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Contest judging

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  • Member since
    November, 2009
  • From: Twin Cities of Minnesota
Contest judging
Posted by Don Stauffer on Saturday, September 02, 2017 9:35 AM

I find some disagreement about what folks think about this issue, so wondering if there is any consensus among forum folk.

Usually, at most contests, they like to have multiple judges for each category, ideally at least three.  The issue becomes, do the three judge each model independently, then do some sort of points assignment and total the points for each model.

Or, do the judges interact while judging, and reach a consensus on each model, assigning a relative position.  The problem I have with such a system is that some judges have a very strong personality, and speak as if they had more knowledge of the category model type than they really do, and browbeat the other judges, so that the resulting consensus is really the opinion of that single judge. 

I prefer the first type of judging, where each judge judges each model independantly, then assign a number, say 0 to 10, then take the total as that model's score.

 

Don Stauffer in Minnesota

fox
  • Member since
    January, 2007
  • From: Coatesville, Pa.
Posted by fox on Saturday, September 02, 2017 11:30 AM

At the contests I've attended, it looks like the judges interact and pick the models for consideration of an award, continue on till the class is completed then go back and spend more time with those that they picked to make their final choices. There were usually 3 or 4 judges for each class depending on how many volunteered. Have never seen less than 3. I have seen them call for the models owner and ask questions if there was some type of question that they needed an answer to.

I do, however, have to agree with you on the fact that I have heard some with strong personalities over-ruling the others. It did seem that the right model was picked as there was usually agreement among most in attendence when the awards were given out.

Jim  Captain

Photobucket Main WIP: Rebuild of Monogram 1/8 "Big Deuce" with 1/8 Pocher V-12 in rear - 10%

   On the Bench:   Revell 1/48 Ju 52/3m - 50%;  Revell 1/96 USS Kearsarge - 20% 

I keep hitting "escape", but I'm still here.

  • Member since
    November, 2003
  • From: State of Mississippi. State motto: Virtute et armis (By valor and arms)
Posted by mississippivol on Saturday, September 02, 2017 11:46 AM

I find it funny that the car judging wraps up way sooner than the other categoriesWhistling. I feel that Don's second observation is probably the most prevalent, which is why I wish that judging was more feedback based and with a goal of improving standards rather than feeding egos.

  • Member since
    February, 2006
  • From: Boston
Posted by Wilbur Wright on Saturday, September 02, 2017 12:03 PM

I completely agree with Don.

 

That said , There can be some real blow-hard idiots at model contests.  I like the late John Tilley's take on model contests.

  • Member since
    April, 2009
  • From: Longmont, Colorado
Posted by Cadet Chuck on Saturday, September 02, 2017 12:20 PM

Every committee has a loud-mouthed know-it-all who tries to run things his way.  I dropped out of our local IPMS because of the "strong opinioned" person who was the president.  

I figured since I had retired, I no longer had to put up with those "Type A" personalities anymore!

Computer, did we bring batteries?.....Computer?

  • Member since
    October, 2006
  • From: Tucson, AZ
Posted by Archangel Shooter on Saturday, September 02, 2017 12:34 PM

Trying to get a couple of things ready for the Phoenix show next year. Currently busy down sizing the stash to a more managable level.

 Your image is loading...

 On the bench: So many hanger queens.

 

 

  • Member since
    March, 2007
  • From: Northeast WA State
Posted by armornut on Saturday, September 02, 2017 1:17 PM

While I have never judged at a really big show, the ones I did participate in there were 3 judges.  We kept it basic to "thin the herd" ie are all the tires on the ground, seams addressed, basic paint,  and decals. Once we had our top picks we would go back and get more detailed, ie how much scratchbuilt, AM, exicution of AM. I felt that was a fair and unbiased approach.

   The thing that gets me fidgety is rivet counting both in aircraft and armor, that being said if I enter something I almost never expect to place. Sometimes I am pleasantly surprised, almost never truely dissappointed. IT'S A HOBBY.

we're modelers it's what we do

  • Member since
    September, 2016
Posted by Retired In Kalifornia on Saturday, September 02, 2017 5:14 PM

Entered two contests in 1991; IPMS local affiliate & the national. At the national submitted two models, knew 100% had no chance, thought I'd score at the local...I'd entered seven models in one category, somebody then entered a superdetailed 1/72 Beechcraft C-45 (AT-7 Navigator possibly), lots of radio thingees on top, doomed yet again.

