Do the dollars make the modeler?

aftermarket or OOB? Personally, I'm definitely an OOB person. I've not really mastered the art of the aftermarket, and I hope that I don't soon, as the price of even the most basic AM 'improvement' is absolutely absurd. I find that most AM kits are completely unjustified in their pricing, and as such, I don't think it fair to judge a model that may have a boat-load of AM stuff a better model. As many have said, it's the final painting and weathering that really bring out a model, so that is where my inclination towards a better model.

Using aftermarket goodies is just one way to go at it. And in this hobby of ours there are as many standards as there are modelers. Modeling need not be expensive. A lot of details can be added to a model using commonly found materials. One needs only to be creative and resourceful. The important thing here is 'how' a model is built and not only 'what' it is made of. So to admire a modeler so much simply because of the aftermarkets he stuffed in his model is being one-sided. (related posts can be found in 'realism or superdetailing?' thread many pages back in aircraft forum)

I sure do hope not.

Or else OOB builders like me would really be out of place in the hobby. I basically don't spend much on PE or AM because of budgetary constraints and I just try to make use of what I have and could afford to have. My diorama are often scratchbuilt from ordinary materials.

I build to please ME, if that takes resin or PE....then so be it. Some kits need aftermarket stuff some dont. If you like the results, fine if you dont thats fine too!

Let's be honest, it takes skill to put some of those PE sets together. However, I feel painting and weathering makes or breaks the whole build. I mean most average modelers can put the pieces together, but the artistry that comes from an airbrush or brush will make the build the most realistic. A beautiful build with mega costing parts would come crashing down with a poorly sprayed factory fresh camouflage for example. You notice that the first thing everyone comments on are the great camouflage and the weathering. Most wouldn't even notice the scratchbuilt parts unless the author mentioned them. So bottom line: painting and weathering are vitally important whether it be an OTB builder or AM builder.

To tell the truth, it's the modeler who can turn a sow's ear into a silk purse that impresses me.
My father in law (a fitter and turner/engineer by trade) can do the most amazing things with the most primitive facilities. He's a genius - and imagine what he could do with expensive machine tools!

There are those who can turn a sow's ear into a silk purse (and let's face it: there are a lot of sow's ears out there!) Some do it with aftermarket parts and PE, some do it with scratchbuilding, some use a combination of both. The bottom line, like J-Hulk said, is skill and artistry. And both are to be admired.
Paul

QUOTE: What I love about this hobby, is the challenge to take what you have purchased, and with your skills turn it into a thing of beauty.

I couldn't agree more. I think most of us set ourselves a challenge when we open the box and decide to build a given kit. We aim for a given result The aim might be to do a strictly OOB build and to build it flawlessly, or to go for a level of historical accuracy that might involve buying a load of after market accessories. That is the great thing about this hobby. I get to set the challenge, and strictly in terms of this discussion, I don't think either option is any less challenging that the other.

Even though I realize that it takes skill to produce a great looking build with AM parts as well , I am more overwhelmed by one that is very well done and detailed looking OOB. I guess that comes from myself pretty much being an OOB builder and always trying to get people thinking there was some am stuff used.

I would think the modeler who can turn the worst kit into a jewel or moving statement is an artist. However they get there, strip stryrene, aftermarket or just covering it up with battle damage. The end result is, well the result, if it's good or bad, doesn't matter how to the casual observer.
It seems that most who use PE, don't use it all. I've never used AM tracks because I haven't done a kit yet that needed them., I'd like to try them eventually.
AM barrels to me seem like cheating a bit though, unless there's a major flaw with the kit. (no judgement there, just my opinion).

This is the idea behind Mad Tiger Day, getting everybody to concentrate on one kit, without extras, and see what happens.
Different skill levels and different interpretations will lead to a variety of results. Hopefully a lot of fun too.

