WW 11 German aircraft Swastika decals??

All this reminds me of our clubs previous president who built an Israeli AH-64. At our comp a member of the public got upset over the Star of David on the chopper. It was OK to display the nazi stuff, but that was not OK. I think for historical accuracy that you should be able to display the swastikas or any other symbol, but NOT GLORIFY it. It all comes down to personal choice, not PC!!

As the weather is is really warm (you northern types can freeze!!) it is lawn mowing time!!! No model building today, a swim is in order today!!!!!

luftwaffle wrote:

A lot of good input here but one questions that seems to always go unanswered is why the Japanese seem to wind up with free pass in regards to war crimes.  It's come up in this thread but I still don't see any real answers. The atrocities of the Nazi regime are well documented and the Swastika is a universal symbol of evil, to the point where countries like Finland discontinued it's use even though they had no ties with National Socialism other than accepting Greman aid when they were invaded by the USSR. The Japanese were guilty of many brutal, heinous crimes (read up on the "Rape of Nanking") during the war (9,000,000-16,000,000 Chinese civilians lost their lives in the Japanese occupation of China, depending on which source you choose to believe) but there never seems to be the same level of outrage in regards to them as opposed to the Nazi regime. Is it because the Japanese simply refuse to acknowledge many of their actions?  As a guy who builds mostly Luftwaffe aircraft I've been accused of being a Nazi sympathizer on more than one occasion, does someone who builds mostly Japanese stuff get the same treatment?  My guess would be no, although I'm at kind of a loss to explain it.

 Because the Japanese did it to the Chinese. The Germans did it to caucasian Europeans. Nobody seemed to care what happened to the Asians. Just like nobody cared about what the communists did to the Cambodians after our involvement in SEA and nobody cares today about all the brutalities in Africa.

 

 

bondoman wrote:

Hans von Hammer wrote: As a guy who builds mostly Luftwaffe aircraft I've been accused of being a Nazi sympathizer on more than one occasion You ain't seen nothin'... Try dressing as a WW2 German Panzergrenadier, rolling through Ashland, Nebraska, in the back of an Opel Blitz with ten other guys dressed that way, complete with rifles and helmets, and getting stopped by the local constabulary...   As a re-enactor, I get that sh*t all the time...      Well take the 251 next time and they won't mess with you...

 

 I'll just tell 'em we're French an' surrender...

Pavlvs wrote:

I once met a gentleman at the Udvar-Hazy center outside Washington DC who was a pilot for the Japanese Navy in WWII. We were looking at the Enola Gay when a tour group came around and the guide was spewing political correctness about the Hiroshima mission and this man interrupted the guide and told the tour group and said, "Let there be no mistake, that airplane saved my country." He was pointing at the Enola Gay. This was after he told them that he was a Japanese pilot in WWII. People have many and varied ways of seeing history. IMHO, we ban thoughts to our peril, no matter what they are. People should be allowed to speak as they wish. Listening is always optional.

Yes, that is true, and in the US seems to be the way of things. But Germans might see it differently, and that is their prerogative as well. Which is where the ban on Swastikas originated.

I will reiterate that Political Correctness, whatever that means, has nothing to do with this.

I once met a gentleman at the Udvar-Hazy center outside Washington DC who was a pilot for the Japanese Navy in WWII. We were looking at the Enola Gay when a tour group came around and the guide was spewing political correctness about the Hiroshima mission and this man interrupted the guide and told the tour group and said, "Let there be no mistake, that airplane saved my country." He was pointing at the Enola Gay. This was after he told them that he was a Japanese pilot in WWII. People have many and varied ways of seeing history. IMHO, we ban thoughts to our peril, no matter what they are. People should be allowed to speak as they wish. Listening is always optional.

Hans von Hammer wrote:

As a guy who builds mostly Luftwaffe aircraft I've been accused of being a Nazi sympathizer on more than one occasion You ain't seen nothin'... Try dressing as a WW2 German Panzergrenadier, rolling through Ashland, Nebraska, in the back of an Opel Blitz with ten other guys dressed that way, complete with rifles and helmets, and getting stopped by the local constabulary...   As a re-enactor, I get that sh*t all the time...

Well take the 251 next time and they won't mess with you...

I was reading your post during my lunch break and I almost sprayed chicken tortilla soup all over my keyboard from the laughter! 

 What a sight in Nebraska! 

Reminds me of a scene from a movie - Did you guys ever see the movie Rat Race, where Jon Lovitz and his family hijack a 1930s Mercedes Benz from a Neo-Nazi museum in the Nevada desert, then through a series of accidents, gets his wife's dark colored make up (or somehow burns, forget which) the area right above his lip, ends up looking like Hitler, and crashes into a WW2 veterans reunion ceremony?  Hilarious!!!

