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"GERMAN ARROWS" - OFFICIAL DO-335 GB

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  • Member since
    February 2011
  • From: Bent River, IA
Posted by Reasoned on Saturday, March 29, 2014 8:39 PM

Congrats Doug!Toast

Science is the pursiut of knowledge, faith is the pursuit of wisdom.  Peace be with you.

On the Tarmac: 1/48 Revell P-38

In the Hanger: A bunch of kits

  • Member since
    February 2011
  • From: Bent River, IA
Posted by Reasoned on Sunday, March 30, 2014 9:49 PM

Thank you MAgather, think I'm going 81-82/76 with 66 cockpit.  What are you doing wheel wells in?

Science is the pursiut of knowledge, faith is the pursuit of wisdom.  Peace be with you.

On the Tarmac: 1/48 Revell P-38

In the Hanger: A bunch of kits

  • Member since
    April 2007
  • From: Twin Towns, MN
Posted by MAgather on Tuesday, April 1, 2014 9:04 AM

Reasoned,

I've got most of a more detailed answer to your question in the can, Sorry I forgot your interior bits.  I did RLM 66 in the cockpit and 02 everywhere else, including wheelwells.  I've got some photos earlier in the thread on my wheelwell upgrades, but it is probably easier to just post here

Good Modeling,
  • Member since
    February 2011
  • From: Bent River, IA
Posted by Reasoned on Tuesday, April 1, 2014 7:46 PM

Great, thanks.  Then 02 it is.  BTW, I like the scratch work, it adds a lot.

Science is the pursiut of knowledge, faith is the pursuit of wisdom.  Peace be with you.

On the Tarmac: 1/48 Revell P-38

In the Hanger: A bunch of kits

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Wednesday, April 2, 2014 7:57 AM

Doug, well done, and don't sell yourself short, that's a great build.

I am a Norfolk man and i glory in being so

 

On the bench: Airfix 1/72nd Harrier GR.3/Fujimi 1/72nd Ju 87D-3

  • Member since
    October 2008
  • From: Georgia
Posted by Rigidrider on Wednesday, April 2, 2014 12:09 PM

Thanks Bish... I guess its just hard to figure what the judges are looking at and for in a kit.  

PS Stuka calling my name... (ha)

When Life Hands You A Bucket Of Lemons...

Make Lemonade!

Then Sell It Back At $2 Bucks A Glass...

  • Member since
    February 2011
  • From: Bent River, IA
Posted by Reasoned on Wednesday, April 2, 2014 1:01 PM

MAgather

I've beeFinally, here is the topside. I did the same process (dark mottle followed by RLM and then RLM lightened). This is MM 82 & 83, which my research says is accurate for this airframe. My impression however is that MM actually has their numbers reversed, and what MM calls RLM 83 is actually what the standardized RLM 82 as defined by the Reich Luftsfahrt Ministririum (the bright green), and that MM 82 is actually an early version of 81 before it was standardized as what we now call Braunviolette.

Hey MAgather or Arrow builders, referring to the above quote.  I was looking at the suggested 81/82 combination after mixing etc., is it just me or does the MM version of 82 "Dark Green" look a little too "Dark" compared to what it looks in other pictures?  Maybe my bottle is wrong but up next to 81 "which looks correct", it just looks too dark.  Is that what you are referring too?  So could you do 81/83 to compensate as opposed to 82/83 (which are both greens)?  I was looking at other pics (see below) and they stated 81/82 but again, the 82 looks lighter.Confused

Science is the pursiut of knowledge, faith is the pursuit of wisdom.  Peace be with you.

On the Tarmac: 1/48 Revell P-38

In the Hanger: A bunch of kits

  • Member since
    April 2007
  • From: Twin Towns, MN
Posted by MAgather on Thursday, April 3, 2014 2:12 AM

Reasoned,

I'm not the RLM expert by any means, this is my first Luftwaffe aircraft in 38 years.  But like you and many others, when I do something, I want it to be as accurate as possible. So I dove deep as I realized which aircraft I was going to model.

There are probably folks here who have forgotten more on this subject than I've learned. If I've got anything incorrect, or if you have input, please let me know. This is the best I've been able to track down, but I'm sure there are plenty of additional resources.

Specific to your question re: Model Master Paints.  One of the definitive resources on Luftwaffe color schemes is the standard "The Official Monogram Painting Guide to Luftwaffe Aircraft 1939 - 1945" by Merrick & Hitchcock, 1980.  Initially they may have had their designations for 82 & 83 reversed.