After that humiliation quit going to model shows, withdrew from the hobby year later...some of same judging folks still at the IPMS local today, won't compete where I live, might do so elsewhere in state IF I can check out what it takes to win these days.

fox
  • Member since
    January, 2007
  • From: Coatesville, Pa.
Posted by fox on Saturday, September 02, 2017 6:30 PM

I always enter shows with the opinion that I'll win nothing. I've learned a lot but I have a lot more to learn. I have been very surprised when my name is called for an award. At one show, I brought a WWI bi-wing that was a very old kit with cloth covering on the wings and fuselage. It was a 1/72 kit and I didn't have the skill to install rigging. The only paint on it was the landing gear, cowl and the pit. I almost hit the floor when my name was called out for a second place award. 

I enter just for the fun of it. If I win something, great. That's what the raffles are for too. If not, I've met loads of guys that teach me new skills. I seriously have to learn how to spend less time in the vendor rooms. Next show is PennCon in 2 weeks. I'll be there with 6 or 7 entries. If you're there and you hear my name called out, look for me on the floor.

Jim  Captain

Photobucket Main WIP: Rebuild of Monogram 1/8 "Big Deuce" with 1/8 Pocher V-12 in rear - 10%

   On the Bench:   Revell 1/48 Ju 52/3m - 50%;  Revell 1/96 USS Kearsarge - 20% 

I keep hitting "escape", but I'm still here.

  • Member since
    January, 2013
Posted by BlackSheepTwoOneFour on Sunday, September 03, 2017 9:51 AM

Last year, I went to my first model kit show at Syrcon; located in Cicero, NY and they did have a contest going on. Not a whole lot on display but fun to see. Although I didn't stick around for the judging but I did get raffle tickets. Worth it since I won a Sherman kit. Who knows. I might enter one of these days.

  • Member since
    January, 2007
  • From: Charlotte, North Carolina
Posted by the doog on Sunday, September 03, 2017 10:03 AM

Well, I've been a judge at IPMS regionals, and I've been judged at both IPMS and AAMPS-style contests and in my opinion, there are some huge problems with IPMS judging, so much so that I'm pretty much done with IPMS style contests. In short, IPMS judging pretty much sucks--not the people, but the methodology. AAMPS-style judging--where each and every model is judged against itself and an "ideal"standard, is the best method of judging.

When judging IPMS contests, yes, it's sad but true that very often the "senior" member of a judging team is overly deferred-to, much of it human nature because the designated judges are usually judging with one or more volunteers who just wind up being mostly "yes men", or who don't really understand the peculiar points of IPMS judging, and are easily intimidated by a knowledgeable, recognized judge who carries a bit of gravitas by virtue of his title alone. I also think that nobody wants to get on the bad side of a judge by disagreeing too passionately, for obvious reasons. In my experience, judges quickly peruse a category, then pick the "obvious" best ones, then go about looking for reasons to disqualify one vs the other for first place. Again--it's more of a process of "DIS-qualifiaction" than to reward what is good about a model. Once two or more models are deemed possible winnners, usually one THEN does the discussion turn to "Well THIS is very nicely done here; THAT looks like it took a lot of effort". The shame is, if four models are fabulous, with very minor, minor points of distinction between them, one of those beautiful models is going to be off the "podium" so to speak.

But another thing that hurts IPMS is that I believe that there is a firm, undeniable bias against today's new "weathered" style. Let's be honest--a lot of IPMS judges are older guys who grew up in the traditional style of modeling with only a wash and drybrush to "weather" a model, and a lot of them seem to vote against heavily-weathered models no matter how well they're done. I won't deny that I have a heavy bias and sensitivity here, but when you read some forum opinions about what's "realistic" vs "artistic", there are people out there who will not agree, under any circumstances, that any more weathering than THEY think is appropriate is "correct". I have seen some trult spectacular models be passed over for trophies by models that were plainly and truthfully, simply boring. I have read an opinion in the past that "IPMS rewards mediocrity", and while I won't say that I haven't seen some SPECTACULAR winners who MUCH deserved their First Place trophies, I've seen just as many First places which left me (and others in the room) shaking their heads in disbelief.

And that's another problem. The way that IPMS judges models---and this is an old and perennial complaint--it throws the baby out with the bathwater. In other words, you can build a show-stopping, popular-vote-winning stunner of a model, but if Judge A with his flash light, 6x magnifier and dental pick detects one 2mm seam that you missed on the bottom of an inner road wheel or something similarly insignificant "error" on the underside of a gorgeous model---you're toast. It's dis-considered for a trophy. But if you're lucky and careful enough to cross all of your modeling T's and dot all of your styrene I's, but put a bland, uninspiring finish with little creativity on your model, you COULD potentially take home a first. ESPECIALLY if there's only two or three in your class. And you could beat that stunning, stand-out model because of that tiny 2mm seam. And ironically, if you're lucky enough to have on one other entry in your class, your very-poorly built model with obvious, glaring flaws can take home a 2nd place! It's just infuriating and everyone in the room goes up to that guy and says "Your model was the best, man; you wuz robbed". But the results stand. A lot of guys go home pissed to the moon because of this, and I've been on both sides of the problem. Not going to deny my personal bias here, but I also have felt terrible for guys who were crushed that their obvious effort was beat by something very basic but so very "correct".

