Diorama "Battle of Hue 1968"

Many thanks for all kind comments on the dio!

Most of the time AI built armors and dioramas OOB, but for this one he added something. If built OOB, you can't should the back side because it's dead flat like a concrete wall. I agree that Hobby Fan made a mistake with the hinges, they should be inside not outside. The following link shows the unbuilt part of this kit and some other kits from Hobby Fan and Legend:

http://www.pantown.com/board.php?id=428&area=4&name=board14&topic=234&action=view 

I bought this kit and another one (Get the hell out of here) from the guy who posted.

EDITED

*sigh* nevermind...

   I like this small viginette. I think it captures the danger of Vietnam and all it's unexpected booby traps. Maybe these guys are new to the war and are about to learn the hard way. They obviously were not listening to the valuable advice given to new arivals....

   These Hobby Fan figures look good. Has anybody else used them? They look good. (sadly, that is the downside to MM's posts. can never get much info on the builds)

   Boomer...

redleg12 wrote:

OK...Let me clarify  Repeat Over I agree this is the WWW and all have a right to post. We all post our builds here as I said to get comments, good or BAD. By posting here we have to be willing to accept both (done tastefully). Some of the members on this forum have backgrounds or study an area and are able to give details about particuar builds in an effort to help the builder learn and make a more accurate model. I served during the 70s through the 90s and served with and commanded many VN war vets therefore I have a background of the US military during this particular era.The comments I posted on the inaccuracy of this build I would have made to anyone who posted it.In an attempt to help them learn. If some of the people on this forum I personally consider master modelers such as Doog, Biffa and yes Heavy (don't get a big head) posted this build, I would have made the same comments. I would expect the same from them if I posted a build within their area of expertise. There have been times where I was happy with a build and items were pointed out to me. I did not get upset, I just wanted to build better on the next go around. These comments did not take away from the fun I had with the build nor my pleasure of that particular build. My main problem is from the standpoint of being a "professional build". If the man makes a living from the build then to some extent I guess it is his profession. But there is a difference between a professional painter who paints you house and a professional painter who's work is hung in a museum. I personally don.t like his work and as you said this is the WWW. If you post it they will come, both sides. You have to be ready for it. If MM likes it, for him thats all that counts. As far as e-bay...no one is a "professional". Everyone is just trying to make a buck. If someone is willing to pay for someone else's work, good or bad, more power to him. Lastly, many on this forum, especially some of the young modelers keep some of these threads as background material. I point out the problems so the can look and learn. I think the horse is dead on this one.  Rounds Complete!! Repeat Out

You know when I made the post about the little inaccuraceys I saw in the diorama, I felt a little guilty for just plain nitpicking. I could have gone into it much deeper, but left it alone. I think if he'd posted it as something in Siagon or Hoi An, I might have much more acceptted it. Lets put it to bed.

gary  

OK...Let me clarify  Repeat Over

I agree this is the WWW and all have a right to post. We all post our builds here as I said to get comments, good or BAD. By posting here we have to be willing to accept both (done tastefully). Some of the members on this forum have backgrounds or study an area and are able to give details about particuar builds in an effort to help the builder learn and make a more accurate model.

I served during the 70s through the 90s and served with and commanded many VN war vets therefore I have a background of the US military during this particular era.The comments I posted on the inaccuracy of this build I would have made to anyone who posted it.In an attempt to help them learn. If some of the people on this forum I personally consider master modelers such as Doog, Biffa and yes Heavy (don't get a big head) posted this build, I would have made the same comments. I would expect the same from them if I posted a build within their area of expertise.

There have been times where I was happy with a build and items were pointed out to me. I did not get upset, I just wanted to build better on the next go around. These comments did not take away from the fun I had with the build nor my pleasure of that particular build.

My main problem is from the standpoint of being a "professional build". If the man makes a living from the build then to some extent I guess it is his profession. But there is a difference between a professional painter who paints you house and a professional painter who's work is hung in a museum. I personally don.t like his work and as you said this is the WWW. If you post it they will come, both sides. You have to be ready for it. If MM likes it, for him thats all that counts.

As far as e-bay...no one is a "professional". Everyone is just trying to make a buck. If someone is willing to pay for someone else's work, good or bad, more power to him.

Lastly, many on this forum, especially some of the young modelers keep some of these threads as background material. I point out the problems so the can look and learn.