I found a copy of this online (print copies are thru the roof) and it has images of the colors as they identified them, and it is probable that many paint mfrs would have used them as one of the best resources to develop their colors from.

In Errata - Omission they state: “Since Publication of this book, the authors have not discovered definitive official confirmation for the true identity of colors 81,82, and 83…the so-called late-war colors. However, the preponderance of evidence from all sources suggest that Color 81 was Brown-Violet, 82 was Bright Green and Color 83 was Dark Green. This does not negate the fact that there existed considerable contradiction between various aircraft painting charts regarding the true description of these late-war colors.”

To emphasize their final point, the official Dornier released Oberflachenshutzlste 8 Os 335A dated 11/26/1944 and approved by RLM, D.Luft.T.2335 "designated the ‘green’ 81/82/76 camouflage be applied to the 335. Colors designated as “Dunkelgrun 81" and Dunkelgrun 82”.

Both my aircraft and 1/3 shown above are painted according to the Oberflachenshutzliste 8 Os 335A, in that the darker paint and the lighter paint are in the correct locations.  

If you look at the MM paints you have, 81 should be Braun-Violette, and that color is pretty close to what I understand to be the most widely agreed upon accurate representation of RLM 81.  Compare that color to the restoration of 102 done by Dornier in the 70's and now displayed at NASM, you will see that it is pretty close to the colors they used.  And what Dornier used for RLM 82 is close to what ModelMaster calls 83, but that upon examination of a number of late Me 262's with original paint, MM83 appears to match RLM 82 on those aircraft as well. In addition, there are a number of '262's with RLM 81 that approximate the MM Braun-Violette.

Thus, I believe MM has misidentified their 83, and it is actually closer to 82.  What MM calls 82 may be an early (non-standardized) version of what the German paint manufacturers were producing as 81 before the official color chips came out.  

The issue is that examination of 102 prior to restoration clearly indicates that it was not painted in Braun-Voilette, and that it was painted in a more olive green shaded version.  To make matters more confused, the Oberflachenshutzliste for Me 163 says 81, and there is an unrestored B in Australia that has a very similar shade of "81" that matches the 81 on the unrestored 102. Smarter folks than me make the assumption that both plants (within `50 miles?? of each other) both got early samples of 'RLM 81' before the standards had been definitively applied and samples distributed.

I hope that makes sense, because it is a very convoluted issue.  I literally have read and reread my various documentation trying to follow the threads, and finally think I've got a pretty good handle on it.

Good Modeling,
  • Member since
    April 2007
  • From: Twin Towns, MN
Posted by MAgather on Thursday, April 3, 2014 2:15 AM

Now for a much quicker summary of Luftwaffe painting guidelines that apply to our Dornier  Do 335s:

Nov 1941 Luft Druckvorschiften L.Dv. 521/1

   b) Fighters   Colors 74,75,76,65

   c) Destroyers  As above

   d) Bombers & Transports Colors 70,71,65

July 1, 1944 Sammelmitteilung Nr. 1:

  “1) Types in production, colors 70 & 71 are to be superseded by colors 81 & 82 as soon as possible….use   of residual stocks in the following combinations is authorized:

  Color 82 is to be used with 70 (replacing 71)

  Color 81 is to be used with 71 (replacing 70)

August 15, 1944: Sammelmitteilung Nr.2:

  “…As a result of the new revision, the following colors will not be used in the future: 65,70,71 and 74. Color 70 however is still prescribed for propellers."

November 26, 1944 Oberflachenshutzliste 8 Os 335A:

  Released by Dornier & approved by RLM, D.Luft.T.2335 designated the ‘green’ 81/82/76 camouflage be applied to the 335. Colors designated as “Dunkelgrun 81" and "Dunkelgrun 82”

Since much of the production was built as bombers, the original colors would have been 70/71/65, and late production would have been 81/82/76.  

But if you build a B, or a night fighter version, I think it is accurate to paint it in the colors of the destroyers or night fighters, as that is the way Dornier would have painted them. 

Hope that helps.

Good Modeling,
  • Member since
    February 2011
  • From: Bent River, IA
Posted by Reasoned on Thursday, April 3, 2014 7:00 AM

Great info, thank you. Looks like I will use what MM calls 81 and 83 to represent 81/82.  I think I better rename  the 83 bottle and discard the 82.

Science is the pursiut of knowledge, faith is the pursuit of wisdom.  Peace be with you.

