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Tiger 1 Initial production, s.Pz.Abt.502, Dragon #6600

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Dre
  • Member since
    June 2007
  • From: here, not over there
Posted by Dre on Wednesday, July 14, 2010 12:38 PM

Byrden

Why not practise your techniques on other plastic objects than your model?

 

Er...  mighty good question....  um..        because I'm an idiot?

  • Member since
    July 2003
  • From: On my kitchen counter top somewhere in central North Carolina.
Posted by disastermaster on Wednesday, July 14, 2010 11:10 AM

Dre

DM, I'm really not trying to disregard your advice- I just don't think that it fits into my game plan (such as it is) at this time.  I just reread your plan and it does make a lot of sense for a future build (a Pz. III N with winterketten?), but I don't think that I could swing another complete strip, respray, new whitewash and all the associated weathering and mud by this Saturday morning.   I have a very hard deadline that I might squeak under if I can get back on plan tonight.....  and that's a big IF.

Hard lessons?   I think that I could write a few chapters in that book, lol.Crying

At the very least, you have given me enough motivation to try and complete this instead of throwing in the towel.

Thumbs 
Up

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b232/gluetank/Decorated%20images/th_T1-4-copy.jpg

 https://i.imgur.com/LjRRaV1.png

 

 

 
  • Member since
    January 2008
  • From: Austria
Posted by Byrden on Wednesday, July 14, 2010 4:14 AM

Why not practise your techniques on other plastic objects than your model?

 

Dre
  • Member since
    June 2007
  • From: here, not over there
Posted by Dre on Tuesday, July 13, 2010 5:39 PM

DM, I'm really not trying to disregard your advice- I just don't think that it fits into my game plan (such as it is) at this time.  I just reread your plan and it does make a lot of sense for a future build (a Pz. III N with winterketten?), but I don't think that I could swing another complete strip, respray, new whitewash and all the associated weathering and mud by this Saturday morning.   I have a very hard deadline that I might squeak under if I can get back on plan tonight.....  and that's a big IF.

Hard lessons?   I think that I could write a few chapters in that book, lol.Crying

At the very least, you have given me enough motivation to try and complete this instead of throwing in the towel.

  • Member since
    July 2003
  • From: On my kitchen counter top somewhere in central North Carolina.
Posted by disastermaster on Tuesday, July 13, 2010 4:57 PM

I DunnoFor me, spraying on white just don't cut it. You only want to give the illusion. For a model that means you don't have to do it just like on the real tank.

Everyone has to find their own way I guess.

Blooming is primarily because of minerals and chemicals in the water, make sure to use distilled water and a drop of Dawn when doing washes with flat acrylics. Much of the blooming can be remedied with light drybrushing.

Lessons learned best are lessons learned hard.

You'll see the results of my technique in an upcoming build I will eventually post. All you have to do is come back here to see how I did it.

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b232/gluetank/Decorated%20images/th_T1-4-copy.jpg

 https://i.imgur.com/LjRRaV1.png

 

 

 
Dre
  • Member since
    June 2007
  • From: here, not over there
Posted by Dre on Tuesday, July 13, 2010 4:16 PM

Disaster Master I do appreciate the advice, really, but I don't know if this is the direction I want to go right now....  perhaps another build.  This method you describe does sound intriguing though...  sort of an oil dot filter writ large?   Actually, it sounds kinda scary!

For the life of me I can't understand why some folks can knock these simple acrylic whitewashes out the first time whereas mine gets completely buggered each time (well, twice now)...   I mean, there I was laying down the white in nice, light mists so as to avoid smears and drips and to build up a tonal variation and then BAM!  tide marks and blooms. 

  • Member since
    July 2003
  • From: On my kitchen counter top somewhere in central North Carolina.
Posted by disastermaster on Tuesday, July 13, 2010 3:51 PM

 I've been a watchin'  ................

http://www.homepurchaseprogram.com/monster2_files/image003.gif

Maybe I can help you out with this bloomin' project..

