Diorama "Leave No One Behind"

Gee, you guys are going soft. You'll be getting all teary and having a group hug next.

Call me a cynic (you wouldn't be the first) and i don't know the history to it, but that story about MM and AI has the stench of BS all over it. I can't believe anyone would come out with a such a story if it were true. Sounds more like a fairytale to get a response to me.

MM, Keep the photos coming by all means, but spare us the fantasies.

SteveM wrote:

the doog wrote: So in the end, I apologize, Model Master, for "projecting my ideals" on to you, and for acting somewhat like a "schoolyard bully", Doog- if you feel singled out by me, then I apologize. Wasn't intended. Steve

I appreciate your sentiments though--but no offense taken!

the doog wrote:

So in the end, I apologize, Model Master, for "projecting my ideals" on to you, and for acting somewhat like a "schoolyard bully",

Doog- if you feel singled out by me, then I apologize. Wasn't intended.

Steve

the doog wrote:

Model Master, as one who has been rather unrelenting in my criticism, perhaps I share a greater burden of responsibility for the ire directed at you recently in this forum. I will say that I read your last post here with a good deal of interest, and re-read it a few times before thinking about how to respond. If what you say is really the whole truth, then I feel that I owe you an apology. I will do so here publicly, as I have criticized you publicly. I confess that, while I do not either understand or completely agree with your employment of AI, that you seem to be nonetheless motivated by something resembling altruism or charity. Imperfect altruism or charity to be sure, but I guess that this is better than simply perfect greed. You seem to me to have offered a flawed-but-reasonable alternative to AI for achieving his dreams---while achieving your dream of a massive model collection in the same way. Wowever, having said that, I COMPLETELY AGREE that, now that the "building" and "displaying" is becoming a problem in itself, you can NOT simply "turn out" AI to "find another job"! For in truth, YOU would STILL have your "dream collection" (which has brought you fame and notoriety), but poor AI will now be destitute if unable to  make ends meet; and I agree that, in a sense, you may have taken from him the sheer joy of building models--something that might not be undone! You owe him that respect! Several of the people responding here have offered very good suggestions, which I will echo, and offer some of my own. You most definitely should sell off some recent builds, or older ones that may not meet current standards. Judging from what you've said, the collectors market there seems to be thriving. This would make more room for you and enable AI to continue his employment. Additionally, Steve has made an excellent reccomendation--why not pay AI more money for an individual build? Since display space is a problem now, the ability for AI to make the same money for less builds would actually serve you both. AI's profit would be increased because he wouldn't have to spend as much on building/finishing supplies. You would get better models and not fill up yourspace so quickly. That works for you both! I would also urge you to arrange some sort of "publicity campaign" for both AI and Tuk. You said that you have a certain degree of notoriety and fame because of your huge collection--because of AI's and Tuk's work. SO if you can foresee the day when their services might not be needed by you, why not give them their well-deserved credit, which, in turn, would undoubtedly open up new doors of employment for them--something they've certainly earned the right to, at this point! I'm sure they would appreciate this almost as much as if you had forgiven them their debts! If there is any grim satisfaction to be found on my behalf, it is that I believe I had "nailed" the reason why AI's builds never seem to improve--alas, he was motivated simply by a "deadline", not by love of the hobby, nor by personal investment. Cold comfort for me, really, but worth noting.... So in the end, I apologize, Model Master, for "projecting my ideals" on to you, and for acting somewhat like a "schoolyard bully", Yes, I am somewhat perturbed that you seem to have no interest in "hanging out with us on the playground". But perhapsI should just be grateful for the true and real friends I DO have here on this wonderful site. I also agree with Arty that it would be great to see more of your fine builds. I have "searched" your name, and have seen your work; it is worthy of posting, and you should be proud of it.  My apologies. I shall not again sullly your posts with inappropriate comments. What others do is their freedom, but I shall not join the fray. That is not to say I will not concur, or criticize with good intention, but I will try to take a "higher road" in the future. Peace...

Model Master, as one who has been rather unrelenting in my criticism, perhaps I share a greater burden of responsibility for the ire directed at you recently in this forum. I will say that I read your last post here with a good deal of interest, and re-read it a few times before thinking about how to respond.

