dio idea, need opinions

I have a diagram somewhere, a little peeved I can't find it right now. It's a somewhat complicated structure. The turm itself is a couple of stories deep, with a power unit, it's fuel tank, batteries and a small bunk area, plus stacks for in and out air. Then there's a deep trench going off some distance with a right angle turn to the ammo storage bunker and long term supply stash. maybe a dozen meters off. Guess the guys probably slept topside in a tent when there was no action. And these set ups only saw action once, so there wouldn't be a lot of other resources around it unless they were part of the immediate action and had fallen back on it as a tactical strong point. Which is a definite possibility.

Well we got moved. Been unpacking since last weekend. Found my copy of German Defences in Italy in World War II from Osprey. Plenty of good reference on the Panther turret emplacements. Hopefully I can get started back building soon

Wanted to thank all those that replied with all of the helpful advice. Its getting close to time to move into our rebuilt house so I may not do much more to this other than what I have already. I will try to take a few pics of the progress before I pack it up

bbrowniii

Found this pic (hope the link works). Thought you all would find the cammo interesting:

Did anybody else happen to notice that it appears the inside of the hatch is painted... oh dear Lord! WHITE??!!

OH THE HUMANITY....

Check out this link....http://www.krawa.info/Museen/Pantherturm/pantherturm.html , It has an exploded view drawing that looks cool.

16 x 16 is pretty big...  Given the size of the Pantherturm and an AT gun, that leaves a lot of open space to fill, although the trench-system would take up some...  Might wanna mock 'em up and test the layout size first...  Couple sheets of notebook paper will work for the base mock-up...

Hans

I havent started on the base yet but I was thinking that a base of around 16" x 16" or 20" x 16" would be perfect for displaying. Planning on using styrofoam to build the base up to the proper depth then use model railroad products to do the ground work.

What's your base-size and what does the terrain look like?

Thanks for all of the advice guys. still unsure how I want to proceed with this. I have the turret built and have scratch built an armored box emplacement. I guess my original idea here was to portray the static defences of the Winter Line/Gustav Line in Italy during WWII

I wouldn't either, but he seemed to want to use both kits... But yeah, an AT gun position in close proximity to the Pantherturm would negate it's "surpise" element....  Of course, so will the first round fired, lol...  It would also serve an object lesson of what happens when there are inexperienced O's around, situating the defenses...

We had this Cherry "Two El-tee" once upon a time, that we Senior NCOs dubbed "Lieutenant Big-Picture"... He would constantly "drop in" his advice according to the "Big Picture" he saw at Battalion...  Well, situating the Company Defenses is the First Sergeant's job, not a 22-year old platoon leader's...

Anyway, he always got so wrapped up the minutia that we'd end up getting attacked before we even got a weapon emplaced....  Luckily, we were attacked by the OPFOR in Ft Irwin, CA and not REAL bad guys..  This is also the same guy that used a "lanyard" (about a three-foot piece of rappeling rope) to secure his rifle to his web gear... That doesn't exactly instill confidence in your men if you need a dummy cord to keep your weapon at hand...

Last I heard he'd changed branches and become a Supply Officer for a Transportation Battalion, with a stern advocation from the BC that an Infantry Company wasn't the best place for his continued career developement as an officer.....

I would think that a Patherturm would be more accurately situated in a position that would offer it the advantage and benefit of surprise due to its small size and relatively low height. . Situating another gun and trenches, etc, with it would seem to negate that advantage.

Personally, I wouldn't put it in a trench system with other guns around.

Cleverly disguised as a wood-burning pizza oven.

And a few on the way to the 'front'...

Found this pic (hope the link works). Thought you all would find the cammo interesting:

Hans von Hammer

There were also a few  Panthers dug into the streets on the Ostfront, Brownie... 

Right... but that particular photo was a pantherturm. I also thought the OP was interested in a pantherturm as opposed to a dug in tank.