You obviously have the ability; all you need is a method that is simple. Now at this stage what do you have to lose..... you can learn from this. Besides, you have too much invested here to just quit.

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e105/CommentCrazyGirl/Smileys%20Action/Food%20Cooking/52gy.gif I really think you've been trying to juggle too many nuts at one time.

 

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x43/searcher451/Smileys/ok.gif  just another 15 minutes with the Simple Green.......   you CAN save this.

 

1. Get your original color re-established. I suggest using acrylics - forget the modulation; if you're going to do whitewash, it won't matter anyway.

    A. Forget the hairspray.

    B. Lose the Future.

You won't need either one on this project.

2. Now get some Grumbacher's Academy White oil paint and turpenoid thinner (in the http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:BTofLv7Y2Ys8RM:http://www.jerrysartarama.com/images/resized/75x75/PRODUCTS/OILS/WEBER_MEDIUMS/0007905000000-ST-01-Weber-Turpenoid-Gallon.jpgBLUE can, NOT THE http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:uiAfrhGGBSCwKM:http://i.treehugger.com/turpenoid.gifGREEN ONE!) from Hobby Lobby or wherever.

3. http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh206/SerraTijn/smileys/smiley_paint.gif After repainting the initial color, give it a day.......   relax, this isn't gonna be difficult.

4. Now, squish out a blobhttp://i465.photobucket.com/albums/rr15/nydreamz/Blob.gif of oil paint about one fourth the size of a computer key (not the space bar) on a piece of raw card board. Let it set for about 5 minutes, you won't be using all of it........  I hope.

5. Put your thinner in a drink cap lid and set it right beside your paint on that piece of cardboard. Lay out a range of small paint brushes and napkins and some crumpled toilet paper within easy reach.

 Now, don't be scared..... at this point, you don't have anything to lose. Patience is required here but the results are truly gratifying.

 Okay. Take a breath and try the bottom of the hull first. Yes, I know they didn't whitewash the bottom but this will give you a feel for what you will need to do with the rest of the project.

6. Take a ¼ inch brush and cover the bottom with turpenoid....slop it on ......... good-n-wet.

7. While it's still wet use another brush and lightly jab the titanium white in a spread pattern leaving spaces about the size of a dime...... there's plenty of time to work this so don't worry about that. Crumple up the toilet paper and use it to lightly jab and dab up some of the whitewash. You're wanting to get a random based pattern started here. This is the first of several layers so it doesn't have to be heavy. The wetness will make it look dark but when it dries tomorrow the gray base coat will appear slightly more faded, which is what you want. Get it the way you think it looks right and set it aside until tomorrow.......  patience............

8. Ok, so it's tomorrow. Unless you just really try hard, you'll be able to add a heavier application today without budging yesterday's result. This will be more in the form of a wash....apply it in the same manner. Give it another day.....a bit more faded now ....... hey, it's a hobby and that's what it's supposed to do....you do it in your spare time.

You'll like that dead flat finish you're getting; that's what the cardboard does.

9. Since nobody should be looking under here ,http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee119/orangekitty215/kittylookingunder.jpggive it a try with some streaks by putting a toothpick dallop of white on yesterdays finish. Now dip a small brush in the thinner and just pat it lightly on a napkin twice and carefully/gently drag it down one side of the dot. Might have to do it a few times but if it gets crooked just redampen the brush in the same manner and go down the other side of the dot to straighten it up. You'll need this experience on the upper surfaces. After steak practice .....yeah, take another day....think about what you've done.

10. Alright now; time to drybrush. Go back to your acrylic base color and well, drybrush it on. When it looks just a bit "TOO" overdone, it should be about right. Give it about 20 minutes to dry, gotta love those acrylics.

 By now you should feel more confident in what you're doing and the next step will begin to show the rewards. Back to the oil paint now.

