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                        What qualifies a pilot as an ace?

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                        bud156
                        • Member since
                          May 2003
                        • From: La Crosse, WI
                        What qualifies a pilot as an ace?
                        Posted by bud156 on Tuesday, May 3, 2005 10:11 AM
                        I was wondering what qualifies a pilot as an ace? Also, are there any current aces? I know we were able to keep those Iraqi pilots pretty busy for this war and the one in '91. If it's a ground attack aircraft, can they become an ace for hitting ground targets or is it just air to air kills? Just curious, thanks!
                        Mike
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                        overkillphil
                        • Member since
                          October 2004
                        • From: Northern Indiana
                        Posted by overkillphil on Tuesday, May 3, 2005 11:08 AM
                        5 kills qualifies as an ace, typically only air to air victories count. I'm not sure if there are any aces on active duty at the moment, but I would imagine there are. Not sure if OIF generated any though, as the Iraqi AF wasn't a serious factor. Maybe some of the others will have more info.
                        my favorite headache/current project: 1/48 Panda F-35 "I love the fact that dumb people don't know who they are. I hope I'm not one of them" -Scott Adams
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                        Trigger
                        • Member since
                          February 2004
                        • From: Moooooon River!
                        Posted by Trigger on Tuesday, May 3, 2005 3:09 PM
                        There haven't been any American pilots to make the status of "ace" since the Vietnam War. One F-15 pilot did score two MiG kills in ODS and his plane scored three (his two and the third scored by another pilot), but that's been the most scored by an American since 1975.

                        There were no A/A engagements in OIF to my knowledge. The Iraqi Air Force sat this one out. Some of there MiG-25s even "buried their heads in the sand!"

                        Off the top of my head, Steve Ritchie and Randy Cunningham come to mind as Vietnam era aces, but I know there had to be more. Neither is no longer in the service but Ritchie still flies an F-4D at airshows. If you have the chance to see him, by all means go! I doubt there are any aces flying these days
                        ------------------------------------------------------------------ - Grant "Can't let that nest in there..."
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                        grandadjohn
                        • Member since
                          February 2003
                        • From: phoenix
                        Posted by grandadjohn on Tuesday, May 3, 2005 6:05 PM
                        All kills must be confirmed to be counted
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                        Tankmaster7
                        • Member since
                          August 2004
                        • From: Nowhere. (Long Island)
                        Posted by Tankmaster7 on Tuesday, May 3, 2005 7:51 PM
                        And forever gone are the days of aces like Hartmann, Marseille, Galland, Bader and Gabreski.
                        -Tanky Welcome to the United States of America, a subsidiary of Exxon Mobil Corporation, in partnership with Halliburton. Security for your constitutional rights provided by Blackwater International.
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                        AH1Wsnake
                        • Member since
                          December 2002
                        • From: Modeling anything with "MARINES" on the side.
                        Posted by AH1Wsnake on Wednesday, May 4, 2005 1:52 AM
                        And definitely do not forget about Major Richard I.Bong.

                        Top US ace of WWII.

                         

                        "There are only two kinds of people that understand Marines: Marines and those who have met them in battle. Everyone else has a second-hand opinion."
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                        bud156
                        • Member since
                          May 2003
                        • From: La Crosse, WI
                        Posted by bud156 on Wednesday, May 4, 2005 9:03 AM
                        He's from the area I grew up in Duluth. One of the main bridges from Duluth, MN to Superior, WI is called the Richard I. Bong memorial bridge. They have a museum type thing for him. I believe it may have been featured in an issue of FSM.
                        Mike
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                        zokissima
                        • Member since
                          July 2003
                        • From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
                        Posted by zokissima on Wednesday, May 4, 2005 9:48 AM
                        QUOTE: And forever gone are the days of aces like Hartmann, Marseille, Galland, Bader and Gabreski.

                        Lets be thankful that they are gone.
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                        Lufbery
                        • Member since
                          December 2002
                        • From: Harrisburg, PA
                        Posted by Lufbery on Wednesday, May 4, 2005 10:01 AM
                        Because that kind of flying and fighting are no longer needed? Because (we hope) the era of world wars is ended?

                        -Drew

                        Build what you like; like what you build.

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                        overkillphil
                        • Member since
                          October 2004
                        • From: Northern Indiana
                        Posted by overkillphil on Wednesday, May 4, 2005 10:34 AM
                        Because that type of conflict was a bloody meat grinder that killed a lot of promising young men. Say what you will about modern warfare, it still far safer to be a pilot or soldier today than it used to be.
                        my favorite headache/current project: 1/48 Panda F-35 "I love the fact that dumb people don't know who they are. I hope I'm not one of them" -Scott Adams
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                        Lufbery
                        • Member since
                          December 2002
                        • From: Harrisburg, PA
                        Posted by Lufbery on Wednesday, May 4, 2005 11:48 AM
                        QUOTE: Originally posted by overkillphil

                        Because that type of conflict was a bloody meat grinder that killed a lot of promising young men. Say what you will about modern warfare, it still far safer to be a pilot or soldier today than it used to be.