I think the horse is dead on this one. 

Rounds Complete!!

Repeat Out 

By the quality of his work, I don't consider him a professional either, nor do I truly consider most of the eBay "Pro-Builders" to be true professionals.

1 a: the marketplace or public place of an ancient Roman city forming the center of judicial and public business b: a public meeting place for open discussion c: a medium (as a newspaper or online service) of open discussion or expression of ideas2: a judicial body or assembly : court3 a: a public meeting or lecture involving audience discussion b: a program (as on radio or television) involving discussion of a problem usually by several authorities

With thanks to Webster.

I'm a little tired of being criticized for criticism. This is the www. Unless there is a violation of the FSM Policies, i.e. rants, personal attacks etc. I do not intend to pay attention to people telling others what they should or should not say. Sure. go ahead and do it, but I for one do not care. Criticize my models, fine, criticize me, go blow.

The MM phenomenon, if I may, has to do with fairly emotional responses to really bad models, in general. If there is a herd mentality, I've missed it. If there are "anti-attaboys" count the votes.

The Hue model pulled up quite a few interesting facts from people familiar with that battle. That made me keep coming back to read.

Who said AI was a professional modeller?

MM does.  He has stated many times that AI's sole income is from his model building.  He is a professional builder in the eyes of MM and that is how he bills him.  He is also a professional by the broadest definition, "one who is engaging in as a profession or means of livelihood."  By the quality of his work, I don't consider him a professional either, nor do I truly consider most of the eBay "Pro-Builders" to be true professionals.

We can continue to banter back and forth, but the basic problem is we disagree and will never agree on this issue.  We simply see the issue in two different lights.  The best we can do is agree to disagree.

redleg12 wrote:

A professional model make does NOT do OOB.

If I'm paying a "proffesional" model maker to build me an OOB model for my own personal museum, he better because I'm paying. MM is paying for those inaccurate models and sometimes poorly build and his happy with it. End of story. 

I agree that that many of his dioramas and models are to be approach with caution if you are into accuracy. I admit some of the things in the dio are very good like the snow, water, rubbles, paint job, figures...etc. 

I don't think AI is a proffesional modeler anyway. Have you seen some of the "pro built" on eBay?

Who said AI was a professional modeller?

I for one dont see him as one. He is like most of us..but the difference is that he gets paid. But that doesnt put him in the ranks of professional modelers.

Can he do better? Sure he can. Do your critiques reach him? I seriously doubt it.

So...the only ones who read your criticisms are you who post them. So why waste the time?

Do I defend mediocre work? Sure I do....only because if that is the best one can do than why punish him or her for it? And if the buyer is content with that work, then he is happy, and that is all that matters. The rest of us do not figure into this equation.

AHH...Another bar room discussion 

I have to agree with Heavy.   FFE

Most of us here on the fourms are not professional model makers. If we build a kit, do our research and in the end it is 95% correct, looks good and we are happy (and had fun) thats what counts. The problem here is AI is represented as a professional model maker. A professional model make does NOT do OOB. If he is doing a historical model he is expected to:

1. Have his build look like museum quality and

2. The build should technically correct

This build though good looking is neither. Many of us show our works, make comments, share methods to try to learn. Many also see a great build on this forum and use them as infromation for their similar build. This should NOT be used.

I guess Heavy and I as both of us are artillery officers "PAY ATTENTION TO DETAILS".

"That just my opinion, I could be wrong"

Rounds Complete!!

EOM

AHH...Another bar room discussion 

I have to agree with Heavy.   FFE

Most of us here on the fourms are not professional model makers. If we build a kit, do our research and in the end it is 95% correct, looks good and we are happy (and had fun) thats what counts. The problem here is AI is represented as a professional model maker. A professional model make does NOT do OOB. If he is doing a historical model he is expected to:

1. Have his build look like museum quality and

2. The build should technically correct

This build though good looking is neither. Many of us show our works, make comments, share methods to try to learn. Many also see a great build on this forum and use them as infromation for their similar build. This should NOT be used.

I guess Heavy and I as both of us are artillery officers "PAY ATTENTION TO DETAILS".

"That just my opinion, I could be wrong"

Rounds Complete!!