11. http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e105/CommentCrazyGirl/Smileys%20Weather%20Seasonal/upsidedown.gif You're on the bottom of this tank to learn so here we go again. You can do this two ways, take your choice. On a wet surface....place a more widely spaced pattern of white and thin/blend it out quite a lot using the brush and/or the crumpled  toilet paper as a blotter. On a dry surface add thinner a bit at a time and distribute accordingly. The purpose is to gently fade the drybrushing giving the desired illusion of worn whitewash. Remember that you WANT the whitewash to stay in the cracks and crevices because that's how it would go in he real world.

While it's wet you can do a lot ..... but the next day it's there to stay.

You should be getting a feel for it by now so you may have to go back and forth between # 10 and 11 a few times to get it the way you want it to look.

Trust me though, if you play with this, it WILL work out very nicely...... no dullcote needed either. Always give the thinned oils a day to dry and you, time to think.

 

Well, I think I covered it all.....      Here goes.

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b232/gluetank/Decorated%20images/th_T1-4-copy.jpg

 

 

 https://i.imgur.com/LjRRaV1.png

 

 

 
Dre
  • Member since
    June 2007
  • From: here, not over there
Posted by Dre on Tuesday, July 13, 2010 12:33 PM

Objectives met and mission failed AGAIN!   I used MM flat white this time and got nasty tide marks and blooms around the silly putty masking from the paint interacting with the underlying hairspray... whereas the Tamiya white came off way too easily the first time.  

I guess that the Fates do not want me to finish this Tiger....  which is fine by me, as I've just about lost all patience with getting the paint job/whitewash done the way I want.   

Dre
  • Member since
    June 2007
  • From: here, not over there
Posted by Dre on Saturday, July 10, 2010 11:40 AM

The good news, Ben, is that it only took ~15 minutes with some Simple Green, warm water and an old toothbrush to remove all of the paint.  The bad news was that it took most of  4 days to get all that paint on...  Simple Green really removes a fresh acrylic paint job quickly.  Handy stuff.

Going downstairs in a moment to begin the process all over-

Today's objectives-Nato black primer all over, paint the tools, then decanted hairspray on the tools and then the Panzer grey.  I don't think that I'm going to modulate the grey this time- there was too much contrast between the whitewash and the grey to see the tonal variations in the shades of grey from the first go-round.   All of the road wheels will be painted here and now as well.   

Tomorrow's objectives- remove grey from tools and possibly get the whitewash back on.

  • Member since
    September 2009
  • From: Rugby, England
Posted by Hinksy on Saturday, July 10, 2010 7:27 AM

Dude!

I feel your pain! I had to sit and watch as the paint job on my masterpiece Dragon Brummbar (well it was at the time as I'd only been building for 6 months) fell apart in front of my eyes-it was awful Crying

I managed a relative 'save' but she was never the same.

Strip her down, get them tools off as they look superb (unless they have been killed too) and start over. Be strong young Jedi!

Best of luck my friend!

ATVB

Ben Big Smile 

On the Bench - Dragon Pz. IV Ausf. G (L.A.H.) Yes

Your image is loading...

 

Dre
  • Member since
    June 2007
  • From: here, not over there
Posted by Dre on Friday, July 9, 2010 10:59 AM

Svenne, i think that it was a combination of too many things- not enough experience in hairspray methods, too thin a covering paint, too much hairspray, humidity and god know what else.  I used Tamiya flat white, which pulls up just like one wants it to, except that it came up in large sections instead of smaller controllable fragments...  the tank looks like it has leprosy or some other terrible skin disease.  I wasn't able to control the amount of paint lifted up- once it began to lift, it all came off.

At this time, I don't think that I can rescue this by doing anything other than stripping it down and asking for a mulligan.  Three freakin' days of base paint, details and masking all shot to hell..... I am so *(&^*(&%!!!!!

 

But thanks on the exhausts- they at least are still usable!

  • Member since
    December 2005
  • From: Goteborg / Sverige
Posted by Svenne Duva on Friday, July 9, 2010 10:16 AM

David,
Yes, of course I have the link, awesome job :), bin there looking since 2005?
Copright http://tiger1.info, David BYrden

Thanks for the comment on the colour!