                        Amen.

                        It is a great shame, too, that a number of our top aces died as test pilots -- especially on the P-80 -- after they stopped flying combat in WWII.

                        Regards,

                        -Drew

                        Build what you like; like what you build.

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                        berny13
                        • Member since
                          February 2003
                        • From: Panama City, Florida, Hurricane Alley
                        Posted by berny13 on Wednesday, May 4, 2005 8:01 PM
                        QUOTE: Originally posted by overkillphil

                        5 kills qualifies as an ace, typically only air to air victories count. I'm not sure if there are any aces on active duty at the moment, but I would imagine there are. Not sure if OIF generated any though, as the Iraqi AF wasn't a serious factor. Maybe some of the others will have more info.


                        Actually in the ETO of WW ll, air to ground kills were also counted toward ace status. The leading air to air ace in the ETO was Robert S. Johnson, with 28 air to air kills. He had no air to ground kills at all.

                        In Vietnam the USAF had three aces. The top ace with six kills was a back seater named Charles DeBellvue. Steve Ritchie, a pilot and Jeff Feinstein, a WSO is also credited with five kill each.

                        The Navy had Randy Cunningham and Willie Driscoll as their only ace crew.

                        Berny

                         Phormer Phantom Phixer

                        On the bench

                        TF-102A Delta Dagger, 32nd FIS, 54-1370, 1/48 scale. Monogram Pro Modeler with C&H conversion.  

                        Revell F-4E Phantom II 33rd TFW, 58th TFS, 69-260, 1/32 scale. 

                        Tamiya F-4D Phantom II, 13th TFS, 66-8711, 1/32 scale.  F-4 Phantom Group Build. 

                         

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                        bud156
                        • Member since
                          May 2003
                        • From: La Crosse, WI
                        Posted by bud156 on Wednesday, May 4, 2005 10:34 PM
                        Whats ETO?
                        Mike
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                        Anonymous
                        • Member since
                          November 2005
                        Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, May 4, 2005 11:31 PM
                        European Theatre of Operations.
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                        djrost_2000
                        • Member since
                          February 2003
                        • From: Where the coyote howl, NH
                        Posted by djrost_2000 on Wednesday, May 4, 2005 11:44 PM
                        I think in WWII the Germans required 10 kills to grant the title of ace. It depends on each nations individual standards, but in the modern world it is pretty much accepted as 5 kills. In the US RIO's and WSO's who are present in the cockpit during a kill are also credited with the kill.

                        Dave
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                        Anonymous
                        • Member since
                          November 2005
                        Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, May 5, 2005 6:54 AM
                        Yeah Dave 10 kills made the WWII Luftwaffe pilot an aceThumbs Up [tup]
                        Something else of interest is the Most highly decorated Luftwaffe (and every other service of the Wermacht) pilot of WWII was a Stuka pilot called Hans Rudel who was the sole recipient of the Knights Cross with Oakleaves Swords and Diamonds plus the Golden Oak leaves for destroying 1 Battleship, a cruiser, a destroyer and over 70 landing craft plus 500 tanks 800 trucks 150 artillery posistions and a great many Bridges, and on top of that he destroyed 9 enemy aircraft in the air after trading his Stuka for an FW 190............
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                        djrost_2000
                        • Member since
                          February 2003
                        • From: Where the coyote howl, NH
                        Posted by djrost_2000 on Thursday, May 5, 2005 5:08 PM
                        I've heard of Rudel before. I didn't know his career was so distinguished. I never heard of Gold Oak Leaves to the Knights Cross before. I thought Diamonds to the Knights Cross was the highest. He must have been one absolutely amazing pilot. Who says fighter jocks get all the glory!

                        Thanks for the information,

                        Dave
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                        Anonymous
                        • Member since
                          November 2005
                        Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, May 5, 2005 5:23 PM
                        Haqns Ulrich Rudel wrote a book called "STUKA PILOT". The book I have is a Bantam Book ISNB 0-553-12304-1. Well worth the read....
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                        qmiester
                        • Member since
                          May 2003
                        • From: Central USA
                        Posted by qmiester on Thursday, May 5, 2005 8:10 PM
                        Some where I've seen this sign:

                        "Fighter pilots make movies, Attack pilots make history"
                        Quincy
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                        Anonymous
                        • Member since
                          November 2005
                        Posted by Anonymous on Friday, May 6, 2005 12:39 AM
                        If I remember correctly, Hans Rudel's input on ground attack aircraft was used in the development of the A-10.