There were also a few  Panthers dug into the streets on the Ostfront, Brownie...  Dead as tanks go (mobility-kills), but with live fire-control systems and main guns... They'd dig a trench, haul it into place in hull-defilade, back-fill it, and leave the crew to their fates... Since they'd no become a "fort", they were under Hitler's direct orders to defend at all costs then...

Almost the same doctrine as Ivan's tankers... "Can't move, become a pillbox, can't shoot, become a martyr..."

Bocks Suv

That top pic is scary.  A tank dug into a civilian street?

Not a tank, really... just the business end of it, mounted on a concrete pillbox dug into the street. Still, I get your point.

If you're interested in pantherturms, this link has some pretty good info:

http://worldwartwozone.com/forums/index.php?/topic/10149-panzerstellungspantherturms/

That top pic is scary.  A tank dug into a civilian street? An iconic image of the brutality, extremes and ugliness of war and combat. We build military models, most of us not realizing the daily terror front line troops, airmen and sailors faced.  These machines had one mission.  I don't mean to be preachy, but this casual pic puts fighting equipment in the proper light.      

If you do a google search for 'Pantherturm', you'll find a lot of pictures, both of actual emplacements, as well as other modelers builds. From what I understand about these emplacements, they did not tend to be a part of elaborate fortifications (such as your idea about trenches and MGs and AT guns), so I think  that, if you are concerned about historical accuracy you might want to plan on building the pantherturm all by itself.

I saw some of these on a History Channel (Canada) special, focusing on the Canadian units' run up through Italy & thought it would make an interesting diorama. Let us know how it turns out!

modelbuilder

Thanks for the advice everyone and thanks for the pics Hans. Wish I could find my Osprey book, German Defences in Italy...

This link may provide some help for you on future projects if the Italian Campaign and Panzernests're your gig..

http://italy1943-45.devhub.com/blog/642933-mg-panzernest/

I agree with all the replies. One of the nice things about this hobby is you do not have to be dead-on precise if you do not wish to. A good build consists of your abilities and imagination.

Best of luck with the project and be sure to post some pics!

Bill

Thanks for the advice everyone and thanks for the pics Hans. Wish I could find my Osprey book, German Defences in Italy, its got a whole section on Panther turret bunkers. I cant find anything since this move. Hopefully once we are back in the house and the hobby room re done it will show up. Anyway Ive got the turret assembled and have scratch built an "armored box" for the emplacement. will get some pics up later.

Couple more pics..

modelbuilder

I am thinking of building an emplaced Panther turret... Was mulling over setting it in Italy with a Panzernest on one side and an AT gun on the other. There would be trenches conecting them. What do you guys think?

What I think is unimportant, but I'll happily add a couple a' pfennigs-worth, since you asked for thoughts on the matter...

 An entrenched AT gun-emplacement would increase the likelyhood of any counter-fire... But at the same time, it would also increase the "drama" of the scene, by making it busier, but still-yet "uncrowded"...  

The OP shown above could easily show a trench... With a communications trench running to the right, and slightly to the rear, you've got a pretty good emplacement that's gonna show how NOT to do it, while still "allowing" it to happen, probably at the hands of an inexperienced officer and crew, which was an all-too-often occourance by this stage of the Italian Campaign, late June/early July, 1944...

As already mentioned, build it whatever way makes you happy. But if you want to be historically accurate, photos seem to show these emplacements on there own. They may have had some supprot at a distance, but nothing seems to have been placed close to them. An AT gun may well get in the way of the turret traverse apart from from anything else.

Would be great to see this being built, how ever you decide to go.

I've learned that spare parts do not a free project make.  The other post was right, build what you like, and how you like it...perfect, gluey mess, painted pink ...whatever. But dont let it drive you nuts looking for the perfect part, decals or paints. That's when  a spare part becomes a huge pain in the stern.  Don't be afraid to move on. Good luck. 

Have at it.  Build what you want.  What we think doesn't amount to anything.