Either way will work fine. However, remember to think several steps ahead.  If you choose not to carve the hull as I have done, will it have implications later on.  Think about how the planks of the counter (which are above the wales and left natural) would be treated.  You would have to either carve a step into the hull there or feather the bottom-most plank into the hull.  There are other ways to plank the counter also, I just wanted to make sure that when you are deciding how to approach the planking that you consider all of the planked areas including the counter at the stern.  I find that this pre-construction planning is as interesting and challenging as the actual build. 

 

Thank you for the discussion about it,  it is refreshing to think through these procedures as a group.  A worth while topic might I add.

 

Chuck

Actually, after giving it some thinking if you use planking that is 1/32" thick above the wales it may not be thick enough to build up the bulwarks.  I chose the 1/16" planking because it would be stronger and and thicker once the bulwarks were formed.  This way you could sand inside and out to establish the proper hull shape.  Two layers of 1/32" planking will not give you much to work with afterwards. 

You could always use a third layer inboard but that defeats the purpose of saving time carving the step into the hull.  The hull is extremely soft and isnt that difficult to carve once you get the hang of it.  You just have to discipline yourself to remove only small shavings as you slice the the hull to the desired shape. 

 

Good luck at any rate.  I hope this is helping you and confusing the situation.

Chuck

Gentlemen,
thank your for your attention to these details. I have been so busy today. I am going to catch up with all the discussion about the planking. It sounds very interesting and unique !  Thanks guys for posting your suggestions. This is great ! Some great ideas already !


Donnie

Chuck,

Good point about the counter and the thickness of the bulwarks with using 1/32 planking.  With respect to the counter, in addition to the feathering option, it seems to me that it would be possible to add a piece to the stern just as you did but 1/32" thick rather than 1/16.  I think that would leave the step to butt the planks against.

With respect to the bulwark thickness, perhaps using 1/16" for the inboard planking would add enough for strength and leave some for shaping.  That would still leave the outside planking at 1/32". 

Any comment on those approaches?

And yes, this part is fun isn't it.

Bruce

Bruce:

I think that the idea of adding an extra thickness along the counter and then using the 1/32" planks above that would work. Its a little extra carving and fairing, but if you are up to it, give it a try. Wood is very forgiving so if it doesn't meet your expectations, you can always pop it off with a flat bladed knife and start over. This is one of the things I enjoy about working with wood.

The use of 1/16" thick plank on the inner bulwarks is something I am not sure how it would work. I would be worried about the thicker planking on the inside distorting the smooth run of the thinner outside plank. I think I leave that one to Chuck since it is regarding his ideas. :)

Russ

As far as I know, we are still hanging with the June 10th start date. I believe that scottrc will have his kit in by the mid June date. I think it is proper to wait until June 10th. I know that some may be very anxious, and I can't blame you for wanting to start in some fashion. I wlll tell you honestly that the only thing I have done is cleared and cleaned off my workbench. I have some modifications that I have had to do to prepare for the wooden ship. I needed to fashion me a woodworking vise that has wooden jaws in it.
If I remember, I picked up my vise from Lowes about a year ago and I am just now installing it with wooden jaws.
The Columbian is from Lowes and the Wilton is from Home Depot (same unit but diff color)

Columbian®
6-1/2" Woodcraft Vise

Item #: 212038       Model: 33176

----------------------------------------------------

Wilton
6 1/2 In. Woodcraft Vise   Model 33176

I had some Popular laying around and I milled out two pieces for the jaws - didn't want the metal of the vise digging into the model.

This is the Columbian under at $15.00 from Lowes.

The only other thing is that I have started looking at the plans - most of my time is just modifying the workbench. For those that already have their kits in hand I would not blame you for start looking ahead and studying how you might want to build it. For me I know it will be hard to wait, but in the spirit of keeping with the GB, I wish to wait until June 10 so that everyone will have theirs in hand. But, like I said for those that already have it, you have the luxury of studying things over before then.

Donnie

The Mail Lady Rings Twice....

Received my package from Model Shipways today!! 

 

 

That is fantastic Alan !  I know that you are excited. What do you think of the kit so far ?

Donnie

It's going to be interesting to be building three styrene kits and one wooden kit at the same time...bought a new set of dremel sanding drums (old ones were almost flat, like 3,000 grit) for the occasion!  Ticktockticktock...

              greg

Good Greif Greg !
How do you do it? I am amazed. I can only do one at a time.

Donnie

Tonight I have settled down and decided to get the manual out for a good intro reading and seeing what this ship is all about. I was wondering if any of you have done the same?

I must admit that in reading the first few pages in "shaping the hull" , I am either slightly confused or something. I did download Chucks PDF's and really hadn't had too much of a chance to look at those, but what little taste I have seen, they seem to be very well written.