On the Tarmac: 1/48 Revell P-38

In the Hanger: A bunch of kits

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Central Nebraska
Posted by freem on Thursday, April 3, 2014 9:30 AM

Good to know this.  Been studying on it and I'm getting close to painting my 335 in the next week or so.  I may have to purchase those MM colors if I can't figure out how to custom mix from what I have on hand. Unfortunately the closest LHS is an hour away--not much but pasture land in central Nebraska.

Chris Christenson

 

  • Member since
    February 2011
  • From: Bent River, IA
Posted by Reasoned on Thursday, April 3, 2014 3:22 PM

Wow, come on Model Masters, this has been going on since at least 2004!  See the attached link in FSM

http://cs.finescale.com/fsm/modeling_subjects/f/2/t/18944.aspx

BTW, for any of you doing the Monogram kit, are you going to button up those panels covering the engines or leave them open?  In looking at the detail/lack thereof, think I'm going to have to try and make sure those panels are lined up and to close it

Science is the pursiut of knowledge, faith is the pursuit of wisdom.  Peace be with you.

On the Tarmac: 1/48 Revell P-38

In the Hanger: A bunch of kits

  • Member since
    April 2007
  • From: Twin Towns, MN
Posted by MAgather on Thursday, April 3, 2014 9:44 PM

PJ:

Absolutely beautiful build.  Looks fantastic, and congrats on your finish.  

Good Modeling,
  • Member since
    February 2011
  • From: Bent River, IA
Posted by Reasoned on Friday, April 11, 2014 8:11 PM

Hey MAgather, in your research of 102 did you come across this site "Wings Palette"? www.wp.scn.ru/

Here is the page on the Do 335 "102" http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww2/f/470/2/0#11

Science is the pursiut of knowledge, faith is the pursuit of wisdom.  Peace be with you.

On the Tarmac: 1/48 Revell P-38

In the Hanger: A bunch of kits

  • Member since
    October 2008
  • From: Georgia
Posted by Rigidrider on Saturday, April 12, 2014 6:36 PM

Reasoned... I opened mine up, #1 due to the resin engine I used... and #2, Have you tried to fit the cover closed yet? I,ve found them to be a poor fit at best, and I think they knew that thinking every one would leave oped to view engine.

It can be made to fit with a lot of patience and a equil ammount of cussing.

Doug

When Life Hands You A Bucket Of Lemons...

Make Lemonade!

Then Sell It Back At $2 Bucks A Glass...

  • Member since
    April 2007
  • From: Twin Towns, MN
Posted by MAgather on Sunday, April 13, 2014 12:27 AM

Reasoned, had not seen that site (at least for the Arrow).  Some good references. Thanks for the pointer

Good Modeling,
  • Member since
    February 2011
  • From: Bent River, IA
Posted by Reasoned on Thursday, April 17, 2014 2:54 PM
Rigidrider

Reasoned... I opened mine up, #1 due to the resin engine I used... and #2, Have you tried to fit the cover closed yet? I,ve found them to be a poor fit at best, and I think they knew that thinking every one would leave oped to view engine.

It can be made to fit with a lot of patience and a equil ammount of cussing.

Doug

Yeah, now I know why you should leave it open. Wow are these panel joints a mess, not certain how this is going to work out.....or IF it will!

Science is the pursiut of knowledge, faith is the pursuit of wisdom.  Peace be with you.

On the Tarmac: 1/48 Revell P-38

In the Hanger: A bunch of kits

  • Member since
    December 2013
Posted by CodyJ on Monday, April 21, 2014 9:47 PM

Well I have read and viewed this GB and was at the Hobby Store today.  I am not a big plane builder but I had to pick up the Revell Do-335 Kit so I could join in this one.  So please count me in Clemens!  Thanks all!!!

  • Member since
    February 2011
  • From: Bent River, IA
Posted by Reasoned on Wednesday, April 23, 2014 11:09 PM

An update, been kinda slow going at the bench.  A shot of the office (what there is), which makes me think I'm going to button her up instead of leaving the canopy open, your thoughts?  You can kind of see in the pic the SIGNIFICANT amount of sanding/filling done on the panels, not happy with that but it beats working on the B-36!

Science is the pursiut of knowledge, faith is the pursuit of wisdom.  Peace be with you.

On the Tarmac: 1/48 Revell P-38

In the Hanger: A bunch of kits

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Central Nebraska
Posted by freem on Monday, April 28, 2014 3:39 PM

Reasoned

Good to see some progress!  If I can get off my butt I'll get some pics posted of my progress.  Got the wings and tailplanes on just need to clean up a gap on the wing roots. And yes mine has a ton of filler and sanding on it as well.  What did you use for the seat belts?

