Which Tamiya color for German armor?

Jack... Thank you that is what I ment those colors and cote are what I was talking about.

blackdog62

While you experts are here and we are in north Africa can anyone have any info on dak uniform color there's a darker color I can't find. I think dragon is calling it  kaki green.

 

Not exactly sure what is meant the darker colour for DAK uniforms.  Dragon I think refer to MrColor paints - so khaki green might work.  The official tropical uniform issued was an olive green, which can look dark when new.  Long overcoats were a brown shade, as seen in this link:

http://afrikakorps.forumcrea.com/viewtopic.php?id=94

  Vallejo has a dedicated paint set:

regards,

Jack

The Tigers for Tunisia arrived from the factory already painted in 8000/7008 - and we have to assume that the Tigers for southern Russia and Italy also had those colours. Photos of the first Tigers in s.Pz.Abt.505 back this up. The reason is probably that the Tiger factory intended to use up their old paint stocks.

The crews may have added more green paint as you said.

The 501 battalion definitely had the newer tropical paint RAL 8020 and used it on new parts that they added to their Tigers.

You should ignore Dragon's paint instructions in 6608, see here:

http://tiger1.info/models/products/DR6608

Now, here's the interesting thing. I don't think the Tropical colours were halted when the Dunkelgelb arrived. I can find many photos of Tigers that seem to have them in mid 1943.

David

Oldgoat.. Thank you for responding I hadn't considered the different type of paint being used on aircraft but that only makes sense.

So then some of those documentary showing retreating German armor near the of the war being green could be accurate. I know those programs use color matching using the tone off black & white shades

The Apocalypse ww2 documentary states there's is very accurate color match.

From 1940 to 1943 Panzers were all dark gray. April '43 onwards they were dark yellow. There is debate at the very end about red primer being a base coat. We do know dark green was a base coat at the factories in late '44 - '45 for a bit. 

That said, when referring to the DML "Tunisian Tiger" see my post above. RAL 7008 is sometimes referred to as "Khaki Green". In fact I mix Tamiya Olive Drab and Khaki 50/50 to replicate the color on my builds.

There are all sorts of theories and while the use of Luftwaffe paint isn't out ofthe question, it's a matter of logistics.

It takes a heck of a lot more of the quality aircraft laquer to paint a tank than an Me 109.

While you experts are here and we are in north Africa can anyone have any info on dak uniform color there's a darker color I can't find. I think dragon is calling it  kaki green. The common German color is normally dark yellow ? I have resurched a lot of panzer colors and haven't  seen it mentioned before. I have seen pictures or those colors on documentary with the redone colors may not be accurate and don't cover co!or an ways. That's wy I was interested in hearing about primer red as a base color.

I recently picked up dragons new version of there Tunisian tiger and there asking for that color. The kit # 6608 kaki green. any body ever heard of panzers using Luftwaffe rim 79 ? 

On would think they would use what they could get. But the germans where pretty strict about orders.

RAL 8000/7008 was used from roughly April '41 to May '42.

RAL 8020/7027 was used from April-May '42 to April '43.

There is plenty of evidence to suggest DY painted tanks and half tracks arrived late in the theatre. It has been suggested, and photos seem to substantiate this, that the DY vehicles were sometimes camouflaged with RAL 7008 which better suited the terrain in Tunisia.

Plenty of tropen painted tanks and equipment were diverted to Russia.

Also remember Italy and Sicily were considered "tropical" as well. Lots of photos of tropen panzers there.

One contridiction to official policy were the Tigers of sPzAbt 501 and 504. They were most definately RAL 8000 with RAL 7008 camouflage patterns. This in late '42 and early '43.

My guess, and that's all it is, is that the "Green Tigers" of legend are nothing more than a misconception of the RAL 8000/7008 tropen colors.

Think about this, you arrive in Tunisia with your golden brown painted Tigers. You set about spraying the green on as a camo pattern. Looking around you realize this isn't a desert climate like Libya. You really need some more green on your huge Tiger tank.

