Ditto... I don't swant to see anyhing on the un-painted plastic except the decals...  Just build it S.O.B., and photo it. Warts an' all...  If the reveiwer used used putty or strip, I wanna SEE it... ESPECIALLY where it goes on these 60-70 -100-dollar kits  If I  know what AM parts were used, which now O.O P. production paints the reviewer used, or what Part D-3 did in relation to C-33, then it's not a review... It's a build-log...

The built-up reveiews with all that in stuff is a build-log..

In-box reviews are only slightly  more usefull than staring intently at the box..   Shaddup until you start building it..

  • Member since
    October 2008
  • From: SE Pennsylvania
Posted by padakr on Tuesday, October 18, 2011 5:58 AM

Hans von Hammer

 

Kit reviews are all about whats in the box, and in fact I think they should be unpainted

 

Ditto... I don't swant to see anyhing on the un-painted plastic except the decals...  Just build it S.O.B., and photo it. Warts an' all...  If the reveiwer used used putty or strip, I wanna SEE it... ESPECIALLY where it goes on these 60-70 -100-dollar kits  If I  know what AM parts were used, which now O.O P. production paints the reviewer used, or what Part D-3 did in relation to C-33, then it's not a review... It's a build-log...

The built-up reveiews with all that in stuff is a build-log..

In-box reviews are only slightly  more usefull than staring intently at the box..   Shaddup until you start building it..

I never thought about it that way Hans, but that sounds like a great idea.  A good paint job can hide a lot of stuff.  Being able to see what it looks like before the paint would give us an idea of what was in store if we decide to build it.  And maybe also sway someone to skip a kit that is a little beyond their current skill level (or offer up a new challenge they are looking for).

Paul

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Fort Knox
Posted by Rob Gronovius on Tuesday, October 18, 2011 7:48 AM

While this isn't normally a problem for commercial sites like FSM, there is a lot of pressure to get the "in box preview" done quickly. Normally, the kit is sent to a site and the owner of that site sends out the kit to volunteers to do a review.

The company wants to see reviews of their kits on the web as soon as possible. Then you have to temper the review, being honest (if it's bad) with being grateful to the company who sent you the free kit. You won't survive if you constantly "bite the hand that feeds you" by writing terrible or tardy reviews.

Conversely, if you constantly heap loads of praise on mediocre kits, you run the risk of becoming a shill for that company. Then your reviews are worthless because no one will read them because they know that company could toss empty sprues in a box and you'll write how great the kit is.

Then there's the whole "subject matter expert" matter. Having spent a good number of years on a website's review corps, the review is often only as good as the reviewer's knowledge. On a website I used to review for, I was offered the new (at the time) Dragon M1A2SEP to review. My personal experience on the Abrams line ended at the straight M1A2, and I wasn't as familiar with the SEP as I felt I needed to do a quality review of such a nice kit. There were just too minute detail changes between the mid-90s A2 and the post OIF SEP.

All those little changes (I knew the obvious big differences) really mattered to someone wanting to build the most up-to-date, state-of-the-art, definitive Abrams model kit to hit the shelves in 25 years. I know I couldn't wait to get one, but didn't want to mess up a review on such an outstanding kit that was probably the most accurate modern armor model available in plastic.

I passed on the kit, suggesting they give it to someone more qualified to review the kit for its accuracy. I mean, anyone can tell you what's in the box, how the parts look or if all the iddy bitty pieces fit together.

Instead, they gave it to someone who didn't know any of the variations of Abrams tanks over the last three decades and they wrote maybe a dozen sentences about the kit. It was disheartening to see a long awaited subject be treated to such a hackneyed review.

Believe me, I've been sent models to review that I had very little knowledge about and had no interest in the subject matter. Then the review becomes tedious work. It's one of the reasons I no longer do reviews.

Another reason is the readers that criticize the reviews. If you don't like the reviews, volunteer to write one yourself. Grab a kit off your shelf and write a review of it. Submit it to any of the non-commercial modeling websites; they are always looking for new reviewers. Even multiple reviews on the same subject are welcomed. It is always better to get a look at the kit from a different perspective. Perhaps one knows more about the subject, but you build better than that person or vice versa.

Or maybe someone did the dreaded "in box preview" or added all the bells & whistles and now you can do a full up OOB build review.