 Happy Modelling!

Bill

 

trexx wrote:

worked alongside a gentleman that was a vetran from Tarawa and Iwo Jima from World War Two. He wouldn't have anything to do with Japanese people or anything he knew that was produced in Japan.

An anecdote and an observation, as Trexx noted.

Anecdote: My Father in law fought 1942-1945 in the ETO and he wouldn't buy anything German, ever. His study is full of Sony equipment.

Conclusion: Personal experience. And the modern Germans have their reasons, it is a Democracy, and I respect them. Nothing PC at all about it.

The entire issue is a testament to the savagry and loss associated with World War Two.

I find find the difference between having a reverence of your enemy or sympathy often confused.

Further thoughts:

Only in my wildest imagination could I understand a State making it illegal to be certain race and then produce "factories" ala inceneration plants to fulfill a plan of human extermination.

Chester Nimitz of the United States Navy and Curtis LeMay of the United States Army Air Force were well known to have an extreme hatred of the Japanese.

I worked alongside a gentleman that was a vetran from Tarawa and Iwo Jima from World War Two. He wouldn't have anything to do with Japanese people or anything he knew that was produced in Japan.

As a guy who builds mostly Luftwaffe aircraft I've been accused of being a Nazi sympathizer on more than one occasion

You ain't seen nothin'... Try dressing as a WW2 German Panzergrenadier, rolling through Ashland, Nebraska, in the back of an Opel Blitz with ten other guys dressed that way, complete with rifles and helmets, and getting stopped by the local constabulary...

 

As a re-enactor, I get that sh*t all the time... 

 

 

luftwaffle - As for the difference between Nazi & Japan symbols, all has to do with the specific legal issues and not about any degree of "evilness". Modern Germany decided to enact various laws to abolish the swastika and the nazi party. Modern Japan has mostly ignored/denied their WW2 history and did nothing to abolish Imperial Japan symbols in a legal way.

From a purely "symbolic" standpoint, the swastika represented NAZI Germany (emphasis on NAZI), while the Rising Sun represented Imperial JAPAN (emphasis on JAPAN). Therefore, it is easier to eliminate a symbol of a party/ideology and "cleanse" the country (Germany) of Nazi ties, than to "cleanse" Japan of "evil Japan" ties, specially when it would include making not-so nice reference to their Emperor.

As for anyone who calls you a "nazi sympathizer" for building 109s, that is ignorant and ridiculous. Not to mention, they have no taste at all in aircraft ;)

Funny, I just remembered someone calling me that, many many years ago, when i used to play Panzer General in all its flavors. And those computer games were devoid of swastikas!

trexx wrote:

a torch to the enemy.

 

I have that book.   A Torch to the Enemy: The Shattering story of US Air Power and the Fire Raids that Destroyed Japan, by Martin Caidin.  My copy was printed in 1960.

The only way to disarm the Japanese military complex, which was comprised of not only giant factories, but hundreds or even thousands of mom and pop shops intermixed around cities, neighborhoods, and outlying areas, was to bomb the whole place to smithereens.  Fire bombing was the most effective way to accomplish this.  Yes, it killed every one in sight but it smashed the manufacture of anything of military use.  

If you want to talk about wanton fire bombing, let's talk about the 1945 Dresden raid, essentially Churchill's way to improve morale, that killed thousands of innocents.  Some called it a 'British baby killing scheme.'  American newspapers condemned the attack, saying that the USAAF had 'slid across the same moral threshold that the RAF did in 1942.'   An ironic aftermath of this horrific episode came Slaughterhouse Five by Kurt Vonnegut.

Either way, war is a horrible thing.  Wasn't it Robert E. Lee who remarked after Fredericksburg that 'it is well that war is so terrible or we should grow too fond of it.'    

At the Montana Club in Helena, Montana, a building which predates WWII by some sixty years, the floor is covered in swastikas.  In one of my history books, there is a picture of a women sitting in a waiting room of some New York City building with swastikas in the tile work.  Swastikas are all over the place.    

A lot of good input here but one questions that seems to always go unanswered is why the Japanese seem to wind up with free pass in regards to war crimes.  It's come up in this thread but I still don't see any real answers.

The atrocities of the Nazi regime are well documented and the Swastika is a universal symbol of evil, to the point where countries like Finland discontinued it's use even though they had no ties with National Socialism other than accepting Greman aid when they were invaded by the USSR.