If the dollars made the modeller, I probably would be doing something else! What I love about this hobby, is the challenge to take what you have purchased, and with your skills turn it into a thing of beauty. I don't think buying all the latest after market gadgets is a measure of what your capabilities, and natural talents are. being able to take pieces and parts and taylor them to a precise fit, making modifications within the boundaries of the kit itself, all expose the skills and abilities of the modeller. money cannot buy personal achievement. semper fi, mike

Sorry if I'm repeating anything that's been said, but I haven't read any of the other replies as I usually do...

Skill, which mostly comes with experience, is THE factor in building a good model. You can pour all the money you want into a kit with all sortsa fixins. If you haven't got the skill to make it look good, then all that resin, brass and who knows what else ain't gonna help you out one bit.

Whenever I take someone under my wing, or when I judge at show, I always stress that the basics come first all the way round. You have to learn the basics and get them down before you can even hope to do well with advanced modeling techniques, especially if you plan to drop some resin or brass into a kit.


Fade to Black...

QUOTE: But I was thinking...in all the magazines I've read, websites I've visited, and modellers I've talked to, I don't think I've ever heard ANYONE say ANYTHING like "you have to have aftermarket parts to make a model look good." I think it's pretty obvious that you have to have skill, creativity, and ambition to create great models, and from my experiences, that's precisely what I've always heard people say. Who would EVER agree that one can substitute accessories for skills, or that dollars make the modeller? To me, it's just a moot point.

I think that your comment emphasizes something that I've thought for a long time. I've always been of the opinion that the true "Skills" necessary to build a kit are actually minimal. We need a lot of "Techniques" but not a lot of true "Skills". A Skill is something that takes time to learn, and perhaps one person can do better than another. A "Technique" is something that most people can learn to do at the same level in about the same amount of time. Reading instructions, sanding parts, filling seams, these are "Techniques" that we all learn to do. Paint in 3-color soft-edged camoflage; that is a skill and not everyone can do it properly (myself included!).

Perhaps another definition of the difference between "Skill" and "Technique" is one who can take a $20 kit and make it look like a $200 piece of art without adding $300 worth of aftermarket parts.

QUOTE: Originally posted by MusicCity Look at some of the completely scratch built models that show up in the magazines from time to time, and then tell me you have to have aftermarket parts to make a model look good. It ain't the kit, it ain't the AM parts or PE or resin or decals. It's the experience and patience and abilities of the person putting it all together.

I couldn't agree with you more!

But I was thinking...in all the magazines I've read, websites I've visited, and modellers I've talked to, I don't think I've ever heard ANYONE say ANYTHING like "you have to have aftermarket parts to make a model look good."

I think it's pretty obvious that you have to have skill, creativity, and ambition to create great models, and from my experiences, that's precisely what I've always heard people say.

Who would EVER agree that one can substitute accessories for skills, or that dollars make the modeller? To me, it's just a moot point.

Perhaps I am naive...

Look at some of the completely scratch built models that show up in the magazines from time to time, and then tell me you have to have aftermarket parts to make a model look good.

It ain't the kit, it ain't the AM parts or PE or resin or decals. It's the experience and patience and abilities of the person putting it all together. I wish I could say that I have it, but I don't.

QUOTE: Originally posted by scottrc NO! Skill, creativity, and ambition make the modeler.

I have to agree. If not why not just buy some of those screw together diecast kits. I love a beautiful model no matter how the builder got across the finish line but I want to talk to the guy who scratchbuilds his details. From him I can learn something.

I build mostly OOB these days, because most of the modern kits have pretty good detail. I do use mostly AM decals because these are generally superior in quality to the kit supplied decals or for a particular AC I want to depict. The AM PE & Resin goodies are nice & I do use them once in a while when I want to Jazz things up a bit. But it takes as much or more skill to paint & detail a resin cockpit as it does for the kit parts. The AM parts are very useful for the older kits which lacked detail. I think modeling is modeling regardless which approach you take. The end result is what matters & the $ spent is only incidental to the finished product.