Don't get me wrong, everyone has a right to complain, but if you don't like the way reviews are done, do them yourself. [yeah, yeah, I've heard the excuses; no time, can't write, dog ate my homework, etc.]

BTW Hans, Military Model Preview (search for that model magazine on eBay) used to do reviews of armor and aircraft kits built OOB without painting them and decals on bare plastic. They were often overly harsh and stopped getting gratis kits to review from manufacturers. They did not last long.

  • Member since
    February 2011
Posted by knox on Tuesday, October 18, 2011 12:04 PM

I agree with Hans.  There used to be a magazine called " Military Model Preview " that gave bare plastic reviews and builds.  You knew exactly what you were getting when you bought a kit that they had reviewed.

  • Member since
    March 2010
  • From: New Zealand
Posted by Scorpiomikey on Thursday, October 20, 2011 3:39 PM

Thanks for the responses guys. Some interesting stuff being said. Not really sure what else to say. Just reinforce my position of a kit review should be of the kit. If you start plugging AM bits and bobs into a kit it becomes more of a review of said AM bits.

"I am a leaf on the wind, watch how i soar"

Recite the litanies, fire up the Gellar field, a poo storm is coming Hmm 

My signature

Check out my blog here.

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Fort Knox
Posted by Rob Gronovius on Thursday, October 20, 2011 5:29 PM

You may be reading an article you think is a review, but is actually a build article or an article about accurizing that kit. Some sites do not make the distinction between reviews, build articles and features. They just lump all written submissions as "reviews".

With the advent of blogs on modeling sites, there are more written reviews/build articles than ever before, which is not a bad thing.

However, on many non-commercial sites that receive gratis kits, when they hand them out, once the modeler gets the review kit, he may decide not to do a straight up review, but instead invest some of his own money into the project and end up with a build article.

If you think about it, if you just got handed a hot, new kit that you really wanted for free just to do a review, you'd probably want go all out and use some of the money you saved by getting the kit for free and spend it on the bells and whisltes you might not have been able to afford if you had to buy the kit itself.

That's what happens alot.

I understand, and agree, that when I see a review, I want an expert's opinion on the kit, whether or not the detail is sharp, how it fits, what's included in the kit. I am not necessarily interested in all the additional AM pieces. I am interested in what would need to be done to the kit to accurize it to the level I'd like it to have. Since we all no that no kit is perfect and many need tweaks here and there.

  • Member since
    January 2007
Posted by the doog on Thursday, October 20, 2011 9:24 PM

cml

Make that two YesYes

A review should be a full critique of the kit - the good and the bad.  If the reviewer thinks things need replacing or are lacking, then it should be noted as being deficient in that area, but, the build should only be completed with what the kit provides.

YesYesYes

  • Member since
    June 2008
  • From: Iowa
Posted by Hans von Hammer on Friday, October 21, 2011 12:42 AM

BTW Hans, Military Model Preview (search for that model magazine on eBay) used to do reviews of armor and aircraft kits built OOB without painting them and decals on bare plastic. They were often overly harsh and stopped getting gratis kits to review from manufacturers. They did not last long.

I have a few issues of that rag, Rob... That's why I said what I said.. Wink I picked up a dozen or so copies for .50 cents each at my LHS.. Immediately I thought, "What a great review process!"...

I dunno f they were "overly harsh", but they damned-sure didn't pull any punches...  But I saw white on the plastic (read: gap-filling) on some joints in most of the kit photos...  Small wonder that they got the axe from the manufacturers...

But I never see any kit reviewed in FSM that ends, "Can't recommend this kit"...   There MUST be a kit that they receive that is a dog of a kit sometimes....  Overall, they appear as ads for the model to me...  Closest thing to a "bad" review in FSM ends with, " Experience Modelers will enjoy this one..."

  • Member since
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  • From: Fort Knox
Posted by Rob Gronovius on Friday, October 21, 2011 7:18 AM

"Overly harsh" with regards to the continuation of receiving sample kits from manufacturers for free. We all know there is a fine line between an honest review of a bad kit and totally trashing it. A little tact in a few of their reviews, half full vs. half empty style statements, might have kept them going.

It was and still is a good idea for a review format. It's doubtful any volunteer website reviewer would "sacrifice" a kit they purchased in order to perform a review in that way. I tend to do a lot of painting throughout assembly and building in that format virtually leaves a completed model with no paint. It would be hard to finish up. I'd probably need to unassemble it down to painting stages.