Dre,
Very sorry to hear m8!
You are way ahead of me, Your main build looks great, if I would pick one thing I especially like it is the exhasuts! Rust at the knee, rough texture uppwards, looks very good.
Do you allready know why your whitewash went wrong?

Svenne

sic transit gloria mundi

Dre
  • Member since
    June 2007
  • From: here, not over there
Posted by Dre on Friday, July 9, 2010 8:40 AM

Total, complete disaster.  That's the only way to describe the failed whitewash attempt of last night.  Looks like I'm going to have to strip this down to the bare plastic and start over.  I am not a happy camper.

  • Member since
    May 2004
  • From: Kings Mountain, NC
Posted by modelbuilder on Thursday, July 8, 2010 5:42 PM

SuppressionFire

There are 2 kitty's boxed up in my stash 3000 miles away. 1 vintage Tamiya kit, and a DML 3 in 1 'Micheal Wittman' The first has a Lion Roar extensive PE set to help it along. Probably will get some AM tracks as well, the DS ones are showing their age. 

Get the bucket account & post some WIPs!

 

HA!!!!!!!!!!!! Ive got ya beat I have six Tigers, seven if you count the prezimmed King Tiger, in my stash. These include the Academy Early Tiger with full interior and AM  goodies, the first issue of Dragons initial Tiger1 Leningrad, Italeria Tiger 1 H, and three Tamiya Tigers, Afrika Korps, Mid production, and late production

Dre
  • Member since
    June 2007
  • From: here, not over there
Posted by Dre on Thursday, July 8, 2010 3:38 PM

Pictures, eh?  Do you mean ...  holiday photos?  Pictures from the beach, that sort of thing?  I see that you're the discerning sort of chap... 'ere, let me show you these color beauties...

So far, I've got the modulated grey down and I've begun some light wear and weathering on the surfaces and tools before I hit the whitewash.  Since it appears that #3 was in service quite briefly before getting a pretty makeover, I won't beat it up too much before the Russian holiday spectacular.  There's tidemarks galore from the hairspray on the tools, but I'm hoping that between the suspension, the whitewash and the mud that they will just cease to be an issue. 

I'm going to add a few more light scratches and the like to the hatches and other user-friendly places before finishing up the wear on the whitewash.  The layers of white, grey and pioneer tool ought to look pretty good if I can pull them off right.  I'm pleased with the mufflers, but there's a little more work to do but they aren't going to be real rust buckets either.  This tank probably still had the factory smell when it was photographed.

So, I'm at the end of my comfort zone and reaching for the unknown goal line.  See, I've not done a whitewash yet so this'll be a first, and then there's the mud that has be added to still unfinished friuls and running gear.  Lotta work to do before the 17th.

  • Member since
    April 2005
  • From: Piscataway, NJ!
Posted by wing_nut on Wednesday, July 7, 2010 6:42 AM

Svenne Duva

I guess we both need to start posting progress pictures :)

 

Yes, you doBig Smile

Marc  

  • Member since
    January 2008
  • From: Austria
Posted by Byrden on Wednesday, July 7, 2010 6:14 AM

I suppose you know that I drew the filter mounts:

http://tiger1.info/EN/AirPrecleaners.html

 

As for the colour, all I can say is that the Tiger was built in December 1942. The unit was free to overpaint it as needed.

David

 

  • Member since
    December 2005
  • From: Goteborg / Sverige
Posted by Svenne Duva on Tuesday, July 6, 2010 12:07 PM

Brilliant!

I guess we both need to start posting progress pictures :)

Thank you for Your support on this!

Svenne

sic transit gloria mundi

Dre
  • Member since
    June 2007
  • From: here, not over there
Posted by Dre on Tuesday, July 6, 2010 12:00 PM

Glad it's working out for you, Svenne.  I got the basic panzer grey with shading done on mine this past weekend, all of the tools are painted and I'm ready to do a whitewash for #3.  So far, so good!