If what you say is really the whole truth, then I feel that I owe you an apology. I will do so here publicly, as I have criticized you publicly. I confess that, while I do not either understand or completely agree with your employment of AI, that you seem to be nonetheless motivated by something resembling altruism or charity. Imperfect altruism or charity to be sure, but I guess that this is better than simply perfect greed.

You seem to me to have offered a flawed-but-reasonable alternative to AI for achieving his dreams---while achieving your dream of a massive model collection in the same way. Wowever, having said that, I COMPLETELY AGREE that, now that the "building" and "displaying" is becoming a problem in itself, you can NOT simply "turn out" AI to "find another job"! For in truth, YOU would STILL have your "dream collection" (which has brought you fame and notoriety), but poor AI will now be destitute if unable to  make ends meet; and I agree that, in a sense, you may have taken from him the sheer joy of building models--something that might not be undone! You owe him that respect!

Several of the people responding here have offered very good suggestions, which I will echo, and offer some of my own. You most definitely should sell off some recent builds, or older ones that may not meet current standards. Judging from what you've said, the collectors market there seems to be thriving. This would make more room for you and enable AI to continue his employment.

Additionally, Steve has made an excellent reccomendation--why not pay AI more money for an individual build? Since display space is a problem now, the ability for AI to make the same money for less builds would actually serve you both. AI's profit would be increased because he wouldn't have to spend as much on building/finishing supplies. You would get better models and not fill up yourspace so quickly. That works for you both!

I would also urge you to arrange some sort of "publicity campaign" for both AI and Tuk. You said that you have a certain degree of notoriety and fame because of your huge collection--because of AI's and Tuk's work. SO if you can foresee the day when their services might not be needed by you, why not give them their well-deserved credit, which, in turn, would undoubtedly open up new doors of employment for them--something they've certainly earned the right to, at this point! I'm sure they would appreciate this almost as much as if you had forgiven them their debts!

If there is any grim satisfaction to be found on my behalf, it is that I believe I had "nailed" the reason why AI's builds never seem to improve--alas, he was motivated simply by a "deadline", not by love of the hobby, nor by personal investment. Cold comfort for me, really, but worth noting....

So in the end, I apologize, Model Master, for "projecting my ideals" on to you, and for acting somewhat like a "schoolyard bully", Yes, I am somewhat perturbed that you seem to have no interest in "hanging out with us on the playground". But perhapsI should just be grateful for the true and real friends I DO have here on this wonderful site. I also agree with Arty that it would be great to see more of your fine builds. I have "searched" your name, and have seen your work; it is worthy of posting, and you should be proud of it. 

My apologies. I shall not again sullly your posts with inappropriate comments. What others do is their freedom, but I shall not join the fray. That is not to say I will not concur, or criticize with good intention, but I will try to take a "higher road" in the future. Peace...

zokissima wrote:

In all honesty, I would have never thought to see this kind of thread yet again here, but just goes to show that most of you are still just grumpy old men As for the thread, all I can say is directed towards Model Maniac. This is a modelling site. You should really have just kept your mouth shut about your financial dealings. I understand why, and I have no problems with it. However, I fear you've only added fuel to the fire burning oh so brightly beneath you allready. Don't air your dirty laundry here man, its just not the way to go about this...   Also, you show absolutely NO respect to AI for posting HIS financial dealings on a public forum.

Boomerang wrote:

Model Maniac wrote:  .......I'm no perfectionist and I'm not so demanding. Anything he does is in anyway far better than I could achieve myself......     Model Maniac, i have been watching your last few posts with interest. I have my opinions, and i agree and disagree with all that has been said. To cut a long story short, because it has all been said anyway, i know where the frustration of others is coming from, i feel it too, but i am not a great modeler myself so i don't have a right to say too much. It is good of you to post an apology........i just hope we all are civil enough to accept it.   What i really wanted to say, using your quote above, is that a while back you posted some of your own work. Really Model Maniac, it wasn't that bad. If you really want to have some fun here and get into the spirit of things, why don't you put some of your work back up or start another one, and build and learn for yourself. You can read english fine. Why don't you join the 'gang' here, build your own dio, let us 'rip it apart' and then apply yourself to making it better. It is a lot of fun and very rewarding. I am sure you would enjoy yourself and may earn some respect (if those are the right words) also.....   I am not saying stop what you are doing with AI and TUK, go ahead, build up your dream collection..........what i am saying is join us here with something of your own, and get into the spirit of this forum. Since i have found these forums i have enjoyed building my models more than ever.....   It is not that hard............   Boomer...