AMMPS judging takes each model, assesses it against an ideal, and then gives you points on or off, and tells you what you could improve. There's no allowance therefore for a poorly-done model taking a First when there's only one in a category, as I've seen so many times in IPMS. You get judged for what you got right AND wrong. In the end, I think a modeler walks away feeling respected and validated, recognized and appreciated for what they've entered, unlike so many IPMS contests where guys just stop entering because they just never place or feel recognized in any way.

I don't mean to criticize or demean any IPMS judge out there--I've been one myself. But they/I are just captives of the system, and every one of us is human, makes bad calls and mistakes, and has their own biases. It's not so much the people but the manner of judging that really is poorly designed and results in so much frustration. AAMPS-style judging admittedly takes much longer, but in the end, it's a much more satisfying contest to attend. and it's a shame that it's not adopted as the standard.

My FOTKI model gallery with most of my best models can be found HERE

My real name is "Karl" Smile

  • Member since
    December, 2002
  • From: Fort Knox
Posted by Rob Gronovius on Sunday, September 03, 2017 12:12 PM

mississippivol

I find it funny that the car judging wraps up way sooner than the other categoriesWhistling. I feel that Don's second observation is probably the most prevalent, which is why I wish that judging was more feedback based and with a goal of improving standards rather than feeding egos.

The Armor Modeling and Preservation Society (AMPS) uses a gold, silver and bronze method of judging. Your armor kit is judged against a set standard. Any number of kits entered in a category can win gold/silver/bronze. You will receive feedback on your build. It is more time intensive form of judging.

In a regular IPMS contest, they are always begging for volunteers to judge. Years ago, I was known as a 1/72 scale armor builder and would always be tapped to judge the 1/72 scale armor. My "expertise" lies in modern US armor, but the category would be predominately German armor and some Shermans.

I try to judge fairly based on construction (even parts, no seams), painting (no globs or missing spots), decaling (silvering mainly). Yes, there is often someone more seasoned than you judging, pointing out that the model is an "early Tiger" in "late Tiger" markings (for example). I've also seen M1A2 tanks in USMC markings (Marines don't use the M1A2). I look passed these discrepancies to judge the basics, however, I may use my knowledge as a tie breaker.

It's a thankless task; people expecting to win are often unhappy that they didn't win enough. People, like me, who just hack our ways through modeling, are happy if we get handed some trinket. I have a box full of those 5"x7" plaques somewhere in the basement. Small medals are displayed in a glass case along with some models.

  • Member since
    September, 2016
Posted by Retired In Kalifornia on Sunday, September 03, 2017 12:47 PM

The two model contests I'd entered was to show my work and possibly win something; the local IPMS affiliated I'd belonged to during the 1980s & early 90s regularly held model displays at shopping centers.

In 1991 the affiliate held a two-day display at a major regional shopping center, 200-plus models of all types were tabled. I'd tabled all the models had recently entered in the affiliate's model contest, somebody wanted to buy one of them on the spot, refused as wanted to keep it awhile, guy was really miffed.

The "weathering" issue is a hard one for me to deal with never mind the model contest judging angle. I love weathering work, even the bad particularly if it "tells a story", still am an old fashioned "dry brusher" but willing to try "modern" techniques when not pressed for time. Most memorial "mud & grime" weathering I'd done were two Italeri Me 323s late 1980s, wooden cargo floor screamed wear & tear, couldn't replicate it today, don't have space to store the beast.

  • Member since
    September, 2016
Posted by Retired In Kalifornia on Sunday, September 03, 2017 1:00 PM

the doog

Well, I've been a judge at IPMS regionals, and I've been judged at both IPMS and AAMPS-style contests and in my opinion, there are some huge problems with IPMS judging, so much so that I'm pretty much done with IPMS style contests. In short, IPMS judging pretty much sucks--not the people, but the methodology. AAMPS-style judging--where each and every model is judged against itself and an "ideal"standard, is the best method of judging.