The Japanese were guilty of many brutal, heinous crimes (read up on the "Rape of Nanking") during the war (9,000,000-16,000,000 Chinese civilians lost their lives in the Japanese occupation of China, depending on which source you choose to believe) but there never seems to be the same level of outrage in regards to them as opposed to the Nazi regime. Is it because the Japanese simply refuse to acknowledge many of their actions? 

As a guy who builds mostly Luftwaffe aircraft I've been accused of being a Nazi sympathizer on more than one occasion, does someone who builds mostly Japanese stuff get the same treatment?  My guess would be no, although I'm at kind of a loss to explain it.

This can be a saw point with many people, especially those who had family that lived through it. Its a symbol that associated with a political party that did many grevious crimes against humanity. We have to respect that Germany in the ashes of their ruin wanted not to repeat what had happened and banned symbols that represented those crimes. This may be an inconvience to some, but we have to respect it and the pain they bear.

During the 1960's I read "Stuka Pilot" by Rudel and even built his cannon armed Stuka that Monogram produced. I respected his courage and determination. Later in life when I found out about his actions with the Odessa organization and smuggling war crimminals out of Europe, I lost the respect I had for him. For me I couldn't build another model flown by him, because he did connect himself closely to that symbol on the tail of his aircraft. This is my own personal choice.

I play the flight sim, IL-2 Sturmovick Forgotten Battles, that symbol is absent from the German aircraft in the game. Does that bother me, no, I respect the wishes of those who do not want that part of the past to be repeated.

Mike T.

Whenever this subject comes up I flinch and become annoyed.  I had a very bad experience with this in grade school.

  I used to draw quite a bit; airplanes, tanks, trucks, etc, mostly of WW2 vintage.  Whenever I would draw a German vehicle of that period, I would apply the correct markings: ie, Balkenkreuz, swastikas, etc.  Once I was drawing during lunch, and one of the lunch supervisors came up to me, reprimanded me, had me sign the drawing (which did have a swastika on it...) and took me to the principle's office!  By this time I was crying my eyes out, because as far as I was concerned, I was producing a historically accurate representation of a piece of equipment.  The markings I had used were not meant to display predjudice of any kind.  I was using them for accuracy only.  Eventually however, the principle sided with me (her husband was also a military artist, and had got a "bad rap" for his inclusion of such symbology) and I was freed, with no consequences. Later I heard another student ask a question about Nazis to a supervisor (my incident had sparked discussion), who promptly replied, "We don't talk about Nazis here!"  Since then I cannot build a german aircraft without wondering, "will I offend somebody?"  I worry about this constantly, because I study mostly German subjects at school, out of historical intrest and technological fascination. 

This should clue you in about how I feel on this point.  Why do the people in charge focus on banning symbols and such; meaningless displays, when they could be going for the jugular; the groups who constantly perpetuate the fear?  The hydra will not die by cutting off its heads.  You have to destroy its heart.

Excuse my mini-rant...

Cheers,

-Red   

roguepink2 wrote:

Let's try to stay on topic.  Hiroshima / Nagasaki is not the question. I had this debate with the marketing people at Cox when I was designing decals for their Fw-190 and Bf-109 flying models.  They objected because the Swastika was a symbol of evil, hatred, fear, and did not belong on their models.  Nevermind that the airplanes themselves were weapons of evil, hatred, and fear just as much as the symbol carried on the tail. My view is that as long as we try to bury the Swastika, we consent to give it power as a symbol of terror.  The only way to destroy that power is to bring the symbol into the light and have it become so common it no longer evokes an emotional response.  Education is also a great tool for destroying the power of a symbol.  The Swastika, as many people know, was taken from Buddhism where it was a symbol of luck and fortune.  Also, examples of it could be found in American architecture and design as late as the 1920's. Those who forget (bury, ignore, delete, or deny) history are doomed to repeat it. I include swastikas on my German airplanes.  I am also Jewish.  There you go.

 

 

best post iv ever read on here

trexx wrote:

deeve wrote: Don't forget the Americans dropping an atomic bomb on a civillian centre or then dropping incendiaries on Tokyo...   The Twentieth Air Force ran out of military targets! Once the industrial centers were destroyed and they didn't give up, the United States Army Air Force started putting areas that had dense concentrations of workers homes on the target lists. We put a torch to the enemy. 100% fact.

 

Try doing that today and see the outrage.  Can you say warcrimes?

 

I have read up on the subject. The bombing of Japan was a necessity as everyone was a potential combatant. They would have fought to the last man. My point was more that even today it is viewed as an acceptable action, yet if it was done now, it would be an outrage to the level of the Nazi horrors. If the Japanese had have done that to the US you can bet there would be bans on the rising sun insignia.