In all honesty, I would have never thought to see this kind of thread yet again here, but just goes to show that most of you are still just grumpy old men

As for the thread, all I can say is directed towards Model Maniac. This is a modelling site. You should really have just kept your mouth shut about your financial dealings. I understand why, and I have no problems with it. However, I fear you've only added fuel to the fire burning oh so brightly beneath you allready. Don't air your dirty laundry here man, its just not the way to go about this...

Also, you show absolutely NO respect to AI for posting HIS financial dealings on a public forum.

But what I do mind is the sad-story explainations as if there was nothing that could be done, the excuses for why the builds are rushed. People have offered you a way out for a long time now. The obsession over kits is yours- takes one to know one. The only tragedy is that I see is that AI will probably never want to look at another model box or tube of glue once he has settled his debt.

  I agree with Steve fully.  I never really understood and still don't your arrangement with AI to pay the loan back.  Why?  Sorry, but he needs to get a job and support himself and his family, his brother too.  I also agree that you should build some more of your own models and post them here.  You were well received when you showed them before.  If you continue to  build them, you will improve as well.  Doing things slowly and having a smaller collection of well-made models that you made yourself seems much better to me than the current way things are going.   

Model Maniac wrote:

He has to build a dozen pieces a month in order to get around $450 from me.

$450 / 12 = $37.50 per model / diorama? MM, that's Thai-way robbery.

"The problem is that it can't go on forever like this, may be not even one more year,
because I'm running out of space fast. Most display cases are full or near full, and
there's no more space to place new ones, except a few on top of the existing ones,
not to mention the space to build another showroom."

May I offer a suggestion? Commission half the amount of builds, pay him twice the money for each. Then AI:

-has more time to research

-has more time to build correctly, think out dio composition

-maybe has time to himself to pick up a part time job 

And YOU: 

-aquire built models of a higher quality

-perhaps shed some of the negative feedback per post

-don't run out of display space so quickly

-don't have to build a second museum 

Both of you benefit. He gets better and you still get paid off.  

At a payrate of $37.50 per model from you, he has a better shot at selling them for more than that on eBay. He would be able to pay you off faster. How about selling off some of the older ones to make room? Split the money 50/50, put his share towards his debt. You have already earned the recognition locally as a collector. What more do you need?

I don't mind you posting his work. I don't care that AI and Tuk don't get the feedback. It doesn't bother me that you no longer show us your own builds, although I liked it when you did. I don't even care that you don't participate in other people's posts. Reciprocating is not a requirement for this forum, last I checked. That's merely other people projecting their ideals onto you. It may explain why they are so harsh, but that's their problem- not yours. This forum is what you make of it, whether you want it to be a "community" or simply a public bulletin board. It's your forum, too.

But what I do mind is the sad-story explainations as if there was nothing that could be done, the excuses for why the builds are rushed. People have offered you a way out for a long time now. The obsession over kits is yours- takes one to know one. The only tragedy is that I see is that AI will probably never want to look at another model box or tube of glue once he has settled his debt.

Steve 

Model Maniac wrote:

.......I'm no perfectionist and I'm not so demanding. Anything he does is in anyway far better than I could achieve myself......

  Model Maniac, i have been watching your last few posts with interest. I have my opinions, and i agree and disagree with all that has been said. To cut a long story short, because it has all been said anyway, i know where the frustration of others is coming from, i feel it too, but i am not a great modeler myself so i don't have a right to say too much. It is good of you to post an apology........i just hope we all are civil enough to accept it.

  What i really wanted to say, using your quote above, is that a while back you posted some of your own work. Really Model Maniac, it wasn't that bad. If you really want to have some fun here and get into the spirit of things, why don't you put some of your work back up or start another one, and build and learn for yourself. You can read english fine. Why don't you join the 'gang' here, build your own dio, let us 'rip it apart' and then apply yourself to making it better. It is a lot of fun and very rewarding. I am sure you would enjoy yourself and may earn some respect (if those are the right words) also.....

  I am not saying stop what you are doing with AI and TUK, go ahead, build up your dream collection..........what i am saying is join us here with something of your own, and get into the spirit of this forum. Since i have found these forums i have enjoyed building my models more than ever.....