My guess is that the 2/3rds to 1/3rd ratio went out the window and the patterns were more like 50/50. 

Byrden

"Basicly [sic] you have your three basic colors for use on German armor from 1943 onwards."

You're ignoring the Tropical camouflage colours. They were issued to units in southern Russia.

 

David

 

 

Weren't the Tropical colors pre 1943? Used more in 1941 and 1942 and replaced in early 1943?

"Basicly [sic] you have your three basic colors for use on German armor from 1943 onwards."

You're ignoring the Tropical camouflage colours. They were issued to units in southern Russia.

David

I agree that camo is something different for the Axis it reminds me of that camo the army air corp used on the p-40s for there camouflage testing can't remember the name maybe dazle or something like that. It was pretty wild looking.

Thanks black dog. Everything about this model is daunting. I spent all weekend getting the torsion bars installed.

I will probably order a dozen for starters. i figure there is around 10 square feet of surface area.

Ixion, I enjoy the back-n-forth; I think these discussions are fun and open the mind to new possibilities and realities. 

i have to say that I have one softcover book that has made mention of white being used as a camo color, I believe attributing it to tanks manufactured in Czechoslovakia at the time? Maybe it just mentioned that some Hetzers were SEEN in 4-color including white, which we know happened...

i never saw that camp before, and that Bison in the 4-color. Pretty provocative..

OK thank you that is modern looking camo. Would be nice to see that in color Just so happened I just seen this a few days ago a different pic. Just can't remember where.

Thank you for diging it up and posting it. I never understood wy america didn't use more camouflage.

Well, I've thoroughly hijacked this thread, but it's a 7 year old zombie, so I don't care...

Here are two of the Leibermuster photos, taken in Czechoslovakia at the end of the war;

Blackdog62, I think this was the thread on missing-lynx, but all the links are now dead;

http://www.network54.com/Forum/47207/message/1106678238/Captured+from+%26quot%3BArchives+Couleur%26quot%3B

I think I saved the images on my external HD, but my filing system leaves much to be desired. I'll see if I can find and post them. ML's less than optimized search engine will bring back several returns for leibermuster if you want to wade through the chaff.

I'll be back...

Thank you for the post about that one grundierfarbe I had no idea that was used as a base coat.

In my studies I have came across photos of late war tanks that was confusing.

I thought it was a over use of rotbroun there red/brown mix. So thanks again.

Do you know of any info sites on the leibermuster camo. I'm also interested in ww2 uniforms ?  I may know it by another name or not at all.

Karl, I don't think this green paint is anything different than good ol' RAL 6003, it's just that it's appearance is possibly different. Possibly a poor dilution ratio, mixed with other paint, another paint was substituted, bad photography, we just don't know. It's just that some people, myself included, think it looks different. Others have commented that they see an odd-looking concrete grey shade of Dunkelgelb on the JT and no real yellow at all, others see black paint here too. I don't know what the grey is, burned something else, zinc phosphate, a grungy-grey shade of Dunkelgelb, who knows?  For years it has been stated that there was only one Dunkelgelb, and yet we now know this is not true. We probably can never know exactly what happend in the chaos of the closing stages of the war. Perhaps this is a fluke, we really don't have enough evidence to make any sort of definitive judgement. I'm sort of playing devil's advocate here and bringing some of the more obscure aspects of this topic to the light of day, just for purposes of discussion.

I know I was unaware of the order that Mr Doyle presented concerning the paint schemes found on these vehicles. Sure, everyone by now has heard of the statements made by Mr Jentz which gave rise to the whole exposed red primer being visible, but how many folks has seen it spelled out in this fashion;

"In September 1944 assembly firms were ordered to paint camouflage patterns on vehicles prior to delivery. A later instruction was to paint vehicles in a thin coat of Grundierfarbe Rot RAL 8012 (Red primer undercoat) and then to apply well-thinned stripes and patches, with sharp outlines, of Dunkelgelb RAL 7028 and Gruen RAL 6003 over approximately 50% of the surface." (italics mine). Mr Doyle continues with the addition of white paint to the scheme. Not to blow my own horn, but I have nearly 500 books on German armor and WWII, not one of them states the use of white paint on exterior surfaces. White-wash, sure, but not white paint. Some folks even talk of exterior Elfenbein being used....Prominent, well-respected experts in the field folks...