well i bought a lot of aftermarket stuff , for the first 1/32 RAF phatom i did, simply because i was crap at painting the cockpit , i bought a eduard F4E ready painted one , 1 problem the aircaft was meant to be a F4J , then i realised the kit was a phantom F4C/D, so i had to buy more aftermarket stuff , nose cone , exhaust cans, then came the seats, the tamiya ones had no seat belts , so i bought a set of belts , tried to put them in arrrrgh , so in the end i painted the pilots put them in glued down the canopies to hide my embaresment, this time around i bought the right kit F4J, dry brushed the cockpit, bought aftermarket seats , so far all i spent out was a F4J cockpit detail set

NO! Skill, creativity, and ambition make the modeler.

me too.......what they all said.......

my ......... for me the finished product in all its glory is the reward to view........how he/she got there is personal.....but, it is in the detail with the completed project being the sum total of all it's parts....AM or scratch or OOB........who cares but, the builder.
i love detail and if i can render a project with all the detail in the world and no-one can tell it's there, but looks at it a second or third time ?????.....then i've created my own satisfaction.....and that's enough for me.

.....but, money surely should NOT be an issue in a completed project !!!!!!!!!!!

QUOTE: Originally posted by J-Hulk QUOTE: Originally posted by fightnjoe ...anyone can take after market stuff and photoetch stuff and make decent add ons... joe Sorry Joe, but I have to disagree. Not everybody can! Sure, anyone can BUY aftermarket stuff for their models, but to effectively apply those parts requires just as much, if not more skill than any other aspect of modelling. Anyone can buy them and slap 'em on their models. It's what the master modeller DOES with those AM parts that creates a masterpiece. I think some people feel that the AM stuff essentially builds the model for the modeller, but I would have to disagree with that wholeheartedly. Again, is money necessary to create a masterpiece? Nope! Is skill and artistry necessary, regardless of financial investment? Yup!

point taken.

joe

QUOTE: Originally posted by crockett I mean, can one substitute accessories for skill?

I could have saved myself a lot of typing by just directly answering this one question!

"Can one substitute accessories for skill?"
Heck, no!!

QUOTE: Originally posted by fightnjoe ...anyone can take after market stuff and photoetch stuff and make decent add ons... joe

Sorry Joe, but I have to disagree. Not everybody can!
Sure, anyone can BUY aftermarket stuff for their models, but to effectively apply those parts requires just as much, if not more skill than any other aspect of modelling. Anyone can buy them and slap 'em on their models. It's what the master modeller DOES with those AM parts that creates a masterpiece.

I think some people feel that the AM stuff essentially builds the model for the modeller, but I would have to disagree with that wholeheartedly.

Again, is money necessary to create a masterpiece? Nope!
Is skill and artistry necessary, regardless of financial investment? Yup!

I appreciate a model for its overall impression. It doesn't matter how much money or even time was spent on it, if it looks good. For me, it's just that simple.

While a person spending 200 dollars on all the best PE and resin bits available but producing a poor result doesn't impress me, neither does hearing a guy tell me he spent 200 hours scratchbuilding the hinges on his Tiger's loader's hatch from Coke cans and hairpins, if the model looks like crap.

It's all about the final impression, and I don't care how the modeller gets there. I've seen straight out-of-the-box builds that are much more impressive than some big-buck aftermarket extravaganzas or scratchbuilt swarays. Aftermarket goodies are no substitute for basic modelling skills and artistry.

But, all things being equal, I would like to see as much detail as possible in a model.
It takes a different set of skills to effectively manipulate PE and resin, so I'm just as impressed by masters of those mediums as I am an OOB master.

Kinda rambling here...I guess what I've tried to say here is that it doesn't matter. A beautiful model is a beautiful model, and I am just as impressed by a masterpiece created with all the bells and whistles as I am by a masterpiece created OOB.

If the underlying question here is "do you need to spend a lot of money to create a masterpiece?", well, that's easy!

NO!

honestly i believe it is the one who can take a kit and make it art that is the better modeler. anyone can take after market stuff and photoetch stuff and make decent add ons but to take a kit and to build it without them to me is something special.

joe