                        Notes on U.S. Aces:

                        WWI: Capt Eddie Rickenbacher (26 victories)
                        WWII: Major Richard Bong (40 victories)
                        Korea: Major Joe McConnell (16 victories...also top U.S. jet ace)
                        Vietnam: See Berny13's post.

                        Two war Aces (all are USAAF/USAF except the one noted):

                        Colonel Gabreski : 28 WWII (ETO), 6.5 Korea
                        Colonel Thyng: 5 WWII, 5 Korea
                        Colonel Bolt (USMC): 6 WWII (PTO), 6 Korea
                        LTC Garrison: 7.3 WWII, 10 Korea
                        Major Whisner: 15.5 WWII (ETO), 5.5 Korea
                        Major Hagerstrom: 6 WWII, 8.5 Korea
                        Major Davis: 7 WWII (ETO), 14 Korea
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                        Anonymous
                        • Member since
                          November 2005
                        Posted by Anonymous on Friday, May 6, 2005 5:26 AM
                        in my book all pilots that fight air to air and survive.....hard core men..well done to all fly boys...jazz
                        Report Abuse
                        Anonymous
                        • Member since
                          November 2005
                        Posted by Anonymous on Friday, May 6, 2005 7:54 AM
                        Yeah your dead right Dragonfire Rudels experience was used to aid in the development of the A-10......
                        As for Aussie aces no Australian fighter pilot has claimed a kill since Korea but the highest amount of kills by an Australian in WW1 was 47 by Robert A Little and in WWII Clive Caldwell claimed 28 and a half............
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                        bud156
                        • Member since
                          May 2003
                        • From: La Crosse, WI
                        Posted by bud156 on Friday, May 6, 2005 4:10 PM
                        My brother was a crew chief on an A-10, I made a model, my nephew(his son) thought it looked cool and took it for a flight off my deck. He's a curious little kid.Disapprove [V]
                        Mike
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                        Anonymous
                        • Member since
                          November 2005
                        Posted by Anonymous on Friday, May 6, 2005 9:32 PM
                        Mike,

                        I'm afraid to ask...how much overhaul/repairs had to be made after its "maiden flight"?
                        Report Abuse
                        bud156
                        • Member since
                          May 2003
                        • From: La Crosse, WI
                        Posted by bud156 on Saturday, May 7, 2005 11:19 AM
                        Boohoo [BH]lets just say I'm still missing pieces. They say the A-10 is a very rugged plane, able to fly with chunks of wing missing. I guess it's durability doesnt apply for the scale plastic version. The plane was a total loss. Boohoo [BH] It landed on my gravel driveway. and pieces scattered into a small wooded area. ( I lived in the country at the time) And it was painted green. My nephew is well on his way to being an ace, one confirmed air to air, a civilian vehicle, and an enemy submarine.
                        Mike
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                        Anonymous
                        • Member since
                          November 2005
                        Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, May 7, 2005 3:06 PM
                        I hate it when an aircraft has to be stricken from the records early. Sad [:(] My brother did that once when I had just finished HIS, 1/48 F-4J. He decided to launch a football from his room into mine, and WHAMO!...the just finished Phantom became Phantom bits. It took a while to get her back together; even had to remake a rear canopy out of scrap clear styrene.

                        My sympathies...Sleepy [|)]
                        Report Abuse
                        Anonymous
                        • Member since
                          November 2005
                        Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, May 8, 2005 11:19 PM
                        Yeah fellas when stars wars episode one came out i lost a BF 109E in one of my kids lightsaber battles.............
                        Report Abuse
                        Anonymous
                        • Member since
                          November 2005
                        Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, May 8, 2005 11:37 PM
                        OUCH!Dead [xx(]
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                        Anonymous
                        • Member since
                          November 2005
                        Posted by Anonymous on Monday, May 9, 2005 1:08 AM
                        funny enough thats what the kids said when i noticed it brokenThumbs Up [tup]
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                        bud156
                        • Member since
                          May 2003
                        • From: La Crosse, WI
                        Posted by bud156 on Monday, May 9, 2005 8:48 AM
                        It seems that any finished model has a target on it. It's murphy's law, any projectile remotely close to your prize winning model will land right on it. Any other day of the week I'm sure your brother couldn't hit it with a football if he was trying. Another law is any breakable in the hands of a toddler will immediatly be thrown with tremendous force at the nearest hard surface. When my nephew threw my A-10 I got real close to dropping some F-bombs on him, but I bit my tongue. I'll wait until he's older to explain to him what kind of little terror he was.
                        Mike
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                        12
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