These red/yellow/white and +/- green vehicles that I just posted are still considered heresy by a great number of people in this hobby.

While I agree that this whole lime green craze lacks substantial evidence, I think we should remain open to the idea that stranger things have happened. Look at the fact that we didn't even know the Leibermuster camo uniforms were actually issued until photos surfaced a couple of years ago. One more oddity I'll throw in, take a look at this 4-toned Grille, what is the fourth color?

Thanks for taking the time to respond to my rant. It's really just an exercise in speculation. Like I said, you won't see my panzers in Key Lime pie any time soon.

Thylacine....I have never built a model that big  ☺ whish I could help but I havent clue how much paint that would take. Sorry

I also agree that that is dark yellow on the panzer 4 I wouldn't think a soldier during that time would paint the inside of a armored door with the camo paint that would be shut up during battle.

Without talking with the persons who put the paint on it. Its all guess work.

As we all know some things never get resolved and just continues on as debates.

Either way its a great topic and  depending on wich side of the fence your on it opens up more model options.

I'm in total agreement about the whole primer-red plus white thing alleged and shown in those photos, IZxion. I have no problem with that. I have had the fortunate opportunity to see the original paint and markings of the Stug III-G which used to (may still?) reside at the Fort Knox Museum of Armor, where the fabled "Panther II used Tobias well. I got to climb in it and around it, and extensively photographed the interior and all the primer red parts and cameo applied to it. A most illuminating day, back in the late 80s.

That model in the link is certainly beautifully-rendered and I can't critique it--if the author believed that there was a green component to the finish of the actual PZ IV, who am I to argue with his interpretation. But I didn'T see it in the photo. What I saw was a mostly Dark Yelolow tank which was photographed at a rather oblique angle in late-afternoon setting, where the "dark" yellow patches are what are being called "light green" and the lighter, grayish/white parts are probably the remnants of some worn whitewash scheme from winter. I think that there's room to argue that the darker yellow pieces could have been simply either left as yellow, and are therefore in-altered, or that they were blocked from whitewash coverage by gear packs or even tank tools and fittings. 

I would be willing to risk my reputation on the assertion that there is NO "light green" on that Jagdtiger, but only Dark Yellow altered by some natural proccess and misinterpreted in the shade of the photo.

I think though, at some point, we have to step back from an "evidential" basis for this question and ask ourselves something more common-sense. Is it more likely that the "light green" is indeed a misreading of what is essentially dark Yellow (with only perhaps a light spraying of Panzer Green "filter" in some small places and on some rare, isolated examples) or a brand new revelation of some hitherto-undiscovered occurance of this new stage of "lime green" painting which could justify its use on almost any late war panzer, as has been seen to be the trend in some modeling circles as of late?

Again, not trying to discourage artistic license or bold experimentation, but I don't think that this new light green craze has much historical evidence to back it up.

That's some crazy cat spots on that tiger. That color on the jagpanzer could it possibly be dunkergelb 1943 which was there new color dark yellow with a green tone in it ?

I also have seen that brite yellow green color being used as panzer olivgrun.

I have also seen it on ww2 Luftwaffe kits and SS camo patterns its really bright.

Just to throw another wrench into the gears, take a look at this runner, a late Hummel, (ex Fort Knox), rebuilt at WTD 41 in Trier;

Now, before everyone throws up over the garish paint, keep in mind this scheme gets the official stamp of approval from none other than Hilary L Doyle. Please acquaint yourself with exposed red primer on 50% of the vehicle. Kinda flips the dominate paradigm on it's head, now doesn't it?