I don't want to hop ahead of anyone becuase I think that we have one modeler left that will be getting theirs in shortly.

What is everybodies impression of the kit so far of those that have it in hand? I noticed that at the beginning of reading that it says that there are different ways to make the hull and they do leave it to a modelers experience and decisions about how to do the hull.

I must say that I hate making decisions like this - now I don't know if I want to plank it or just build it from plans or what the heck to do.

I would like to get some opinions and advise. This is going to be interesting becuase I don't think that any two Sultanas are going to be the same

Donnie

Hard to say on my end...I know what I would like it to look like (aaaarrrgh matey), but as to the planking and all...hmmm.  Do want to build a jig for the ratlines,though.

Greg,

I want to design a jig for the Ratlines too. I have an idea, but it has not materialized yet. When I get a chance I will post my idea with some pics of the drawings that I will make. If anyone is interested, then they can build it too. The problem with designing something like that is to design it where everyone has basic tools and equipment to make it.

Donnie

 

if you design it, I'm sure we'll all be grateful for the work...I'm lucky to have a full shop here, and if anyone needs one, I'm sure we could work out an arrangement.

Donnie asked me to keep an eye on this thread and offer suggestions if and when I thought it appropriate to do so.  So here's my first suggestion.  Don't make a big deal out of the ratlines.  They aren't anywhere near as difficult as so many people seem to think.

The Sultana has just about the simplest rig of any eighteenth-century vessel you're going to find.  There are three shrouds on each side of each of the two masts.  The ratlines would be spaced about a scale foot apart (different contemporary sources give slightly different dimensions, but a foot is a good average).  On this kit, that means a ratline spacing of 3/16".  Anybody who has sufficient manual dexterity to build that model at all can rig those ratlines - to scale, with genuine clove hitches - in a couple of hours.  My guess is that building any sort of "jig" arrangement would take considerably longer than rigging the ratlines "right."  (I never like to assert that there are "right" and "wrong" ways of building models, but this particular instance seems to call for a partial exception.)

All you need is some sort of guide to establish the spacing.  Cut a piece of white cardstock - something like a note card will do fine - to fit between the channel and the crosstrees, inside the shrouds.  Draw a series of lines on the paper, 3/16" apart.  Fit the paper inside the shrouds and go to work.  My guess is that, if you haven't done any of this sort of thing before, tying the three clove hitches in the first ratline will take you between ten and fifteen minutes.  The second will take five or six minutes, and by the time you get to the top you'll be rigging one ratline per minute - and wondering why people make such a fuss about tying ratlines.

The trickiest part of rigging this particular model probably will be the deadeyes and lanyards.  There you may indeed benefit from the use of a simple jig, in the form of a stiff piece of wire to keep the spacing between the deadeyes consistent.  Personally, I've never had much luck with jigs of that sort.  It does take some practice to get the deadeyes spaced consistently and the tension on the shrouds more-or-less even; don't get discouraged if you don't get it right the first time and have to start over.  But once you get the hang of it, it's not particularly difficult or time-consuming.  Believe me, if you take any shortcuts (phony deadeyes, ratlines glued across the shrouds, etc.) they'll haunt you every time you look at the finished model.  My guess is that building that entire kit will take between seventy and a hundred hours.  (That guess may be on the low side; I'm notoriously inept at estimating such things.)  Rigging all the deadeyes and lanyards may take four or five hours, and rigging all the ratlines may take two or three.  That's not a high percentage of the total.

As I have already mentioned in an earlier exchange, I initially was leaning to planking the hull in the manner described by Chuck, then went towards building it according to the plans and now I am thinking of planking the hull above the wales with 1/32" planking.  I think that I could use the thinner planks and then not necessarily step the hull as Chuck did.  I have not quite sorted out how to handle the bulwarks but think that I may plank the outsides and trim the insides down to the proper thickness taking into account the 1/32" planking.  Those wonderful plans may well change however after a good sleep and some sober second thought.  Not that the initial back and forth has been done with anything but with a sound and sober mind by the way.

As to the rigging, I think the suggestion as to how to do the ratlines is excellent and they will be less of a problem than getting all the other rigging tensioned correctly and hanging so that it looks as it should.  There is quite a bit of sawdust to get spread around before worrying about that however.

With respect to the rigging however, I would love to hear from someone who has rigged the kit about how suitable to thread that is included is for the job.  Are other thicknesses needed and is there enough of what is included?  If I have to get more, I would like to start looking into that fairly soon.

Bruce 

 

BCS wrote:

I am thinking of planking the hull above the wales with 1/32" planking.  I think that I could use the thinner planks and then not necessarily step the hull as Chuck did.  I have not quite sorted out how to handle the bulwarks but think that I may plank the outsides and trim the insides down to the proper thickness taking into account the 1/32" planking. Bruce

I think that this is a good idea myself. I am very tempted to try what you are saying here on mine as well. But, I will wait and see. This is really the only part that I am in a quandry about is to plank or not to and where? But like I said, I like the idea that you have presented just now.