That's why they relied on sample kits. Plus, when manufacturers give away sample kits, they want to see them built by experienced modelers, all painted and gussied up so they look nice and pretty. They want the review to inspire modelers by having their kit built and looking like the full scale prototype, not like an unpainted glue bomb kit minus fingerprints. That's why I doubt we'll see that format tried again, even the best of kits can look terrible unpainted with decals on plastic.

  • Member since
    February 2011
  • From: Bent River, IA
Posted by Reasoned on Friday, October 21, 2011 7:28 AM

Hans von Hammer

But I never see any kit reviewed in FSM that ends, "Can't recommend this kit"...   There MUST be a kit that they receive that is a dog of a kit sometimes....  Overall, they appear as ads for the model to me...  Closest thing to a "bad" review in FSM ends with, " Experience Modelers will enjoy this one..."

Good point, that is true of most reviews I have read in FSM, even from online @ Cyber or Modeling Mad.

I'm also in agreement the review should be based on OTB and preferably built.

Science is the pursiut of knowledge, faith is the pursuit of wisdom.  Peace be with you.

On the Tarmac: 1/48 Revell P-38

In the Hanger: A bunch of kits

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: EG48
Posted by Tracy White on Friday, October 21, 2011 10:20 AM

Hans von Hammer
Closest thing to a "bad" review in FSM ends with, " Experience Modelers will enjoy this one..."

Just send it back and decline to review it! Big Smile

I've written reviews before and have had to take part in that dance. It's integrity versus financial viability.

Tracy White Researcher@Large

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: EG48
Posted by Tracy White on Friday, October 21, 2011 10:31 AM

Reasoned
I'm also in agreement the review should be based on OTB and preferably built.

I say unto thee; go forth and review!

Tracy White Researcher@Large

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Fort Knox
Posted by Rob Gronovius on Friday, October 21, 2011 11:20 AM

I agree with Tracy. Since the vast majority of reviewers are unpaid and often buy the review kits themselves, it is up to them on how they "review" the kit. Whether it be OOB, build review, accurization article or a build article that they add all the bells & whistles to, it's their choice and as I said, if you don't like the style of reviews, start doing them yourself.

  • Member since
    June 2008
  • From: Iowa
Posted by Hans von Hammer on Friday, October 21, 2011 11:40 AM

We all know there is a fine line between an honest review of a bad kit and totally trashing it.

Unless it's a Monogram kit, then it's "Trash Away!"... Wink

But seriously now, perhaps a mix is called for.. Construction photos of any perceived "Bad spots", coupled with a shot of it painted and pretty... The review I read in "another mag" about the 1/72 Dragon P-61 was really honest, and the kit was photographed in the both the construction phase and finished stage, but the reviewer also said that he "couldn't recommend the kit to anyone, at least not at the price Dragon was charging, with the number of kit-flaws and fit-issues I found."...

(Just FYI, the fit-issues and inaccuracies were mostly in the same areas that folks complain about with the 1/48 Monogram kit.. Boom-to-wing and canopies... )

 

 

  • Member since
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  • From: Bent River, IA
Posted by Reasoned on Friday, October 21, 2011 11:41 AM

Rob Gronovius

I agree with Tracy. Since the vast majority of reviewers are unpaid and often buy the review kits themselves, it is up to them on how they "review" the kit.

While true, constructive suggestions can help one produce a better product. 

Science is the pursiut of knowledge, faith is the pursuit of wisdom.  Peace be with you.

On the Tarmac: 1/48 Revell P-38

In the Hanger: A bunch of kits

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: EG48
Posted by Tracy White on Friday, October 21, 2011 12:13 PM

I agree, but I see two sides of it. A friend in Army Special Forces once related to me that during training, if someone asked a question, the instructor always answered with "thank you for volunteering to teach us all about it!"

The point being that it's better to DO something about an issue than just talk about it. Obviously we can't all start our own magazine to run things the way we think they ought to be done, but at the same time, there's nothing that says you can't buy the kits and write the reviews you want to see. There's demand for all of it, otherwise we wouldn't be discussing it.