When judging IPMS contests, yes, it's sad but true that very often the "senior" member of a judging team is overly deferred-to, much of it human nature because the designated judges are usually judging with one or more volunteers who just wind up being mostly "yes men", or who don't really understand the peculiar points of IPMS judging, and are easily intimidated by a knowledgeable, recognized judge who carries a bit of gravitas by virtue of his title alone. I also think that nobody wants to get on the bad side of a judge by disagreeing too passionately, for obvious reasons. In my experience, judges quickly peruse a category, then pick the "obvious" best ones, then go about looking for reasons to disqualify one vs the other for first place. Again--it's more of a process of "DIS-qualifiaction" than to reward what is good about a model. Once two or more models are deemed possible winnners, usually one THEN does the discussion turn to "Well THIS is very nicely done here; THAT looks like it took a lot of effort". The shame is, if four models are fabulous, with very minor, minor points of distinction between them, one of those beautiful models is going to be off the "podium" so to speak.

But another thing that hurts IPMS is that I believe that there is a firm, undeniable bias against today's new "weathered" style. Let's be honest--a lot of IPMS judges are older guys who grew up in the traditional style of modeling with only a wash and drybrush to "weather" a model, and a lot of them seem to vote against heavily-weathered models no matter how well they're done. I won't deny that I have a heavy bias and sensitivity here, but when you read some forum opinions about what's "realistic" vs "artistic", there are people out there who will not agree, under any circumstances, that any more weathering than THEY think is appropriate is "correct". I have seen some trult spectacular models be passed over for trophies by models that were plainly and truthfully, simply boring. I have read an opinion in the past that "IPMS rewards mediocrity", and while I won't say that I haven't seen some SPECTACULAR winners who MUCH deserved their First Place trophies, I've seen just as many First places which left me (and others in the room) shaking their heads in disbelief.

And that's another problem. The way that IPMS judges models---and this is an old and perennial complaint--it throws the baby out with the bathwater. In other words, you can build a show-stopping, popular-vote-winning stunner of a model, but if Judge A with his flash light, 6x magnifier and dental pick detects one 2mm seam that you missed on the bottom of an inner road wheel or something similarly insignificant "error" on the underside of a gorgeous model---you're toast. It's dis-considered for a trophy. But if you're lucky and careful enough to cross all of your modeling T's and dot all of your styrene I's, but put a bland, uninspiring finish with little creativity on your model, you COULD potentially take home a first. ESPECIALLY if there's only two or three in your class. And you could beat that stunning, stand-out model because of that tiny 2mm seam. And ironically, if you're lucky enough to have on one other entry in your class, your very-poorly built model with obvious, glaring flaws can take home a 2nd place! It's just infuriating and everyone in the room goes up to that guy and says "Your model was the best, man; you wuz robbed". But the results stand. A lot of guys go home pissed to the moon because of this, and I've been on both sides of the problem. Not going to deny my personal bias here, but I also have felt terrible for guys who were crushed that their obvious effort was beat by something very basic but so very "correct".

AMMPS judging takes each model, assesses it against an ideal, and then gives you points on or off, and tells you what you could improve. There's no allowance therefore for a poorly-done model taking a First when there's only one in a category, as I've seen so many times in IPMS. You get judged for what you got right AND wrong. In the end, I think a modeler walks away feeling respected and validated, recognized and appreciated for what they've entered, unlike so many IPMS contests where guys just stop entering because they just never place or feel recognized in any way.

I don't mean to criticize or demean any IPMS judge out there--I've been one myself. But they/I are just captives of the system, and every one of us is human, makes bad calls and mistakes, and has their own biases. It's not so much the people but the manner of judging that really is poorly designed and results in so much frustration. AAMPS-style judging admittedly takes much longer, but in the end, it's a much more satisfying contest to attend. and it's a shame that it's not adopted as the standard.

 

Absolutely no way would I win anything with the resins I build. Most castings of Regia Aeronautica Italia subjects I've come across though very well detailed near always are off alignment, untold hours spent on each filling & sanding to get an "acceptable" presentation never mind passing muster with IPMS affiliate judges. I'm not afraid to enter any but a couple of them in an IPMS contest, just hoping The Judges keep in mind there aren't a lot of after market resin, white metal, brass or whatever detail parts for Italians like the 1/72 LF Piaggio P.32 though am 100% sure somebody has done great work in this regard with this bear of a kit to build.

  • Member since
    January, 2013
Posted by BlackSheepTwoOneFour on Sunday, September 03, 2017 2:33 PM

I guess the best way to put it when it comes between judging the kit and the entrant: It's not what you know but who you know.

From what I've been reading here, there's just too much politics when it comes to judging kits in a contest. I often wonder if the same people who enter these contest with multiple kits always wins. If so, then there's your problem right there. Too many of the same entrants being the regular and not giving the others a fair shot of winning.

 

  • Member since
    March, 2005
  • From: Lancaster, South Carolina
Posted by Devil Dawg on Sunday, September 03, 2017 4:32 PM

Hmmmmmmm.... Interesting points from everyone that's responded. But, I have a question or two to ask.....