  • Member since
    December 2005
  • From: Goteborg / Sverige
Posted by Svenne Duva on Tuesday, July 6, 2010 11:48 AM

Since I would like to build something that looks like #123 as pictured enclosed I am taking several shortcuts.

The Torsion bars will only get positioned under the drivers and radio operators hatch.
The swing arms will be mounted to the fixed points with exception of the first 2 which will be working.
I will pay no attention to the turret interior other then the basics suggested by Dragon.

All in order to focus on the exterior.

The side mud guards will be scratched.

The Gun Shield comes from the spares box.
The tooling will get moved around and changed according to David’s list of exceptions.

I take it that the lack of response to my question about the color of # 123 as displayed is that nobody actually knows…

Dre, you are right, sort of puts you off trying to get everything historically correct but then again that is what i would like to achieve :)

David, I would agree that the Tunisian would have been a better starting point, but I was not aware until you posted your comment.
I simply missed that kit.

I perfectly understand that I would be better off building any off the suggested Turret Numbers.
100% respect to all the effort that has gown into the research to this release!
#6600 is just awesome!

But I have been waiting for the re-release since – 2005? Where I messed it up badly…

The last comment on TIIF was that there where visible remains of white wash on the barrel, so Panzer Grau with an almost fainted whitewash is what I am going for.

The pictures displayed come from the Wikipedia agreement with the Bundesarchive to make historical pictures available to the public, this is an incredible resource!

Basic hull OK, still need to get the mounting brackets for the air cleaners scratched, will post when done
J

Svenne

 

sic transit gloria mundi

  • Member since
    January 2008
  • From: Austria
Posted by Byrden on Friday, July 2, 2010 6:18 PM

This Tiger is in s.Pz.Abt. 503.

It was not their only Tiger numbered '123'. They had another one the prior winter, which was almost identical to this one; only it had an escape hatch, and no frame to hold the rear toolbox.

That other '123' was photographed in whitewash and it did appear to be dark grey underneath.

David

 

Dre
  • Member since
    June 2007
  • From: here, not over there
Posted by Dre on Friday, July 2, 2010 5:37 PM

Is #123 in those photos from s.Pz.Abt 502 or from 503?  I was reading some refs last night that indicated that this Tiger was in s.Pz.Abt. 503... but either way, it was said that it was dark grey from the factory, yet it looks a lot lighter in tone than panzer grey.    These confusions are one reason I don't get too hung up on absolute historical accuracy.Wink

  • Member since
    December 2005
  • From: Goteborg / Sverige
Posted by Svenne Duva on Thursday, July 1, 2010 11:03 AM

Thank You all for your valuable input, your comments and suggestions are very much appreciated!

Close up on the left wall side skirts, and you are right of course David, no mounting brackets visible and the skirts are sheet metal only
The track pulling cable is there as you suggested ;

 

 

View on the back wall, no mud guards, but clearly visible assembly points for the air cleaners;



Officers in argument, the kink in the assembly of the side skirts is very visible;

 

I think I go half way J with Hinksy’s suggestion and do them in thin sheet metal.

My main concern remains, what is the color of  # 123?
I am not going to let go until I have a better source then Bison Decals, no disrespect in any way!

Svenne

 

 

sic transit gloria mundi

  • Member since
    September 2009
  • From: Rugby, England
Posted by Hinksy on Thursday, July 1, 2010 6:59 AM

Svenne Duva

SuppressionFire,
Got it, will do!

Dre,
My sample does not have that particular problem but then again I am not going 100% with the instructions, build sequence is different.
 
 I am going to nick the side plates from Dragon # 6383, that kit comes with a Zimmed side plate and omits the blank ones.

Which leaves me with an after market requirement;
Side skirts, what would be your best recommendation?

Svenne

Hey Svenne,

Good luck on the build my friend!

Re sideskirts: If you want solid Schurzen type I'd probably look at thin(ish) sheet Styrene. Perfect and cheap as chips!