  It is not that hard............

  Boomer...

I'm sorry for my harsh reply in the previous diorama "Soviet AT Team". It seemed that my
cover had been blown off and I acted out of rage. This will not happen again, I promise.

As for this new diorama, I knew the minute I saw it that the TC doesn't fit in there. It
was not planned for, i.e. it did not come with the kit and I did not supply it. AI added
one from his stray figures and it doesn't even have a helmet. I did not tell him that it
doesn't fit the scene, seeing that he had good intention in doing so. I don't want to
discourage him from doing 'extra' work. I'm not blaming him, just telling about the TC
origin. Not knowing about the fitness, he's done nothing wrong. I could have taken out
the TC and closed the hatches but I didn't because, as I said earlier, I'm not so serious
about them. I'm no perfectionist and I'm not so demanding. Anything he does is in anyway
far better than I could achieve myself. May I explain this scene just for fun?

The TC was listening to his MP3 player and just poped out of the hatches, not knowing
what's going on, so he looked dazed. Is that plausible? I read this from another site
and I think it's funny.

AI had been renting a house all his life, having no house of his own. He didn't have
the credit to borrow from the bank (he has no payslip and his wife who's been a school
teacher for more than 10 years earns less than $200 a month) so he asked me to borrow
from a bank to buy a townhouse for him which he'll pay the monthly installments for 10
years. Wanting to help him, I got myself into trouble. He failed to pay several times and
the bank followed up on me. I had to lend him to pay for the bank's 2 months installments
this year. The bank loan was made in mid 2006 and since then he quitted his other job
as schoolvan driver of which the salary was unbelievebly low, i.e., less than $150
a month despite huge responsibility for children's lives, and took modeling jobs full
time. He has to pay $370 monthly installments and he has a son who's still studying.
It's hard to imagine how he could make ends meet. He has to build a dozen pieces a month
in order to get around $450 from me.

Early this year he asked me to give some jobs to his brother "Tuk". Tuk's main job is
a motorcycle-taxi driver with a dependent wife who has no occupation and two young
children. I gave him jobs and so far this year he has finished 56 pieces and is working
on #57-60 (AI finished 92 during the same period and is working on six more). He has done
very well, most of his jobs have been satisfactory, especially the last batch of 1:350
warships. I believe my monetary contribution has eased his financial hardship as well as
AI's.

The problem is that it can't go on forever like this, may be not even one more year,
because I'm running out of space fast. Most display cases are full or near full, and
there's no more space to place new ones, except a few on top of the existing ones,
not to mention the space to build another showroom. I think I'll have to tell them
soon that there is this problem, and that they should look for other jobs to compensate
for the lost income from me. If possible, I'll help find new commissioners for them.
If I had a business, I could put them in some positions. But I'm just a salaryman
working as a government employee.

Well, that's about me and my modelers, for your information and understanding.

PS. The guy at the back is not throwing the grenade at his friends, may be this picture
can tell the correct angle:

ajlafleche wrote:

bbrowniii wrote:   What will be interesting to see the response when 'he who must not be named' posts his next dio...  WHAT?! Cthulu, Yog Sototh or Nyarlthotep is going to post?

LMAO

bbrowniii wrote:

What will be interesting to see the response when 'he who must not be named' posts his next dio...

WHAT?! Cthulu, Yog Sototh or Nyarlthotep is going to post?

Buddho wrote:

I humbly surrender

Lol...

the doog wrote:

Buddho wrote: Can a moderator please lock this thread? Whoever is in charge of these forums need to to take charge and stop allowing its members to attack their own. Please do something! Bhuddo, with all due respect to your sensitivities on this subject, if you were upset by Gino's post there, I don't thnk he was attacking MM--he was simply replying to Custom 56 in what I believe was a neutral and appropriate manner, explaining to him WHY the harsh criticism leveled at MM would not necessarily apply to Custom's work. I believe that the initial question was certainly understandable, and the response was, as well. Custom 56 might well understandably have trepidation about posting his work after reading some of the comments directed at MM, but Gino's response was not an attack, IMHO. If you truly feel that there is something inappropriate in this thread, report it as "abuse". But I believe after the last "MM" post was locked, I would have to think that the moderators are keeping a close eye on the currently open "MM" ones, and I don't believe that this one has taken a turn for the worse, especially after it was already "flagged" by Aaron....just my ...