Donnie

I built my Sultana about thirty years ago, and I'm sure the thread packaged with it today is different from the stuff I got.  If it comes with the "cotton-poly mix" that MS sells separately, I'd say - go ahead and use it.  It's good stuff, with a color and lay that really look like rope.

One easy way to improve the look of a ship model's rigging is to use as wide a variety of line diameters as possible.  In reality, even the rigging of a little ship like the Sultana would involve a dozen or so line sizes.  The kit manufacturers usually scrimp a little that way, offering two or three.  It might be worth ordering an additional two or three, at least.  You might be surprised at how much that changes the appearance of the finished model. 

Two golden rules about rigging line:  1.  When in doubt regarding size, err on the small side.  (You're unlikely to make the ratlines too small, for example.)  2.  When in doubt regarding color, err on the dark side.

The photo of the finished model at the beginning of the thread (from the Model Expo site, I assume) is actually a pretty good guide to rigging the kit.  (Light years ahead of the awful pictures on the boxes of most plastic sailing ship kits.)  Please notice the yards on the foremast.  The builder has correctly put them in the lowered positions, where they would normally be unless the sails were set.  I have two quibbles with the rigging of that model.  The running rigging material is far too light (it seems to be white thread, or close to it), and I can't imagine why the builder made the footrope stirrups black and the footropes themselves white.  There's room for a good bit of discussion about the authentic color of rigging line, but the footropes and stirrups almost certainly would have been black (or the very dark brown imparted by a coating of tar).

Just in case anybody hasn't figured it out - the essential rigging tools are two pairs of tweezers (preferably a small one with sharp points and a long one with bent tips), and a small pair of scissors that are capable of making clean cuts right at the tips of the blades.  The ship model suppliers sell some other "rigging tools," but I've never found them especially helpful.

I can feel the momentum building as the group build gets under way.  I just wanted to let everyone who is interested that chapter 4 of my Sultana guide is now available on the www.modelshipworld.com forum.  I am very close to being able to rig the model.  Only the rail on the quarter deck remains.  I am planning on using some of the rigging line supplied with the kit but will also be making my own to supplement it.

I think the planking approach that Bruce mentioned is a great approach amongst many possibilities.  I would suggest though; that the planking above the wales be installed first.  This way, you can sand the planking closer to the correct hull profile before adding the wales below them.  I would use a batten to establish the correct run of the planks, marking the top of the wales along the hull with a reference line. I hope I can contribute in a positive way to the build.

 

Chuck

 

Chuck,
as far as I am concerned, you have really contributed to this build in so many ways - I personally am just thankful that we have so much talent here at this SGB.

I am sure that I have some dumb questions in the making and I will be asking. Your Sultana of what I have seen is very nice appeal with warm colors.

Thank you again for sharing with us your talent !

Donnie

Dang good thing that I bought the kit before I read that four page article...Wow !  Looks like this one is going to take some tiiiiiiiiiiiiiiimmmme !  I doubt mine will be anywhere near as neat, but it sure is fun to see a master at work.

             greg

Chuck,

Thanks for the suggestion on an order of doing the planking and wales.

You mentioned that you would be using some of the supplied rigging line and making some of your own.  I am quite interested in what additional line over and above what is with the kit is going to be either necessary or desireable.  Any guidance on that?

Bruce

Funny you should mention that.  I was just checking my stash of rigging line.  The kit came supplied with two diameters of rigging in black and two 1 diameter of rigging in tan.

 

I have enough existing stock to use three diameters of each.  I will be going an additional size smaller with the black rigging (standing).  With the tan rigging (running rigging) I will add a smaller diameter and create a third larger one to use for the anchor cables.  The kit did not come supplied with line for the anchor cables.  This will be the only rigging that I will create using a rope walk.  Otherwise I have enough to complete the model.  I agree with some earlier comments that the black rigging sometimes looks too black.  I will be changing that.  But you folks have a long way to go before you have to start thinking about it.

 

Chuck

Bruce:

The rigging plans have been tweaked over the years so I think the plans for the current version are much better than the older versions I have seen 20 years back.

If you look closely at the rigging plans they will give you the actual size for each line or at least mine have that information. Some of those sizes are represented in the kit and others you can buy. You can either make up or buy a dozen different lines that you can use for absolute (well not really) accuracy or you can approximate and use a half dozen different sizes that are all very close and still get a very nice effect.

For those who want to try and color their own line, I have found that Minwax Jacobean Stain looks a lot like what Stockholm tar might have looked like. This is very good for standing rigging. You get a deep deep dark brown rather than stark black. A quick dip in Minwax Special Walnut gives a nice even tan color that looks pretty good for running rigging.

