WWII. ETO - US aircraft - "Say Hello to my little friend!" Group Build

QUOTE: Originally posted by PakNicK-40 Wow,lots of good info.Unfortunately,I do not knw where to look for info.Im trying to look for info on a P-40B within the same Airforce as any bomber as yo described.

Nick - Glad you enjoyed the info and "got it". You're a smart young man. OK. Did a quick web search and think I have found an excellent unit for you to build two planes from. This group has an outstanding record in the Mediterranean Theater (OK - so it's not technically the European Theater - but last time I checked Italy was part of Europe :-) so this unit meets the group build requirements). The fighter squdrons in this unit flew P40s until later in the war when they switched to P51s and P47s. Here is one of the fighter group's web pages http://www.325thfg.org/
Browse through the pages. You will see that this unit, the 325th Fighter Group, was part of the 15th Air Force. They list all of the bomber groups and the fighter groups that were part of the 15th Air Force.

Go to this web address to see one of the bomber groups that was also part of the 15th Air Force http://www.376hbgva.com/index.html

Again browse around. Read the histories and so on...

RIght here you've got P40s and B24s flying at same time with same Air Force. Now what you have to do is pick out a particular bomber group and squadron and get a look at how they marked their planes. Then pick out a fighter group and squadron and see how they marked their P40s. After you pick out the units your planes will represent - try to write down their "Order of Battle" like I did for my planes...

You know...

15th Air Force
?? Bomber Group
?? Bomber Squadron

15th Air Force
?? Fighter Group
?? Fighter Squadron

Let me know how it goes...

Here's something I found on another website - impressive stories about P40's flying combat against German fighters...honestly i, like a lot of people, that the P40 was just a so-so plane that didn;t really match up well against other early WW2 fighter planes - guess I was wrong...

In Italy the 325 Fighter Group, commonly know as "The Checker-Tailed Clan" amassed one of the best kill to loss ratios of any fighter group in the European Theater. With a yellow and black checkerboard adorning the tail of their P-40s (and later P-47s and P-51s), they flew many sorties against more numerous German forces, and won most of the time. In 1943 the 325th won two major engagements. On July 1, 22 checker-tailed P-40s were making a fighter sweep over southern Italy when they were jumped by 40 Bf-109s. After an intense air battle, the result was half of the German aircraft shot down for the loss of a single P-40. There was a similar situation on the 30th of July, again over Italy, when 35 Bf-109s ambushed 20 P-40s. On this occasion, 21 German fighters were shot down, again for the loss of a single P-40. Because the pilots of the 325th were trained to maximize the P-40's strengths and minimize its weaknesses, it became a lethal opponent for the German fighters. The final record of "The Checker-Tailed Clan's" P-40s was 135 Axis planes shot down (96 were Bf-109s), for only 17 P-40s lost in combat.

This is from website http://www.chuckhawks.com/p40.htm

Talk to you later.

randy

Wow,lots of good info.Unfortunately,I do not knw where to look for info.Im trying to look for info on a P-40B within the same Airforce as any bomber as yo described.

QUOTE: Originally posted by PakNicK-40 I maye interested in this build,so what you are saying Is I have to build 2 aircraft from the same squadron?

Nick - you've absolutely got the right idea. I want to create a pair of planes, bomber and a "little friend" (as the bomber crews used to call their escort fighters) from the same unit.

The thing is, bombers and fighters weren't in the same squadrons - but squadrons of fighters and bombers were in the same 'air forces'. Don't know how much you know about old Army Air Force unit sizes and organization - I only know a little - but the way a military unit (air force or army or navy) is organized is called its "Order of Battle". In WW2 the Army Air Force "Order of Battle" had several special names for various size units of airplanes and they would organize the command structure based upon what type of mission the planes performed...

Keep in mind, this is only one army infantry scout/sniper’s general description of how it worked so you get the idea – there are more specifics we could get into but I am not the most qualified person to dig into that and I just want to share the basic concept with you…

Here are the names/words they used to describe units of planes....this helped them to organize command and function of the planes and keep track of these resources

Air Force (all kinds of planes, bombers, fighters, reconnaissance, troop carrier and cargo, etc – made up of 3 or 4 commands)
Command (specific kinds of missions – fighter, bomber, troop carrier - made up of 3 or 4 wings)
Wing (even more specific – medium bomber, heavy bomber, made up of 3 or 4 groups)
Group (usually one type of plane for one type of mission, made up of 3 or 4 squadrons)
Squadron (the guys you fly with regularly – about 12 to 20 planes)

An 'Air Force' (hundreds of planes - all kinds of different planes!) was made up of smaller units called 'Commands’ (there are fighter commands and bomber commands - even transport commands for moving cargo and troops). ‘Commands’ are still huge - a lot of planes like maybe over a hundred! But at the ‘Command’ level they start to separate into specific kinds of aircraft. In other words, fighters aren't found in bomber ‘commands’ and so on. And ‘commands’ were specific but still had different types of planes. Like you could have a ‘bomber command’ (pretty specific mission right?) but it had B17s and B26s (two very different planes able to do very different bombing missions!). And a ‘fighter command’ might have escort/interceptors and ground attack fighters in it. Like P51s strictly with machine guns for air-to-air and P47s outfitted with rockets and bombs for ground attacks!

Then ‘commands’ are made up of smaller units called ‘wings’. At the ‘wing’ level you could still have more than one kind of plane in the ‘wing’ – but now they’re getting more specific with the mission. Example - for bombers, at the wing level they have sorted them into say 'medium bomber wings’ (like the B26) and 'heavy bomber wings’ (like the B17 and B24).

Wings are made up of smaller units called ‘Groups’. At group level the fighters are organized now into say 'bomber escort and interceptor groups' and 'fighter/bomber or attack groups' (you know - for attacking ground targets in close support of troops on the ground). At 'Group' level you usually had the same model of plane outfitted to do the same kind of job.

'Groups' are made up of smaller units called 'Squadrons' and this is the small unit level - say 12 to 20 planes (serviceable and ready for flying).

So anyway – that’s the basic idea.

What I propose is that we build a bomber and fighter from the same Air Force. With appropriate markings for the Squadron and Group that they were part of... As an example here’s the “Order of Battle” for the two planes I am going to build.

The bomber…a B26-B…

9th U.S. Air Force
9th Bomber Command
99th Bombardment Wing (Medium)
391st Bomber Group
575th Bomber Squadron


The fighter…a P47-D…

9th U.S. Air Force
9th Fighter Command
84th Fighter Wing
50th Fighter Group
10th Fighter Squadron

I had to do some Internet research to find units that served in the same Air Force but to me that’s quite a lot of fun. Sort of like a history-detective thing. This is also how I found out what their markings were for the same period of service – for my pair I will mark them as they would be for a post D-Day mission…June 1944.

Questions? Need help finding a pair of planes from the same Air Force? Send me an eMail if you need more information…

I maye interested in this build,so what you are saying Is I have to build 2 aircraft from the same squadron?