I'm gonna have to agree with the doog on this one.  Things were starting to spin out of control there for a little bit, but once Aaron put the smackdown on us, it seems like things have mellowed.  I too get a little uncomfortable when comments directed against anyone get to be overly harsh, but I don't see that here.  What will be interesting to see the response when 'he who must not be named' posts his next dio...  But I am confident that cooler heads will prevail

Buddho wrote:

Can a moderator please lock this thread? Whoever is in charge of these forums need to to take charge and stop allowing its members to attack their own. Please do something!

Custom 56 might well understandably have trepidation about posting his work after reading some of the comments directed at MM, but Gino's response was not an attack, IMHO. If you truly feel that there is something inappropriate in this thread, report it as "abuse". But I believe after the last "MM" post was locked, I would have to think that the moderators are keeping a close eye on the currently open "MM" ones, and I don't believe that this one has taken a turn for the worse, especially after it was already "flagged" by Aaron....just my ...

Custom 56 F-100 wrote:

I don't really have a clear picture of what has transpired in the past between MM and the other members here, however, I am looking forward to building my first diorama when I feel I have gained a decent skill level and I am worried that I am going to get it from both barrels if I post pics of it here! Is that true or do y'all go a bit lighter on beginners?? (hope so!!!)

Don't worry, you have nothing to fear.  You already have a couple things going for you that MM does not.  First, you are actually building the models and dios, not just buying them already built.  Secondly, you have already said you are looking for constructive criticism and pointers on how to make them better, not just looking for praise and to be told that they are great. We are looking forward to seeing your builds and helping you improve. 

Custom 56 F-100 wrote:

I don't really have a clear picture of what has transpired in the past between MM and the other members here, however, I am looking forward to building my first diorama when I feel I have gained a decent skill level and I am worried that I am going to get it from both barrels if I post pics of it here! Is that true or do y'all go a bit lighter on beginners?? (hope so!!!)

Put that whole thing out of your mind. I've got my first dio to post in a couple of days and I'm confident I'll get nothing but constructive critism, and lots of it. It'll be the same for you.

Custom 56 F-100 wrote:

I don't really have a clear picture of what has transpired in the past between MM and the other members here, however, I am looking forward to building my first diorama when I feel I have gained a decent skill level and I am worried that I am going to get it from both barrels if I post pics of it here! Is that true or do y'all go a bit lighter on beginners?? (hope so!!!)

Looking forward to seeing it!

Custom 56 F-100 wrote:

I don't really have a clear picture of what has transpired in the past between MM and the other members here, however, I am looking forward to building my first diorama when I feel I have gained a decent skill level and I am worried that I am going to get it from both barrels if I post pics of it here! Is that true or do y'all go a bit lighter on beginners?? (hope so!!!)

Well, go ahead bro, build your first diorama and make your day!! dont be afraid of carpet bombing style of criticism's..if you feel you have gained a decent skill in building one go for it and post your works...always remember nobodys perfect, if somebody find your work a masterpiece, someone will find the boots and shoe string of your figure inaccurate and youll receive --> for making the boots innacurrate ....but dont forget all of the suggestions and criticism youve earned im sure it will make you a better modeler and bear in mind someone is always better than you even you got thousand's or gazillion's  of first place award...someone is better than you..

Hope to see your works posted at finescale.com

Technically smoke grenades provide concealment, but not cover.    Same thing to me " border="0" width="15" height="15" />

The difference is that cover will actually stop bullets and provide a level of protection.  Concealment only hides you from view and provides no level of protection from bullets or shrapnel.  Being behind cover is always better than being concealed.

Hope that helps. 

bbrowniii wrote:

Hermesminiatures wrote: Tankluver - that's a smoke grenade - used for creating cover.   Technically smoke grenades provide concealment, but not cover.  Not to split hairs or anything...

Same thing to me Looks like we just can't comment on these anymore... I think some of us come here just to argue I'll just stop lookin' in the dio section.

Hermesminiatures wrote:

Tankluver - that's a smoke grenade - used for creating cover.

Technically smoke grenades provide concealment, but not cover.  Not to split hairs or anything...

Praise the Lord, and pass the ammunition, we're saved!  Thanks, Aaron.

Don't worry folks, if you missed the show, there'll be another, same time, same place next week. (There always is...)