EOM

I guess we see things differently.  I could care less if it is OOB.  Accuracy is accuracy.  A little research can make all the difference.  Also, most model companies usually get the details wrong.  If you rely on their ability to do research alone, most builds would be inaccurate.  I would expect a professional builder to do his own research and correct what the model companies have gotten wrong.  The "he doesn't speak English" excuse doesn't hold water either.  I know plenty of non-English speaking modelers who get details and accuracy correct by doing a little research.  Reference books aren't only written in English.  If MM wants to display his works as those from a professional builder, they should live up to that quality level.  That is the basic problem most of us have with his builds.  They just don't meet the quality level they should.

Yes, all modelers have the above rights.  We also have the right to point out when something is not accurate, not built well, not the right color, etc..  Just as MM has the right to post the pics of the models he buys.  He also has the right to take or leave (as he usually does) our comments as he sees fit.  Those of you who are so inclined also have the right to continue to defend mediocre builds as well.   To each their own

HeavyArty wrote:

defcon1 wrote: Nice one MM. Compliments to AI. Guys, by the look of this dio, it seemed that AI built this almost OOB. He added some straps. The title (U.S. Marines Battle of Hue) came from the AFV Club kit and base. AI's reference seemed to be the kit box. C'mon guys, give him some slack.  http://www.geocities.jp/d_force_world/Part/HOBBY_FAN/HF508.JPG   Since he is supposed to be a "professional builder", one would expect a little bit of research be conducted to get an accurate piece.  That is never the case with his builds.  I guess when the buyer doesn't care about accuracy, why should he.  It is still not an excuse for inaccurate works.  A few minutes on a couple Vietnam websites, picking up a book about Vietnam, or even (heaven forbid) ask here before building it and he could have found out all he needed to know.

I agree that many of his scratch built dioramas have issues but I am talking about the AFV Club diorama kit. What I'm saying that AI seemed to build the kit out of the box. What is wrong with that? "Professional builder" are not allowed to build OOB inaccurate kits? The only reference information that AI gets is from MM.  I know that AI don't speak English and don't have access to internet. MM is happy with the build.

I think many people are "jumpy" on MM's dioramas. I understand pointing out the build issues on scratch built dioramas so a new modeler would have second thought to use it for reference. Wrong mix of vehicles and figures, wrong color, decals...etc.  If someone builds an OOB kit per instructions and box top and telling them it's wrong is silly.  I understand if AI has basic build issues (like glue showing, seams, wrong color, etc). What I read is "wrong title, soldier in wrong position, door hinges, wrong bandoleers..etc". These things came in the kit and were built OOB!

defcon1 wrote:

Nice one MM. Compliments to AI. Guys, by the look of this dio, it seemed that AI built this almost OOB. He added some straps. The title (U.S. Marines Battle of Hue) came from the AFV Club kit and base. AI's reference seemed to be the kit box. C'mon guys, give him some slack.  http://www.geocities.jp/d_force_world/Part/HOBBY_FAN/HF508.JPG

Since he is supposed to be a "professional builder", one would expect a little bit of research be conducted to get an accurate piece.  That is never the case with his builds.  I guess when the buyer doesn't care about accuracy, why should he.  It is still not an excuse for inaccurate works.  A few minutes on a couple Vietnam websites, picking up a book about Vietnam, or even (heaven forbid) ask here before building it and he could have found out all he needed to know.

Not a bad little scene, something small and simple, like the back of the door shot. I don't really know anything much about Vietnam era so I can't tell what's right or wrong, but AI did a pretty decent job of it.

Bondo, lol I'm left handed and wear my watch on my left wrist!

Thats a good piece of info, defcon. It seems as though AFV got most of the color and equipment details noted by you all in this thread- right.

I'm sure that its all about how well you know your subject- we all seem to specialize in one or maybe two, or three rarely, interests. Old AI is very good, but doesn't or isn't expected to know anything about what he builds.

My one little thing was why a left handed guy wears his watch on his left wrist? But thats AFVs call. Or did the guy just switch his weapon from hand to hand for a sec. Never has worked for this paper puncher, but it would be a useful skill.

I liked this one, but IMHO if built straight OOB and per the lid color and detail wise it would have been better, and with some of the knowledge shared here, like the m60 belts, could be a real winner. I'm still bothered by the guy about to lose his foot, but thats part of the story.

Nice one MM. Compliments to AI.