Are the judges following the rules set forth by their respective sanctioning bodies? If so, and the contest entrants are aware of the same rules, then how can anybody complain? I've entered a few contests (not many, but a few), and have helped judge only a few local contests, and seen the angry modelers who felt that they deserved to win, even though the judges felt otherwise. If you agree to have your model judged at a contest by a specific set of rules, and the judges are following those rules, you have nothing to complain about. That's why it's called judging (forming an opinion or conclusion about). Just because I think my model ought to win regardless of what I think of anyone else's entry, I can't complain if it doesn't win if I agreed to have it judged by someone else. If I go in there with the wrong attitude, I've already negated the purpose of this relaxing, fun, wonderful hobby. The same goes for anyone else, including other judges, who don't agree with the final results of a contest - if the judging was performed according to the rules, and you agreed to those rules, then you have nothing to complain about. You're letting another person/persons make an informed OPINION about the quality of your modeling skills based on pre-arranged rules that everyone entering has agreed to.

And that's just my opinion. I also don't weather my models - at all. But that's only because I like to show a model as it rolled off the factory floor, and the fact that I'll screw up a build quickly when I try to weather it........  

Devil Dawg

On The Bench: Travel 1/48th Hasegawa A-7 Corsair II;  Travel 1/48th Hasegawa F/A-18F Super Hornet;  Travel 1/48th Eduard/Hasegawa Ultimate Sabre with "MiG Mad Marine" markings;

Build one at a time? Hah! That'll be the day!!

  • Member since
    September, 2004
  • From: Denver
Posted by tankboy51 on Sunday, September 03, 2017 8:43 PM

Okay, lve been judging for 40 years and I've been head judge,(at least armor), at IPMS and the precursor to AMPS many years ago.  We followed IPMS standard for judging at all times. There is a rule book on it.  We did not make this up.  The style of weathering was not to be considered. Heavy or some, or none at all.  Most, if not all models, we're elimated due to modeling errors, seams, gaps, painting, and decal flaws,the list can go on.  It's not easy.  Any one can become a judge, we need you.  I tried to stop strong personalities from dominating the judging opinions, and mostly succesful, at least I thought so.  We judged in teams of 3, always.  We always had 3 experienced judges, and one or two new ones, whose vote did not count, but their opinions did.  No one could judge a model they built or had any connection to the builder.  

One of the best ways to lean to model is to build them and to learn judging.  Just by saying a model was was stopped because a 2 mm error drives me crazy.  It's usually more than that.

One thing that I've noticed over the years is that modelers have improved greatly.  Modeles have also gotten better as well.  Yes, judging has gotten harder.

It can be a lot of fun.

  • Member since
    October, 2015
  • From: Selinsgrove, Pennsylvania
Posted by Brian Miller on Sunday, September 03, 2017 9:08 PM

I just recently came back from the IPMS Nationals in Omaha where I judged a few categories. I've judged at several smaller shows as well. The plan at all the shows were for the three judges to look over all the entries individually and come back together and each judge to give what they thought were the three best. In 90% of the categories all the judges had the same three. Then we try to sort out which were the best of those three. And, yes, a small blemish in the paint can knock you out of the running. Do a simple model well, and you will beat a difficult, yet average build.  I'm sure that there are some crooked judges out there, but I've never met one. I believe the biggest problems are with the contestants, not the judges. It's rather sad that the day after the contest the trash cans contain a few models that didn't win. Apparently the builders got pi**ed they didn't win and tossed them. Rather stupid. I've seen guys enter models in 12 categories and get 10 awards. This happens in 3-4 shows every year. What do they do with them all? I've seen a modeler enter 12 models in a single category and get angry when none of them won anything. I guess he thought the shotgun tactic would work. As for the Gold, Silver, Bronze way of judging. I guess its ok for those that like it. I personally don't. Actually if you know the criteria for the GSB shows, you could just judge your own model, give yourself an award, and skip the show. If all you want from the show is to walk away with a bunch of awards, which a ton of guys are like that, more power to you.

  • Member since
    September, 2016
Posted by Retired In Kalifornia on Sunday, September 03, 2017 10:20 PM

tankboy51

Okay, lve been judging for 40 years and I've been head judge,(at least armor), at IPMS and the precursor to AMPS many years ago.  We followed IPMS standard for judging at all times. There is a rule book on it.  We did not make this up.  The style of weathering was not to be considered. Heavy or some, or none at all.  Most, if not all models, we're elimated due to modeling errors, seams, gaps, painting, and decal flaws,the list can go on.  It's not easy.  Any one can become a judge, we need you.  I tried to stop strong personalities from dominating the judging opinions, and mostly succesful, at least I thought so.  We judged in teams of 3, always.  We always had 3 experienced judges, and one or two new ones, whose vote did not count, but their opinions did.  No one could judge a model they built or had any connection to the builder.  

