Tiger II ammunition help please.

Hi James,

I;ve just joined the forums, I also have the big Tiger kit for Christmas. So far I've only drooled over the parts and instructions, haven't started it yet. In going through the instructions I noticed the ammo etched brass labelling is incorrect. Here is what I reckon:

Ammo C is APCBC. The shell would be painted black with a white (or silver?) tip. The etched brass part that the instructions say should go on the base is wrong. They say use the "SPRGR" base which is actually HE.

Ammo B is HE. The shell would be painted olive green or feldgrau.

Ammo C I think is HEAT. I haven't yet found out the colour for this shell.

 Also, the cartridge cases would most likely be made of steel NOT brass, as the tank modelled was built in September 1944 and steel was used for the majority of cases then.

I have some more information at home, so should post some more later on.

Hope that helps a little. I've really enjoyed watching your build of this kit developing.

Andy

Thanks for that Andy. I'm glad that you're enjoying my build. I'll have a close look at the etched shell brass.

Given the number of shells instructed to build and with heat rounds being in short supply I would have thought that Ammo C would be standard AP, Ammo B HE and Ammo A HEAT.

Given that, then,

Ammo A: AP, Steel case with black shell & silver tip

Ammo B: HE, Steel case with grey or dark green tip

Ammo C: HEAT, Steel case with yellow shell maybe?

Just my thoughts. I stand to be corrected.

James

Sorry James, I meant to say:

Mollusc wrote:

Ammo C is APCBC. The shell would be painted black with a white (or silver?) tip. The etched brass part that the instructions say should go on the base is wrong. They say use the "SPRGR" base which is actually HE. Ammo B is HE. The shell would be painted olive green or feldgrau. Ammo A I think is HEAT. I haven't yet found out the colour for this shell.

OK, after a drink and some searching these are the munition types for the KwK43 mounted in the Tiger II

PzGr. 39/43 (APCBC-HE) Armour Piercing Capped Ballistic Capped - High Explosive. This may also have had tracer added.

PzGr. 40/43 (APCR) Armour Piercing Composite Rigid THis had a ballistic cap and a tungsten Core

Gr. 39/3 HL (HEAT) High Explosive Anti Tank.

SPGR HE - High explosive 

According to this page

http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/tiger2.htm

HEAT rounds were rarely used and also were in very short supply!

This page indicates Loadout and quite a lot of detail

http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Quarters/4635/tanks/tiger2/tiger2.htm

So, according tot he instructions in the Trumpeter assembly manual and the above page that indicates that 50% of the loadout was HE then SH2 & PE-B2 must be HE shells and as the majority of bases have Sprgr on then that must mean they are the PE-B2 HE bases. The other shell bases of which each brass sprue has 11 on making a total of 22 and have Pzgr on them must be for the 2 AP types. I don't think Trumpeter has included the HEAT shells as they were aparrantly so rare and hardy used even when available.

so, IMHO:

Ammo C (44) (PE-B2 + SH2) must be the Sprgr HE round

Ammo B (16) (PE-B1 + SH3) Could be the PzGr. 40/43 (APCR) round

Ammo A (8) (PE-B1 + SH1) Could be the PzGr. 39/43 (APCBC-HE) round.

The two AP rounds can be properly ID'd with pictures of the damn things!!!!

How's That?

James

Hi James,

Back again, now at home with all my notes that I've made, based on various books and internet resources, plus an old 88mm HE round I used to own;

Ammo C (the shortest round) is APCBC Pzgr 39/43, we can tell this by the shape of the shell, plus it is shorter than HE/HEAT. 44 rounds is approx 50% of the total tanks capacity, so trumpeter have provided about the right number. The shell would be black with a white cap. I believe the decals (15,16,19) are correct. The correct etched brass base for this shell in the kit is PE-B1 (Pzgr).

Ammo B is HE (Sprgr), again we can tell by the profile of the shell, and it's longer than the APCBC shell. The shell would have been painted feldgrau or olivegreen. Again, decals as per the instructions I believe (ie 13,14,18). PE base would be PE-B2 (Sprgr).

Ammo A, I am 99.99% certain is HEAT, due to it's size, shape and what looks like a contact fuse at the tip. I haven't yet found out what colour the shell would have been painted, or what markings the shell had. PE base would be PE-B2 (Sprgr) I presume.

Now we have a problem with the numbers of parts in the kit.

So we can't put the correct PE base on all the APCBC shells for example. However, I don't think this is a show-stopper, nor the lack of decals, as I think most (or all) of the shells in the hull racks of 2 x 11 shells won't have visible bases.

Sorry for any confusion earlier, but now I've got my notes here that's how I see things now. I still need to find out more about the HEAT round. 

Andy

I'm sorryy to have to disagree with you, Mollusc

Normal load was 50 percent Spgr and remnants being Pzgr. 39/43. A few Pzgr. 40/43 may also be carried for use against enemy's heaviest. Of course, battlefield conditions make these values only indicative.

This, to me means that

Ammo C is the HE round (44)

Ammo B is the APCBC-HE round (16)

Ammo A is the APCR round (8)

I got A & B the wrong way round in my previous post, but the etched brass bases remain the same. The Sprgr base (44) is for the HE round and the Pzgr (total of 22) must be for Ammo A & B. There still isn't enough bases for the rounds in any case as there are, as you pointed out, 72 rounds.

This is academic really as most of the bases will be hidden on the shell racks. Considering the amount of money people are paying for this kit I would have preferred Trumpeter to provide a full 72 bases for the shells and also enough decals for all the shells as well.

I've seen a couple of pictures on the net of shells for the Tiger II. one shell has a green case with a yellow shell with a silver tip and the other has a gold/brass case with a black shell with a silver tip.

James

From the Munster Mueseum:

Now that's great Doog. Thanks Man.

It's easy to match those two shell sizes with the ones in the kit. They look like the two types of AP shells which only means that I have to find the colours for the HE round.

Any clue what paint colours  should use for the cases?

James