A few weeks back I ordered online and one of my purchases was a low priced Arii FW 190 in 1/48th scale. I finally opened it this morning and to my surprise there are two swastikas on the decal sheet. My father paid almost 70 bucks for the same plane in 1/24th scale and no swastika. Oh well...

Political correctness really has very little to do with the banning of swastikas in Europe. For most Europeans the swastika holds far more horror than it does in America. I had an uncle who participated in the liberation of at least one death camp while serving with Patton's 3rd. Army and he never seemed to be quite "right" after what he saw. While many consider it silly or political correctness run amok to ban these things still others have deep scars. I am fully aware that the swastika appears in many forms, i.e. Finnish A/C insignia, Norse mythology, Native American religion, and Budhist. My greatest shock was seeing a form of the swastika on a Budhist temple while on road convoy in VietNam. All that being said, another poster clarified that ya can't show 'em on the boxtop but their usually on the decals in "kit form". If not, there's always AM decals. It's not really all that important since they are usually available somewhere.

 

This topic comes and goes in the forum on a monthly basis, there is no definite answer per se.

As mentioned in one of the posts, the "real" reason you dont find Swastikas on our model kits is due to modeling (military replicas) are bystander/collateral casualty to the much MUCH bigger issue of using the outlawed symbol of an illegal party/ideology.

In other words, we dont get certain decals in order to keep neo-nazi elements parading with nazi flags in certain countries. 

But military modeling is such small potatoes that we can skirt the issue by buying decals in pieces, or inside envelopes, etc etc. So, the small "annoyance" at having to put together a swastika decal, or finding AM decals is the price we pay for certain European/German laws.

I do not think has ANYTHING to do with the catch all label "political correctness" or historical issues or even mesures of "evilness". Basically boils down to legal regulations.

 

T_Terrific wrote:

My I also am disappointed with the ommission of swastika's in my recent Lindberg Stuka kit, although they are shown in the instruction sheet. Last week I found in my spares stash (I keep spare/leftover decals in a special storage box) a sheet from another kit and the unused swastika's looked right, so I applied them from that one. Since this kit is made and sold here in the U.S., I do not see why some European taboo should apply here but, there it is. Funny, this taboo did not apply to the reference book I recently bought that was printed in the UK. All Luftwaffe aircraft illustrated in it have swastika's. Meanwhile, my Tamiya kits do not have them ommitted-so this looks to me like this manyfacturer is using the Euro thing as a means of "getting off the hook" in providing a complete set of detailed decals. At least that is the feeling I am getting. Tom T

Tom,

I think, perhaps, you answered your own question.  I assume the kit in question (the one without swastikas) is made in Germany by a German company?  As others have pointed out, this is a result of a law in Germany, which is why your book from the UK and your kits from Japan have the swastikas.

Just out of curiosity would reversing the direction make any difference as far as the law is concerned in Germany? My understanding is many of the similar signs (Finnish, Buddest etc) actually face the other direction so technically you could say thay are not Nazi swastikas. Inaccurate sure but more accurate than their ommision.

My

I also am disappointed with the ommission of swastika's in my recent Lindberg Stuka kit, although they are shown in the instruction sheet.

Last week I found in my spares stash (I keep spare/leftover decals in a special storage box) a sheet from another kit and the unused swastika's looked right, so I applied them from that one.

Since this kit is made and sold here in the U.S., I do not see why some European taboo should apply here but, there it is.

Funny, this taboo did not apply to the reference book I recently bought that was printed in the UK.

All Luftwaffe aircraft illustrated in it have swastika's.

Meanwhile, my Tamiya kits do not have them ommitted-so this looks to me like this manyfacturer is using the Euro thing as a means of "getting off the hook" in providing a complete set of detailed decals.

At least that is the feeling I am getting.

Tom T

the Baron wrote:

Although as an American, I believe you should be able to show whatever you want.  This is precisely the sort of political speech the Founding Fathers had in mind (NOT strip clubs-sorry, guys).  But just as all Americans have the right to express an idea, no matter how distasteful, our fellow citizens have the right to argue the opposing view.  And all this should go down, without anyone throwing any punches.  There-there's our 50-cent civics lesson for the day. Regards, Brad

 it is not a place to do this discussion but I started to really have fun here 

tango35 wrote:

Here in Germany the swastika are banned by law, because the swastika is the sign of a criminal organization ( § 86 StGB, Criminal Code of the Federal Republic of Germany ). The Law allows you to show the swastika in your own house or flat, but its forbidden to show in public. So, for a modeler in Germany it means, that you have to hide the swastika if you want to show your model at an exhibition. That are the rules. Its "funny", that politicians think, that banning will wipe out the memory of this sign. Its uninteresting if other countries did war crimes, too .You can´t compare war crimes, otherwise you couldn´t use any markings of any nations, because every nation in the world comitted war crimes, e.g. Usage of Toxic liquids like Agent Orange or ethnical cleanings in Tibet. Futhermore i have to agree that decaling with swastika is the decision of every single modeler.