One of the best ways to lean to model is to build them and to learn judging.  Just by saying a model was was stopped because a 2 mm error drives me crazy.  It's usually more than that.

One thing that I've noticed over the years is that modelers have improved greatly.  Modeles have also gotten better as well.  Yes, judging has gotten harder.

It can be a lot of fun.

 

Brian Miller

I just recently came back from the IPMS Nationals in Omaha where I judged a few categories. I've judged at several smaller shows as well. The plan at all the shows were for the three judges to look over all the entries individually and come back together and each judge to give what they thought were the three best. In 90% of the categories all the judges had the same three. Then we try to sort out which were the best of those three. And, yes, a small blemish in the paint can knock you out of the running. Do a simple model well, and you will beat a difficult, yet average build.  I'm sure that there are some crooked judges out there, but I've never met one. I believe the biggest problems are with the contestants, not the judges. It's rather sad that the day after the contest the trash cans contain a few models that didn't win. Apparently the builders got pi**ed they didn't win and tossed them. Rather stupid. I've seen guys enter models in 12 categories and get 10 awards. This happens in 3-4 shows every year. What do they do with them all? I've seen a modeler enter 12 models in a single category and get angry when none of them won anything. I guess he thought the shotgun tactic would work. As for the Gold, Silver, Bronze way of judging. I guess its ok for those that like it. I personally don't. Actually if you know the criteria for the GSB shows, you could just judge your own model, give yourself an award, and skip the show. If all you want from the show is to walk away with a bunch of awards, which a ton of guys are like that, more power to you.

 

Y'all seen & judged Gifts From God, Breathtakingly Spectacular, Spectacular, Darn Good, Plain Good, Just Good, Mediocare, So-So, Shades Of Gray Bad, Patently Bad, Ugly, Plain Ugly, Pig Ugly on & on, thanks for your devotion & patience!

I know some of my builds since 2004 when I'd resumed the hobby aren't good, won't be remiss pointing out really gross errors made building a Choroszy Modelbud Breda Ba 25 kit months ago whenever I get around to photographing it, that thing won't be entered in contests platinum guaranteed, but I won't throw it away, cost me a fortune to buy!

I still remember being ripped to shreads by my friend now of 54 years in 1966 over crudely airbrushing a Revell P-39 Cobra II kit, cried over that no end. He-he was "the better judge" in telling me: "spend more time learning how to spray paint rather than rush to get something built to show off" to him. That never left me, still hurts, probably is why to this day am reluctant to visit another local IPMS meet knowing somebody's readly to pounce on seeing resin bubbles I'd not worked on harder puttying-up them up knowing full well damn thing would fall apart just looking at it never mind touching it!

  • Member since
    January, 2007
  • From: Charlotte, North Carolina
Posted by the doog on Monday, September 04, 2017 9:31 AM

Brian Miller

I just recently came back from the IPMS Nationals in Omaha where I judged a few categories. I've judged at several smaller shows as well. The plan at all the shows were for the three judges to look over all the entries individually and come back together and each judge to give what they thought were the three best. In 90% of the categories all the judges had the same three. Then we try to sort out which were the best of those three. And, yes, a small blemish in the paint can knock you out of the running. Do a simple model well, and you will beat a difficult, yet average build.  I'm sure that there are some crooked judges out there, but I've never met one. I believe the biggest problems are with the contestants, not the judges. It's rather sad that the day after the contest the trash cans contain a few models that didn't win. Apparently the builders got pi**ed they didn't win and tossed them. Rather stupid. I've seen guys enter models in 12 categories and get 10 awards. This happens in 3-4 shows every year. What do they do with them all? I've seen a modeler enter 12 models in a single category and get angry when none of them won anything. I guess he thought the shotgun tactic would work. As for the Gold, Silver, Bronze way of judging. I guess its ok for those that like it. I personally don't. Actually if you know the criteria for the GSB shows, you could just judge your own model, give yourself an award, and skip the show. If all you want from the show is to walk away with a bunch of awards, which a ton of guys are like that, more power to you.

 

I think the reason that you see them in the trash cans is because guys just get defeated--they think they did a bangup job, put their heart into something, and then they don't even get recognized. Not the best reaction, I heartily agree, but some people don't take rejection well. I wonder how many people give up the hobby because they feel like a failure? What would be best would be if there was a small sheet that could be left next to each model giving a reason for why it was not considered. That would at least give people a heads-up about what they could improve and at least feel like they know what they should watch for next time.