Guys, by the look of this dio, it seemed that AI built this almost OOB. He added some straps. The title (U.S. Marines Battle of Hue) came from the AFV Club kit and base. AI's reference seemed to be the kit box. C'mon guys, give him some slack.

 http://www.geocities.jp/d_force_world/Part/HOBBY_FAN/HF508.JPG

Model Maniac wrote:

Diorama "Battle of Hue 1968" using Hobby Fan's U.S. Marines Battle of Hue 1968 - by "Art Instructor" : For more pics please try my latest page: http://www.falconbbs.com/model39a.htm Have fun!

a couple critics that really don't mean a whole lot, but I know something about the Ancient City Of Hue (the actual name).

* Marine on the left is carrying an issue 45. This would probably not have happened unless he were an Officer or on a crew served weapon. Nobody really wanted to look different from the next guy because that made you a prime target.

* both Marines are using 30 round magazines. They didn't show up till around the middle of May 1968. The loose slings would have gotten you zapped (they are O.D. green). Also the M16's look like they are A-2's with the birdcage flash supressor. All they had were the three pronged jobs.

* wrong bandoleers. Those are closer to what came with an M-1 Garrand, or an M14. Almost nobody carried magazines in the standard field pouches that hung off your hip (land on them a couple times). But what they almost always used was the cloth bandoleers than came in an ammo tin. Normally load out would be twenty one mags (who picked that number nobody knows, but that was the fad back then). One otherthing here; everybody carried a couple M60 belts. No matter who you were, when the kid in front of you hollered for a belt you better have one.

I know it's nit picking, and as I said means little so don't get mad.

gary

Ok...I admit it is pretty good but we are into my era (Sorry Heavy, time for old details).

As pointed out, the Battle of Hue was basically a street battle in a mojor city so a straw hut is wrong for that title.

The Battle of Hue was fought by US Marines. Marines normally did not wear the camoflage cover band on their helmets. It appears these guys have bands.

The straps on the M16 look to be brown leather. I don't think the M16 was ever issued that way. Normally they had black cloth straps. While on that issue, the old M16 was rarely seen with straps on in combat, or if they were they were held out of the way and tight to the weapon sometimes with with tape. The strap tended to get caught all over things in the jungle. These straps are flying in the wind.

The soldiers have basically no LBE on. The battle of Hue was fought first to cross the river to the city gate, and then through the city. I would think any smart soldier or marine would carry every thing he could since he would not know when he was going to get back to the rear for resupply. Futher the fight was so intense, he would need everything in that LBE.

The soldier oppsite the solider kicking in the door does not seem to be in a good position if anyone is behind the door.

The solider kicking in the door is also carrying a 45 pistol. By that point in the was the holsters were no longer brown they were black. Also in general the only foot soldier enlisted issued a 45 was the M79 man and some of the 1SG and CSMs. Our friend is carrying an M16 and does not look like a CSM.

I could go on but as I said I like the work. It is good. Not as good as say Manny (don't get a big head), but good.

Historically it is off base when it comes to the details.. especially IF you are going to call it the Battle of Hue.

"Thats just my opinion, I could be wrong"

Rounds Complete!!

I just went to MM's site. This is the back of the door:

ajlafleche wrote:

Nice touch with the booby trap. The figure who's not kicking the door. Looks like his watch band was painted over, or is that just the picture. His facial features, what I can see of them, appear to be African-American. If so, his arms at least are way too light. It's hard to tell withthe face though.

That is an arbitrary observation. The difference between the shade of a black man's face and arms is no less effected by sun exposure with long sleeves than a white man's. You know what a farmer's tan is, I'm sure. There are light skinned black people. This individual just might be effected in the same way. Personally, I think it's the photography lighting.

ajlafleche wrote:

His facial features, what I can see of them, appear to be African-American. If so, his arms at least are way too light. It's hard to tell withthe face though.

Yeah, I saw that too, but his face looked like it was painted a little darker, so I assumed his arms appeared to light because of the lighting or flash...

Nice touch with the booby trap.

The figure who's not kicking the door. Looks like his watch band was painted over, or is that just the picture. His facial features, what I can see of them, appear to be African-American. If so, his arms at least are way too light. It's hard to tell withthe face though.

It has been awhile since I read about Hue, but I can suspend disbelief a little and accept that this little hooch is out on the edge of the city, so I don't have a big issue with that.  The only think I noticed is that the hinges are on the outside of the door - so it opens outward, so why are they kicking it...?

I would echo the general consensus however - this is pretty well done - good sense of action/urgency.