One can set up a review blog with very little technical knowledge these days and go to town. If it proves popular then it will probably influence sites and magazines more than just saying how things ought to be.

Tracy White Researcher@Large

  • Member since
    June 2008
  • From: Iowa
Posted by Hans von Hammer on Friday, October 21, 2011 12:50 PM

Blogging on the internet ain't my style....  It's too "Look at ME!" for me... Besides, nobody would read it...  Stick out tongue

As for your SF friend telling someone to "Tell us all about it", that's only when you got a "Sharpshooter" (Some gomer that reads ahead in the LOI and tries to impress the rest of the class with his "knowledge' ...) in your class, not when some Snuffy just asks a question... Sharpshooters have to be taken down a notch or two right away, or they'll fill the rest of the Snuffy's heads with bad or useless info..Wink

I always liked to whack 'em right back with a bull-**** question that has no answer that will please me.. "How long is a string?" or "Your M-2 Compass is 15 degrees off... There are 17.7 mils in one degree.. How many drops from a 3 oz. can of mils will bring it back true?"...

Man, I miss doing that... Cool

 

 

 

  • Member since
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  • From: Bent River, IA
Posted by Reasoned on Friday, October 21, 2011 1:01 PM

Hans von Hammer

"Your M-2 Compass is 15 degrees off... There are 17.7 mils in one degree.. How many drops from a 3 oz. can of mils will bring it back true?"...

 

err.... Confused ........ 229?

 

Geeked

Science is the pursiut of knowledge, faith is the pursuit of wisdom.  Peace be with you.

On the Tarmac: 1/48 Revell P-38

In the Hanger: A bunch of kits

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Friday, October 21, 2011 1:43 PM

Tracy White

Obviously we can't all start our own magazine to run things the way we think they ought to be done, but at the same time, there's nothing that says you can't buy the kits and write the reviews you want to see. There's demand for all of it, otherwise we wouldn't be discussing it.

Hmmmmm, a new area here on FSM Forums perhaps...? Hmm Forum Member Kit Reviews  with sub catagories to match the model catagories- Aircraft, Armor, Helos, Ships, Autos, Figures, Space, Sci Fi, etc.

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    June 2008
  • From: Iowa
Posted by Hans von Hammer on Friday, October 21, 2011 2:06 PM

Reasoned

 Hans von Hammer:

"Your M-2 Compass is 15 degrees off... There are 17.7 mils in one degree.. How many drops from a 3 oz. can of mils will bring it back true?"...

 

 

err.... Confused ........ 229?

 

Geeked

No.. Drop an' gimme 25...

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Tornado Alley
Posted by Echo139er on Friday, October 21, 2011 2:09 PM

stikpusher

 

Hmmmmm, a new area here on FSM Forums perhaps...? Hmm Forum Member Kit Reviews  with sub catagories to match the model catagories- Aircraft, Armor, Helos, Ships, Autos, Figures, Space, Sci Fi, etc.

Oooh, I like that idea!

  • Member since
    February 2011
  • From: Bent River, IA
Posted by Reasoned on Friday, October 21, 2011 2:21 PM

Hans von Hammer

 Reasoned:

 Hans von Hammer:

"Your M-2 Compass is 15 degrees off... There are 17.7 mils in one degree.. How many drops from a 3 oz. can of mils will bring it back true?"...

 

 

err.... Confused ........ 229?

 

Geeked

 

No.. Drop an' gimme 25...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v233/HansvonHammer/Humor/Smilies/th_pushup-1.gif

Gawwwwwwwlly Sarge

Science is the pursiut of knowledge, faith is the pursuit of wisdom.  Peace be with you.

On the Tarmac: 1/48 Revell P-38

In the Hanger: A bunch of kits

  • Member since
    June 2010
  • From: Austin, TX
Posted by DoogsATX on Friday, October 21, 2011 2:33 PM

Hans von Hammer

Blogging on the internet ain't my style....  It's too "Look at ME!" for me... Besides, nobody would read it...  Stick out tongue

I'd read it.

You have a very...distinct perspective. Personally I think it'd lend itself well to a dedicated blog.

On the Bench: 1/32 Trumpeter P-47 | 1/32 Hasegawa Bf 109G | 1/144 Eduard MiG-21MF x2

On Deck:  1/350 HMS Dreadnought

Blog/Completed Builds: doogsmodels.com

 

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