Dio building etiquette

castelnuovo wrote:

I hope thats' how you spell it . Anyway, just wandering if there is some guideline as to how much of the dio should be build from scratch and how much you can just buy in a hobby/toy store? I have seen this rural road sceen with a ditch, trees...factory made and ready to display. My Sturmtiger would look good on it but...is it kinda cheeting just to simply buy it? One sure can't built everything from scratch but where do you draw the line? Any thoughts on this?

it comes down to what are you trying to show?   A diorama tells a story.   Some stories are self explanatory.   Some need a sheet of paper with them to explain them.

Putting your tank on a commercially available base,  thats fine.  Does it tell the story you want, or is it just a tank on a base?    What can you add to the base to help tell the story you want?

Most of all remember that it is your model and you are building to please yourself, not one of us.

Given the plethora of commercialy available "dioramic accessories" i.e. trees, buildings, resin cast roadways, walkways, bridges, lamps, fountains, barrels, sandbags, animals etc. I really don't think it matters. The main thing would be to ask yourself the question, does it successfully tell a story? Or is it a "snapshot" of an event? Slot machine layout in the form of a unrelated or ilogical elements laid out haphazardly and without any sense of composition is where a diorama fails in my opinion. And to whom are you building for? If its for yourself, what does it matter? If it is for public display then you are subject to personal aesthethic and opinion of the viewer and again, it does not matter for the viewer will make their own assumption as to its success or failure.

Their should be a cohesiveness of an idea and theme. Why is a corsair parked next to a Renault tank? How you tell that story is more important than the tools and methods you use to get there. If it doesn't make sense then scratch or store bought is immaterial.

castelnuovo wrote:

I hope thats' how you spell it . Anyway, just wandering if there is some guideline as to how much of the dio should be build from scratch and how much you can just buy in a hobby/toy store? I have seen this rural road sceen with a ditch, trees...factory made and ready to display. My Sturmtiger would look good on it but...is it kinda cheeting just to simply buy it? One sure can't built everything from scratch but where do you draw the line? Any thoughts on this?

One sure can't built everything from scratch...

Well, actually, you can, lol...  That's how we did it before there WAS any ready-made stuff... Model Railroaders pioneered the methods and materials many, many years ago, and they're still my "go-to guys" for particularly tough methods conctruction...  The key to it is going "outside the box", meaning outside the hobby shop, to find materials... See my "Marston Matting" technique in here...  The commercial stuff was just barely ok, but made a great starting point to make it from scratch and make it work for YOU, rather than you working for IT..

Although there's nothing wrong with using commercial stuff, it becomes pretty recognizable by other dio-builders, and limits you in many ways that scratchbuilding doesn't.  There's also nothing wrong with taking commercial stuff, cutting it apart, and then reassembling it into your own, either... 

My personal feelings are that plonking a completed model model down on a landscaped base is not a diorama except in the loosest sense...  If the model isn't shown "doing it's thing" or a story-line is lacking, it's just a display... 

As for your "guideline" question, there's no real limit on commercial vs scratch-built, but eventually, you'll want to make the dio work yours and yours alone, and thoroughly stump others in the "How'd he MAKE that?" category...  Suffice to say that, the more stuff that is from your own imagination, the better and more satisfying...

castelnuovo wrote:

...Any thoughts on this?...

Build for yourself.  You're the only one you have to please.

EasyMike wrote:

castelnuovo wrote: ...Any thoughts on this?... Build for yourself.  You're the only one you have to please.

Hans von Hammer wrote:

EasyMike wrote:  castelnuovo wrote: ...Any thoughts on this?... Build for yourself.  You're the only one you have to please. Not if you wanna get better at it and taken seriously...

I have no personal need to be "taken seriously."  It's a hobby; a past time.  I get a little better each build I complete.  I build for myself.

castelnuovo wrote:

I hope thats' how you spell it . Anyway, just wandering if there is some guideline as to how much of the dio should be build from scratch and how much you can just buy in a hobby/toy store? I have seen this rural road sceen with a ditch, trees...factory made and ready to display. My Sturmtiger would look good on it but...is it kinda cheeting just to simply buy it? One sure can't built everything from scratch but where do you draw the line? Any thoughts on this?

In my opnion, if there is also a building, that should be "built' as well,

Generally, for me, the principle elements should be created of your own volition, wheher from a kit or scratch. Some people just don't have the skill though to do some things from scratch though, so a kit is the best option.

I generally feel that the principle elements--vehicles, buildings, and figures MUST be "created". Anything peripheral, like trees and bushes, which play "support roles" can be "bought" and used  "as is".

As others have said, build for yourself & enjoy it.