It's not about bringing home a ton of medals or trophies--to be honest, I've got boxes of them that I don't even know what to do with, but it's the recognition, the validation that is nice with AAMPS judging. When I go to an AAMPS show, I bring less models, because I KNOW that each one is going to be recognized, appreciated, and critiqued--you don't just walk away feeling like your contribution was dismissed for some unfathomable reason. And as an IPMS judge, I honestly have seen models dismissed for a "2mm seam". And to be honest, even though other judges may have dinged it, I've let a model go for the same "2mm seam", because I don't honestly think it's important or significant enough to disqualify a model.

My FOTKI model gallery with most of my best models can be found HERE

My real name is "Karl" Smile

  • Member since
    December, 2002
  • From: Fort Knox
Posted by Rob Gronovius on Monday, September 04, 2017 11:28 AM

Brian Miller

I just recently came back from the IPMS Nationals in Omaha where I judged a few categories. I've judged at several smaller shows as well. The plan at all the shows were for the three judges to look over all the entries individually and come back together and each judge to give what they thought were the three best. In 90% of the categories all the judges had the same three. Then we try to sort out which were the best of those three. And, yes, a small blemish in the paint can knock you out of the running. Do a simple model well, and you will beat a difficult, yet average build.  I'm sure that there are some crooked judges out there, but I've never met one. I believe the biggest problems are with the contestants, not the judges. It's rather sad that the day after the contest the trash cans contain a few models that didn't win. Apparently the builders got pi**ed they didn't win and tossed them. Rather stupid. I've seen guys enter models in 12 categories and get 10 awards. This happens in 3-4 shows every year. What do they do with them all? I've seen a modeler enter 12 models in a single category and get angry when none of them won anything. I guess he thought the shotgun tactic would work. As for the Gold, Silver, Bronze way of judging. I guess its ok for those that like it. I personally don't. Actually if you know the criteria for the GSB shows, you could just judge your own model, give yourself an award, and skip the show. If all you want from the show is to walk away with a bunch of awards, which a ton of guys are like that, more power to you.

All of my award plaques, not a great amount of them by any means, are stacked in a box in the basement. I've been given some awards because there weren't a lot of entries in the category and my model wasn't as bad as the others. I don't think of my kits as award winning models, but some of them won something.

I'm more proud of the couple of bronze and one gold I received on kits I thought I did a decent job on. While I know much of the criteria for GSB and can read the rules, having a group of your peers evaluate your model at near perfection is much more rewarding than getting a plaque out of a random number of entries. Besides, three experienced judges will catch more than I can on my own kit.

The feedback I received on the gold & bronze kits was invaluable in helping me get better, catching things I didn't see or know about. In a 1/2/3 contest, all I know is I won something or nothing for that model and that there happened to be better models (or worse) in that specific category than mine. I've won a third place trophy with a figure that is not really an "award winning" model, but was one of only three entries ao it is technically an award winning model.

As far as the number of entries in the same category, that modeler probably only builds certain subjects. I knew someone who only built 1/48 scale WW2 naval fighters. All his builds tend to go into the same category. When I used to build mainly 1/72 scale armor, all my kits went into the same category. Once in a while, if there are a lot of 1/72 scale armor, the category might get split into armor and softskins or WW2 and modern armor, something along those lines. We're not using a "shotgun tactic", it's just the genre of models we like to build. You probably know modelers that build just one category of kits too.

So guys who build a lot and of the same range of kits will end up entering a lot of kits into the same category. I see nothing wrong with this. If modelers didn't bring kits to show, there'd be no model show. I tend to be a cheapskate and only bring the amount of kits to enter that come with the basic entry fee. I go to contests to see other people's models rather than to try to enter everything I've built the past year. But there are some guys who go for validation and will enter everything and the kitchen sink.

I agree with you about the contestants being the problem; getting upset at not winning or throwing away models that didn't win is a personality fault, not the judges fault.

  • Member since
    January, 2013
Posted by BlackSheepTwoOneFour on Monday, September 04, 2017 12:30 PM

Wow.... tossing a kit in the trash just because he felt he/she should have won? Kinda over-reacting a bit too far and immature in my opinion. It only makes him/her look like a sore loser.

 

 

  • Member since
    January, 2007
  • From: Charlotte, North Carolina
Posted by the doog on Monday, September 04, 2017 12:54 PM

BlackSheepTwoOneFour

Wow.... tossing a kit in the trash just because he felt he/she should have won? Kinda over-reacting a bit too far and immature in my opinion. It only makes him/her look like a sore loser.

 

 

 

Lol, absolutely it is! But honestly, that not only shows up in "trashed models", but even here online. I can remember people to whom I had given well-intentioned critique and advice, and they just went off-the-charts ballistic for my having the temerity to criticize them! Unfortunately, when you're dealing with personal artistic expression, you're going to find these over-sensitive types. There are PLENTY of them in the field of Music as well, believe me!