By extension, this confirms the accuracy of these other well-known and much maligned repaints;

Now, I've been extremely sceptical as to the validity of the whole "exposed red primer" craze that has been sweeping the field, but I'm starting to modify my views. If Hilary Doyle says this is 100% the real deal, that's good enough for me. Also note that the color white has been introduced into the mix. This isn't the temporary winter white-wash, but permanent white paint.

Quoting Mr Doyle, please note that this also pertains to the Kotzing Panzer IV and Panther as well;

 We still have much to learn about this topic. It isn't merely a matter of 3 colors, a bucket and a mop. The true situation is far more complicated. I hope Mr Doyle manages to finish the long-awaited tome on German camouflage that he and the late Mr Jentz have labored so long to complete, then maybe we can put this topic to rest...

Something else to think about. While I was looking at the pictures of the Jagdtiger I saw it was knocked out in 1945. I have the Ammo Mig set Late German Camouflages set and it does incule a "lime green". It's rally a lighter color from the Resedgrun RAL6011, in fact all the colors in the set are much lighter and different than the early and mid war sets.

T26E4

According to this article:  On 30 March 1945 a group of 1.Kp. Jagdtigers fought an American armored unit in Schwetzingen, near Heidelberg. Jagdtiger 131 was knocked out in the downtown area at about 200 meters range by a Sherman tank.

 

http://www.thirdreichruins.com/spjabt653.htm

 

Thanks for that!!! I've got a Jagdtiger and have been thinking how to build it, now I have any idea thanks to you. I ever already have the building.

OK, now remember folks, don't shoot the messenger, I'm only relaying the info here, not the charter member of the cult.

As I stated earlier, I believe it was the Kotzing PzIV color photo that kicked off this whole Lime Green craze. Many people have invested A LOT more time into researching this than I have, I'm still sitting on the fence, but I am listening to what they have to say. Please read the whole article, including the comments.

Gentlemen, I give you......Lime Green;

http://www.network54.com/Forum/110741/thread/1386009231/last-1388003257/View+Thread

A comment from Gary Kwan concerning the late war camo scheme on PzIV and Jagdtigers build at Nibelungenwerk;

"Some more Camo information about Nibelungenwerks can share.
When I make research of my PzIV J, I find one interesting color scheme from this factory.
Starting from late Dec 1944, both PZ IV and Jagdtiger were also using RAL8017 Rotbraun as the base color over the vehicles first and then applied RAL7028 Dunkelgelb and RAL6003 Olivgrun.
I can't 100% sure is it all panzers from Nibelungenwerks were using Rotbraun color base or not, but at least Pz IV J and Jagdtiger were in this scheme."

T26E4

According to this article:  On 30 March 1945 a group of 1.Kp. Jagdtigers fought an American armored unit in Schwetzingen, near Heidelberg. Jagdtiger 131 was knocked out in the downtown area at about 200 meters range by a Sherman tank.

 

http://www.thirdreichruins.com/spjabt653.htm

 

 

 

On that page there's another Jagdtiger in color that definitely shows a Pz. Green coat of camo which is very much what you would expect for the correct tone of this paint.

According to this article:  On 30 March 1945 a group of 1.Kp. Jagdtigers fought an American armored unit in Schwetzingen, near Heidelberg. Jagdtiger 131 was knocked out in the downtown area at about 200 meters range by a Sherman tank.

http://www.thirdreichruins.com/spjabt653.htm

Ixion

I too was skeptical of the lime green color that seems to be all the rage these days, then I saw this;

But then there is the color shot of the Octopus Tiger II where the green appears almost black, or more like a dark field grey;

A lot of latitude for sure between these two, for what should be the same color.

 

Not to highjack the thread but does anybody know where this picture was taken? This is just one I've never seen before.

It may also be worth remembering that the JT may have suffered from an internal fire (the collapsed suspension may support this possibility) and the colour of the external paint may have been heat affected.