Russ

 

 

I hope I don't get thrown over-board for this, but I also noticed that http://www.micromark.com has some rigging line. I have not scrutinized it, but it is at least an effort to go to the site and see. If you go to the search and type in rigging, it will come up with various rigging thread. I hope not to give Mr. Tilley a fit becuase I am mentioning this, but hey,, just throwing ideas out there.
Also, I personally have found that just about any hobby store will have Bead making materials and for instance Hobby Lobby has hundreds and hundreds of various lines and threading. I know that this is not what everybody is looking for, but I found my stuff in the Jewelry making section. I am not an expert on rigging line, but I have come up with some ideas just by looking in the most unthought of places.

Donnie

The line MicroMark sells is described as "cotton with a hard finish" - presumably some sort of coating.  It looks excellent in the pictures.  Experienced ship modelers generally shy away from cotton; it tends to be flimsy, fuzzy, flabby stuff, and is reputed not to hold up well.  It also seems to react more to changes in humidity than either silk or linen, but I'm not sure there's actual evidence to confirm that.  If MicroMark's supplier has found a way to eliminate the fuzz, the same coating may take care of the humidity problem and it may well be a nice material.  My biggest reservation about it is that, at least in the catalog I've got, it only comes in two sizes. 

The preferred rigging material among the veterans is, and has been for years, linen.  Those there are who claim that linen is the only fabric that really lasts.  On the basis of what I've seen personally, I think they're mistaken.  When I was working at the Mariners' Museum I worked on quite a number of old models whose rigging was made of lots of materials, and I couldn't detect any consistent patterns of deterioration.  The linen rigging of the famous Crabtree models, for instance, was showing its age pretty clearly; some lines were on the verge of snapping, particularly at spots where they ran through fittings that were made out of acidic woods, or where drops of varnish had been splashed on them.  On the other hand, the cotton and silk rigging of some other models of similar age looked as good as new.  On the other hand, some old silk thread that I've seen has snapped on a gentle yank.  In my opinion atmospheric conditions and the care a model receives are far more important to its longevity than the rigging material. If you find some cotton thread that looks like real rope, and is the right diameter, I say - use it.

My own preference for a long time, as I indicated earlier, has been silk.  I've got evidence in my living room that a model rigged with silk thread, kept in a plexiglas case in reasonably well controlled temperature and humidity conditions, can easily last 28 years.  (I finished my little H.M.S. Bounty in 1978, and its silk rigging literally looks as good as new.)  Lots of modelers have reservations about synthetic fibers, because they haven't had time to demonstrate their longevity.  But Harold Hahn, one of the best in the business, uses nylon line exclusively in his models, and I've never heard that any of his rigging has disintegrated.  If modelers want to lie awake at night worrying about whether their rigging will last 200 years or fall apart after 100, that's their privilege; personally I have other things to occupy my mind.

I would have reservations about mixing rigging materials on a model, for fear that changes in humidity might make different lines react differently.  Otherwise, though, my personal approach is to use whatever material looks and handles best.

Hello,  I am new to forum.  This is great though as I am just finishing the Black Prince and have already purchased the Sultana as my next project.  My wife bought the Black Prince for me 2 years ago after knee surgery to give me something to do and I am hooked on building wooden ships now.  I figured I would try to sold hull and try more detailing then I did on the plank on bulkhead Black Prince.  I await the June 10 start date. 

Dan, 

I have been thinking of planking above the wale,  I had also thought of planking below the wales but have decided to go with the paint only for below.  It seems that the majority opinion is for 1/32 thick planking above the wales.  How about the inboard side,  the pictured model and the instructions lead me to believe that there is no planking.?

Dan,

Welcome to the great debate on how to deal with the hull.  I think if you look at the build guide that Chuck has done, you will see what is a really well thought out, and in his case a well executed, method of planking the hull with 1/16" planks.  I can only speak for myself, but why I am thinking about using 1/32" planking is that I think I can get the effect of having planks without having to trust my carving skills to carve out only part of the hull an even 1/16" all around.  Using 1/32" planks and then sanding them down should I think keep the dimensions pretty close to what they should be. 

As to to the bulwarks, we have already had a bit of discussion about that that you can see on previous pages here.  At the moment, I am thinking that if I do go with the 1/32" planking, I will plank the outside up to the top of the bulwarks on the outside and then carve the inside so that the bulwarks are the proper width.  I really like the approach that Chuck has taken with two thicknesses of overlapping 1/16" planks but think that method may not work so well with 1/32" planking because they are too thin.  Please dive in with your news, views and matters of import.  The more ideas the better.

Bruce 

 

  All I can say is: " this is going to be one hell of a group build!"   It is going to be fascinating to see how everyone does things differently...perfect!

                    greg