No good for a 'grill' type skirt but ideal for a solid metal skirt and you can have as many attempts as you want.

ATVB

Ben Big Smile

On the Bench - Dragon Pz. IV Ausf. G (L.A.H.) Yes

Your image is loading...

 

Dre
  • Member since
    June 2007
  • From: here, not over there
Posted by Dre on Wednesday, June 30, 2010 2:24 PM

No worries, Svenne- it's your build!  Big Smile  When I saw how DML made the two-part suspension for this iteration of a Tiger I, I had to shake my head in wonder.  They've done articulated suspensions before that were much more usable than this...

  • Member since
    January 2008
  • From: Austria
Posted by Byrden on Wednesday, June 30, 2010 1:25 PM

I was thinking that I could use the side walls from  Dragon # 6383, which have the mounting brackets in place for the side fenders...

Not completely accurate, I'm afraid. The fenders on 6383 are exactly in a straight line, but those on '123' were kinked because they followed the line of the sponson. Only Cyberhobby's "Afrika" kit would be exactly right here.

Since Dragon have all the parts to build '123', I guess they would release it as a kit the same day you complete your conversion! Crying

David


  • Member since
    December 2005
  • From: Goteborg / Sverige
Posted by Svenne Duva on Wednesday, June 30, 2010 11:46 AM

Dre,
Sorry m8, missed your point about the torsion bars and the fiddly attachment. Went ahead without paying attention....
Sorry, won't happen again!

David,
Thank you for your support on this, Your input is greatly appreciated!
Dragon have re-released an excellent Tiger I Early, most of your valuable comments are actually accommodated for in the kit!

I will need to move a couple of things around and scratch the mounting brackets for the air filters, that’s OK.
I was thinking that I could use the side walls from  Dragon # 6383, which have the mounting brackets in place for the side fenders as depicted on the box art for #1 in the background.

I have followed your discussions with Hartmut on TIFF but there is one thing that is not yet clear in my mind.
What colour is # 123?
I am not convinced that it is the Kursk 1943 dark yellow with green stripes.

Don't belive in the "Tropen" scheme.

I allways thought that it is Panzer Grau with remains of a white wash.

Svenne

PS. Can not get hold of the Tunisian from where I am lokated right now, but a second # 6600 is on its way :)

sic transit gloria mundi

  • Member since
    January 2008
  • From: Austria
Posted by Byrden on Wednesday, June 30, 2010 3:15 AM

Svenne, concerning your plan to build '123' from the kit, these are the differences between '123' and the tanks in the kit:

  1. The brackets for the 5 portions of the gun cleaning rods are moved some way back along the hull, about level with the turret. Check your photos.
  2. The exhausts have no extension pipes.
  3. The 5 big bolts on the sprockets are aligned to the holes, not the ribs.
  4. The welded bumps for the air filter system are on the rear wall, plus the large V-shaped duct on the engine hatch.
  5. The jack is stored between the exhausts, I think this is unique to '123'.
  6. The wooden jack block is not on the rear wall, it's on the front hull roof.
  7. The tools on the front hull roof are (presumably) arranged in the usual way, unlike the kit where the small spade is reversed.
  8. There's a track-pulling cable on the left side wall.
  9. There's no antenna mount on the rear right wall.
  10. The rear light is the later type (a cylinder).
  11. The tracks are the identical "left" pair, like in most Tigers.
  12. There's a large spade stored in front of the driver.
  13. The mantlet is the thick reinforced type.
  14. There are side fenders; the first kind, with no reinforcing ribs or end plates, and not in exactly a straight line.
  15. The front and rear mudguards are the later type with hinged portions.
  16. The two small holes in front of the side sponsons, are reinforced with surrounding rings.
  17. The standard frame for storing the toolbox is present on the rear left wall.

The Cyberhobby "Afrika" Tiger would be a better starting point.

David

 

Dre
  • Member since
    June 2007
  • From: here, not over there
Posted by Dre on Tuesday, June 29, 2010 1:21 PM

It's what I wound up doing....

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