Some times there seems to be a bit of scale model "snobbery". It isn't just in military modeling, it's present in model railroading & auto/truck modeling as well. What's funny is military modelers think nothing of buying an armor kit & assembling it step by step per the instructions yet they look down on someone who may buy a diorama base or structure kit. :  ) Then again, I'm a dio manufacturer so I may have a bias. :  )

Cheers!

Randy Pepprock

Dioramas Plus

www.dioramasplus.com

EasyMike wrote:

castelnuovo wrote: ...Any thoughts on this?... Build for yourself.  You're the only one you have to please.

EasyMike,

I am building for myself but unless I post it here and ask questions I'll never improve.

Doog, thanks for your comments, I agree.

Her Hans, it is not about being taken seriously, but yes, it is about improvment

Cheers and thanks all....

So, in a "hardcore" diorama does the model itself have to be scratch built as  well as the accessories?

mitsdude wrote:

So, in a "hardcore" diorama does the model itself have to be scratch built as  well as the accessories?

Nope.  Scratchbuilt scale models fall into a genre all their own, anyway...  But regarding scenery and structures, I think it's ok to use commercially-made stuff, but you should at least kit-bash 'em to make them your own and to keep them from being recognizable as commercial products, not to mention that the expense of using the "store-bought" stuff can get ridiculous, fast... If you're anything like me, the model(s) are where my money goes...  The scenery and structures can be scratched for a couple of bucks-worth of material, rather than 30 or 40 or even more... 

For myself, it's all about the uniqueness and the cost... If I've got 30 bucks into a kit, there's no way I'll out the same or more for scenery and structures... Same with figures... I won't spend 15 bucks for a pre-posed resin figure to stand next to a tank when I can grab the razor saw and putty tube and pose 'em doing what I want them to do...  Nobody else will have that figure either... It's the same thing for structures with me...

some pre-made stuff  aka trees are ok, but if your going to use pre-made and pre painted stuff

you ain't a modeler or even an assembler  (and when i say you  i don't mean You )

and we all have had the modeler vs assembler talk before  so we won't go there

My dios are a bit of a mix. I buy buildings, usually Verlinden so far. But then i add my own windows, doors, roof and so on. As for vegitation, the ready made stuff i have seen just doesn't appeal to me. I know some people are die hard scratch builders and thats fine, but thats not for me. As long as you are happy and it tells the story you want, thast the main thing.

 As for other peoples veiws, well they are good in that they can help you improve and make suggestions. At the end of the day i build for myself,a nd if others enjoy it, all the better.

My main gripe is Dios that are not Historacly accurate. Otherwise you might as well put them in the Sci-Fi section.

the doog wrote:

castelnuovo wrote: I hope thats' how you spell it . Anyway, just wandering if there is some guideline as to how much of the dio should be build from scratch and how much you can just buy in a hobby/toy store? I have seen this rural road sceen with a ditch, trees...factory made and ready to display. My Sturmtiger would look good on it but...is it kinda cheeting just to simply buy it? One sure can't built everything from scratch but where do you draw the line? Any thoughts on this? The model--the focal point--should be built by you. A big "NOT!" to diecast "models" in dioramas! I generally feel that the principle elements--vehicles, buildings, and figures MUST be "created". Anything peripheral, like trees and bushes, which play "support roles" can be "bought" and used  "as is".

Doog,

Try building a 1/48 British airfield scene and find a vehicle kit in that scale that would look appropriate.  (when you find one, ley me know will ya...

Wirraway wrote:

the doog wrote:  castelnuovo wrote: I hope thats' how you spell it . Anyway, just wandering if there is some guideline as to how much of the dio should be build from scratch and how much you can just buy in a hobby/toy store? I have seen this rural road sceen with a ditch, trees...factory made and ready to display. My Sturmtiger would look good on it but...is it kinda cheeting just to simply buy it? One sure can't built everything from scratch but where do you draw the line? Any thoughts on this? The model--the focal point--should be built by you. A big "NOT!" to diecast "models" in dioramas! I generally feel that the principle elements--vehicles, buildings, and figures MUST be "created". Anything peripheral, like trees and bushes, which play "support roles" can be "bought" and used  "as is". Doog, Try building a 1/48 British airfield scene and find a vehicle kit in that scale that would look appropriate.  (when you find one, ley me know will ya...

Dunno if it's still around on Ebay or not, but years ago I did Brit fuel bowser kitbash with a 1/48 Bandai Austin 3-ton(K-5?) and a 1/35 Testor's/Italeri water buffalo... Wish I'd kept that one or had pics...

Gonna try it with the Tamiya GMC 2 1/2 ton this time, for a P-61 dio...

the doog wrote:

The model--the focal point--should be built by you. A big "NOT!" to diecast "models" in dioramas! I generally feel that the principle elements--vehicles, buildings, and figures MUST be "created". Anything peripheral, like trees and bushes, which play "support roles" can be "bought" and used  "as is".