Chris Christenson

 

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Monday, April 28, 2014 5:09 PM

Welcome aboard Cody, good to see you getting stuck in.

Nice progress Reasoned.

My build is next in line after the Pz III for the n Africa GB, I am really looking forward to staring on the Arrow.

I am a Norfolk man and i glory in being so

 

On the bench: Airfix 1/72nd Harrier GR.3/Fujimi 1/72nd Ju 87D-3

  • Member since
    February 2011
  • From: Bent River, IA
Posted by Reasoned on Monday, April 28, 2014 5:41 PM

They are from a Big Ed PE set, it is an improvement over the plastic for sure.  I'm still up in the air concerning open or closed CP.  Thanks Bish, just about ready for some paint.

Science is the pursiut of knowledge, faith is the pursuit of wisdom.  Peace be with you.

On the Tarmac: 1/48 Revell P-38

In the Hanger: A bunch of kits

  • Member since
    April 2007
  • From: Twin Towns, MN
Posted by MAgather on Thursday, May 1, 2014 1:07 AM

Reasoned, looks great. Keep it up, and you'll beat me to the finish!

Good Modeling,
  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Tuesday, May 6, 2014 10:26 AM

My plan was to do the Pz III for the N African GB and then start on my 335. But I have had to put the Panzer on hold as I don't have the paint or figures I need. So to that end, I have made a start on the 335. I have just got the pit painted, once that's weathered and all together, I will get some pics.

And looks like I am going to have some fun with fit issues on this one.

I am a Norfolk man and i glory in being so

 

On the bench: Airfix 1/72nd Harrier GR.3/Fujimi 1/72nd Ju 87D-3

  • Member since
    February 2011
  • From: Bent River, IA
Posted by Reasoned on Tuesday, May 6, 2014 9:02 PM

Which kit Bish?

Science is the pursiut of knowledge, faith is the pursuit of wisdom.  Peace be with you.

On the Tarmac: 1/48 Revell P-38

In the Hanger: A bunch of kits

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Wednesday, May 7, 2014 6:29 PM

Its the Dragon B-4 kit. The pit is almost done so will have some pics soon. Been having some fun with the wings.

I am a Norfolk man and i glory in being so

 

On the bench: Airfix 1/72nd Harrier GR.3/Fujimi 1/72nd Ju 87D-3

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Friday, May 9, 2014 3:00 AM

Before I forget and go to far, here some pics of my progress so far. This is the kit I'm doing.

I am just adding a simple Eduard PE set. The kit comes with both engines but I would be fitting those. The cockpit is where most of the PE went. Sorry for the poor pics, I really struggle to get decent photo's of these, the small size and dark colours don't help. I need to work on this.

Despite Dragons bad reputation, my previous two Dragon aircraft builds were pretty nice. But this one is proving the rule. The wing tips had to be removed and extensions added and there are fillets along the inside leading edge of the wing, which I assume are to accommodate the wing guns in the B-2 kit. The fit on all of these and the wing to fuselage attachment is not brilliant. Theres still some more sanding a filling to do, but I think you get the idea.

The camera parts are replicated by 2 PE disks, but I am not keen on those. So I plan on drilling out 2 holes and fitting wind deflectors and clear plastic over the ports.

I am a Norfolk man and i glory in being so

 

On the bench: Airfix 1/72nd Harrier GR.3/Fujimi 1/72nd Ju 87D-3

  • Member since
    February 2011
  • From: Bent River, IA
Posted by Reasoned on Friday, May 9, 2014 6:56 AM

Wow Bish, your office looks very detailed, much different from the Mono kit. Looks like the wing roots have the same fit issues though.

Science is the pursiut of knowledge, faith is the pursuit of wisdom.  Peace be with you.

On the Tarmac: 1/48 Revell P-38

In the Hanger: A bunch of kits

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Friday, May 9, 2014 9:47 AM

Thanks, the kit cockpit is pretty bare, no seatbelts or detail on the side instruments, most of that is PE. And ye, theres quite a gap on the wing roots as well, so a bit to do before I go any further.

I am a Norfolk man and i glory in being so

 

On the bench: Airfix 1/72nd Harrier GR.3/Fujimi 1/72nd Ju 87D-3

  • Member since
    February 2011
  • From: Bent River, IA
Posted by Reasoned on Saturday, May 10, 2014 9:27 PM

30+ year old decals are not worth a poop.  I now must find a way to save this beast.

Science is the pursiut of knowledge, faith is the pursuit of wisdom.  Peace be with you.

On the Tarmac: 1/48 Revell P-38

In the Hanger: A bunch of kits

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