My FOTKI model gallery with most of my best models can be found HERE

My real name is "Karl" Smile

  • Member since
    January, 2016
  • From: Columbia Falls, Montana
Posted by Hunter on Monday, September 04, 2017 1:09 PM

the doog

 

 
BlackSheepTwoOneFour

Wow.... tossing a kit in the trash just because he felt he/she should have won? Kinda over-reacting a bit too far and immature in my opinion. It only makes him/her look like a sore loser.

 

 

 

 

 

Lol, absolutely it is! But honestly, that not only shows up in "trashed models", but even here online. I can remember people to whom I had given well-intentioned critique and advice, and they just went off-the-charts ballistic for my having the temerity to criticize them! Unfortunately, when you're dealing with personal artistic expression, you're going to find these over-sensitive types. There are PLENTY of them in the field of Music as well, believe me!

 

 

That is sad....what's worst is that they call themselves adults. That is one of the great things about the forums here. I want everyone to point out my errors or give suggestions...that's the best way to improve your skills and knowledge. Maybe they will grow up one day.

Hunter 

      

  • Member since
    September, 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Monday, September 04, 2017 1:35 PM

I guess it's something you'd really need to have a desire to do. I've found that if it's something I'm good at, like drawing, I'll put up with the criticism.

 

 

  • Member since
    October, 2015
  • From: Selinsgrove, Pennsylvania
Posted by Brian Miller on Monday, September 04, 2017 2:55 PM

Whoever suggested that the judges write the pros and cons of the model on the entry slip should run for president. That is an excellent idea. A simple ,"good paint job, but a few glue spots," or "great rigging, but mast is crooked" would be an idea that I think may work. The only problem with it is, some builders would be following the judges around and griping about what was written. As for what I said about the guys who enter tons of models. It's not so much about them getting tons of awards, but they enter the same model several years in a row in the same show. That I dont understand. Also, i understand the shotgun affect. I've entered models in the same catergory before, too. i just didnt get the idea of hauling 13 models to the show and entering in one category. 

  • Member since
    December, 2002
  • From: Fort Knox
Posted by Rob Gronovius on Monday, September 04, 2017 4:59 PM

Brian, good points about some builders following the judges around afterwards to gripe. That would definitely happen with some guys. I was happy to get feedback on my builds from the judges. To be honest, I had no idea who wrote the notes on my kits. Might have had a name back then, but I doubt I had a face to connect it to.

One socially inept modeler from one of my old clubs built 1/144 scale aircraft. He built a lot of those little fighters and was very prolific. He would enter all new kits in the local contests for the year. He'd then retire them and enter new kits the next year. Probably over a dozen in the same category each show. He was pretty good and would scratchbuild some parts so they were different variants. He would jokingly say it included a fully scratchbuilt cockpit inside, you just can't see it.

There were some Braille scale armor modelers that would haul in dozens of poorly and well built kits and enter them. I guess if a smaller kit takes less time to build, you can knock out many more than more complex large scale builds. The poorly built ones often looked like they were dipped in cans of paint and they were all the same color.

I have seen several models that appear to show up again and again in local shows. So much so that it isn't a show until Old Joe's glue bomb hits the table again. That one, I will never understand. Another one I won't understand is when guys buy someone's built kit and then attempts to enter it on our own. Heck, I'd give the guy some of my old plaques if he wanted one that badly.

  • Member since
    January, 2013
Posted by BlackSheepTwoOneFour on Monday, September 04, 2017 7:04 PM

Rob Gronovius
.

Another one I won't understand is when guys buy someone's built kit and then attempts to enter it on our own. Heck, I'd give the guy some of my old plaques if he wanted one that badly.

 

Wow ... that's called cheating on someone else's hard work. So wrong....

  • Member since
    December, 2002
  • From: Fort Knox
Posted by Rob Gronovius on Monday, September 04, 2017 7:47 PM

I was once shown a diecast, pre-built M3 halftrack that was exactly like a model someone entered in a local New England show. Okay, the halftrack was decent for a pre-built display piece, but obviously not a serious model contest entry.  Yet someone did enter it.

  • Member since
    November, 2009
  • From: Twin Cities of Minnesota
Posted by Don Stauffer on Tuesday, September 05, 2017 8:35 AM

I know many friends who build a lot of models per year, and all in the same category.  Others are more varied in what they build.  Most of my friends enter everything they build in the past year, as a way of displaying what they built in the past year.  The fact that some specialize and build only one type of model doesn't bother me, even though I am one of those who aspire some day to have an entry in every category.

 

Don Stauffer in Minnesota

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