Aren't they all supporting actors for the overall point of a diorama, that being the scene? If its an AA gun mounted on a truck hiding under a bridge or in the trees, to me the trees or the bridge have equal billing since the "idea" is the vehicle hiding in what ever setting. Figures are also supporting actors to most dioramas. Unless they are the main characters themselves. I think the importance with dioramas is that the overall scene and the viewers understanding of the intent is most important, how the maker gets there is imaterial. (The movie Valkyrie was an ok film, I think Tom Cruise is a hack actor and should have quit after Risky Business, but the supporting actors in the movie were all much better actors and definately outclassed Cruise, despite the fact that he got top billing, and they in my mind saved the movie. Thus the overall worked regardless of how it got there) Die cast vehicles or stock figures, scratch built or assembled kit all comprise the whole. I think where it becomes dependent on whether or not its a built model is only under some contest rules. The viewers acceptance and possibly the success should be based on the overall "Wow!" factor. Regardelss of how it got there. I will admit that I am more impressed with scratchbuilt or heavily modified pieces than I am with everything being prefinished or bought but I will also admit that I have seen some die cast and pre finished items assembled into a diorama that ellicited a "Wow!"

Doog I know this is not waht you are thinking of, but I think a die-cast can be a valid centre for a diorama, especially if it is extensively modified. Take a look at Chuck Doan's Fordson tractor before and after. Amazing work in anyone's books

The basic premis of a diorama is to tell a story. What you use to achieve your story is secondary to the story. Therefore any mix of scratch, diecast, kit, or prebuilt is acceptable if it contributes to the tale being told. Often the subject matter in construction/agricultural dioramas are limited to scratch built or diecast. When I'm building a dio I use whatever material that is available to tell my story.

 And diecast can be made into supurb models. Chuck's diecast Fordson is a perfect example of what can be achieved by a skilled artist.

Carl

What is the rule for competitions and commercial bases?  Are there guidelines?  What kinds of pre-made bases  (painted or unpainted ) and trees/shrubs are allowed in a contest?

Thanks for your input,

Leddy

Personally, I have nothing against using commercially available buidings or other accessories for dioramas, but I have rarely used them myself. I have a thing about originality, and it seems kind of second-hand to use something designed by someone else. However, if you lack the materials, time or ability to make your own buildings, and what's available will tell the story you're after, then I say go for it. However, I would say making your own buildings or whatever will give you a feeling of accomplishment unlike using a pre-made structure can.

Another problem I have with using commercially available buildings is who's marketing them. Many years ago I went to the IPMS/USA Nationals in Indianapolis, where I met Francios Verlinden. At that time he was just beginning to market his line of hydrocal cast buildings, and was well known for his diorama techniques. He had also at this time published several books. I was one of a group of people talking to him, and one of the other modelers asked him a question. He got a look of disdain, waved his hand and said "Read my books." In contrast, I also met Sheperd Paine, who was one of the most personable people I've ever met. He was helpful, offering advise to anyone who asked. Needless to say, I have never bought any of Verlinden's buildings, books or accessories. I felt if he had no desire to help those from whom he was making his money, he didn't deserve any of my money.  

So it's up to you. Making buildings is not difficult, just time-consuming. And I will tell you if you plan to compete, making your own buildings will go a lot farther with judges than filling your space with buildings bought over the counter, and which might also show up in a few other dioramas on the same contest table.

Leddy wrote:

What is the rule for competitions and commercial bases?  Are there guidelines?  What kinds of pre-made bases  (painted or unpainted ) and trees/shrubs are allowed in a contest? Thanks for your input, Leddy

I never heard of any "rules" as such anywhere... The only rule I have is about using commercail stuff, which is "Don't-unless there's no other way"..

Were I to use any commercial stuff, the first thing I'd have to do is make it look like it isn't a "store-bought" item...  So why bother.. It's like the numbers of figures sets are getting larger and larger, but even so, it's still better to kitbash your figures into your own poses simply because, no matter what set you choose, somebody will come up to you and say, "I used that same set of figures on my last diorama, only mine were over here and..."

Same thing with buildings and such... Unless it's a building that's supposed to instantly recognizable, like the White House or Reichstag, vague is much better... If you are going to go with commercial buildngs, buy several and cut 'em apart and reassemble them to your own design...

Anyway, if you lock yourself into pre-fab, you're locking yourself into a space that very well may not enough to convey your story effectively and turn a great dio idea into turkey...   I know that there's some great display bases out there, but there're very few great diorama bases out in the pre-fab world...