Danke sehr, Tango35, for referencing the specific legal prohibition.  I think many people today are ignorant of the history behind the law.

Lest anyone assume that the Germans, on their own, passed that law, out of some sort of modern liberal political correctness, understand that the first legal bans were put in place immediately after the war, with the support of the Allied Control Commission.  It was adopted in the Grundgesetz (or "Basic Law", the Federal Republic's constitution), when the Western Allies formed their zones of occupation into the Federal Republic of Germany in 1949.  It has been part of German law ever since.

This post isn't intended to indicate support or disapproval of the law, just to help explain why it is in place.

Although as an American, I believe you should be able to show whatever you want.  This is precisely the sort of political speech the Founding Fathers had in mind (NOT strip clubs-sorry, guys).  But just as all Americans have the right to express an idea, no matter how distasteful, our fellow citizens have the right to argue the opposing view.  And all this should go down, without anyone throwing any punches.  There-there's our 50-cent civics lesson for the day.

Regards,

Brad

The Hinomaru wasn't actually adopted as the national flag of Japan until the last 90s or early 2000 I believe and there is still significant debate within Japan about the appropriateness of its use.  Finland originally used the swastika as did Latvia within their roundels.  In fact here in Korea, the symbol for a Buddhist temple is a swastika.  As for whether the symbol is ok on models, I think that should be up to the preference of the builder.  I like to build models for historical reasons and in my opinion if it was there on the real subject, it should be on the model.  Should WWII Italian subjects delete the roundel of the fascist regime?  After all the axes were the original symbol of fascism.  Should Soviet era subjects delete the Red Star?  Should the Romanian or Bulgarian crosses be ommitted because they were allies of Nazi Germany?   Should we omitt the confederate battle flag from diorammas of the civil war because of slavery or the U.S. flag because we dropped the atomic bombs on Japan (regardless of the reasons)...  Again build what you want, the way you want, I think models should be as historically accurate as possible and ommitting roundels and symbols on them for political reasons or because the what the symbol stands for is revolting, goes down a road that I think is best untraveled...  Just my two cents.

tango35 wrote:

Here in Germany the swastika are banned by law, because the swastika is the sign of a criminal organization ( § 86 StGB, Criminal Code of the Federal Republic of Germany ). The Law allows you to show the swastika in your own house or flat, but its forbidden to show in public. So, for a modeler in Germany it means, that you have to hide the swastika if you want to show your model at an exhibition. That are the rules. Its "funny", that politicians think, that banning will wipe out the memory of this sign.

That's true, the Swastika ban is primarily a German thing. It's not an EU rule and in a lot of other European countries there is no law against Swastika's. But because Germany is such a large country (with a large market for models) most companies delete the Swastika's from their decal sheets.

This ban sometimes leads to funny things. I was once in a modelshop Germany that sold Swastika decal sheets. But since this is prohibited they where packed in a sealed envelope, called "german national insignia 1933-1945" (or something like that) and had explicite instructions to only open the envelop at home.

Here in Germany the swastika are banned by law, because the swastika is the sign of a criminal organization ( § 86 StGB, Criminal Code of the Federal Republic of Germany ). The Law allows you to show the swastika in your own house or flat, but its forbidden to show in public.

So, for a modeler in Germany it means, that you have to hide the swastika if you want to show your model at an exhibition. That are the rules. Its "funny", that politicians think, that banning will wipe out the memory of this sign.

Its uninteresting if other countries did war crimes, too .You can´t compare war crimes, otherwise you couldn´t use any markings of any nations, because every nation in the world comitted war crimes, e.g. Usage of Toxic liquids like Agent Orange or ethnical cleanings in Tibet.

Futhermore i have to agree that decaling with swastika is the decision of every single modeler.

 

Hans von Hammer wrote:

Question: (Model-focused in order to not disturb the moderators, and we all should likely stay that way lest this thread turn into a flame-session, because all the fuel is here for one, it just needs a spark to go WHOOMP! So let's all shut up about the other crap. THis isn't the forum for that.)

 When your right your right, good call Hammer!.

So as I was saying before Hammer inturupted, I like models I think models are cool.