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Questions Regarding Gloss & Matt Coats

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  • Member since
    September 2009
  • From: Rugby, England
Questions Regarding Gloss & Matt Coats
Posted by Hinksy on Friday, December 31, 2010 1:23 PM

Hi guys,

I've been looking at threads and websites relating to glosscoats (inparticular) most of the afternoon in the office - it was an, erm, quiet day!

Now then, I thought that I'd settled on a happy medium with assembling the basic model, painting it, giving it a coat of Humbrol Gloss Rattlecan Varnish, applying decals, weathering, applying a caot of Humbrol Matt Varnish and finally pigments.

My last build (The Hetzer) raised some questions Tongue Tied It appeared that the Dunky on the build had darkened significantly.

Karl (Doog) feels that it was due to my using of an overall glosscoat. I think that I used FAR too much and applied too many layers & too thickly as it hasn't done this before.

Basically, I've been left scratching my head and feeling like a total newbie again! I've been told that:

  • An all over glosscoat is not required - only for decals
  • My Humbrol rattlecan varnishes, although it says for Acrylics, are solvent based and very 'hot' and I shouldn't use them - particularly the glosscoat.
  • I should use Future or Klear as it is called over here (I have a full bottle) - it is acrylic based.
  • I should invest in some Vallejo gloss and flat varnishes for use through my AB as they are acrylic based. 

Basically, I have no idea what to do next and am hoping some of my good friends on here can point me in the right direction!

Many thanks,

ATVB

Ben Toast

On the Bench - Dragon Pz. IV Ausf. G (L.A.H.) Yes

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  • Member since
    January 2007
Posted by the doog on Friday, December 31, 2010 1:42 PM

Well, Ben, you already know what I think, so I'll just add this--I believe that the whole school of modeling philosophy which uses gloss coats comes from an old dictum within the modeling world that you HAD to use gloss coats under decals when the decals were really of rather crappy quality--thick and hard to snuggle down. Using a gloss coat was really the only way to not get air bubbles and lousy decal jobs.However, decals these days can be snuggled down nicely with the many decal setting solutions. I usually don't gloss anything at all under my decals.

Secondarily, there is the old assertion from Shep Paine that you used gloss coats for washes, in order to have the color roll off the panels of the model and settle into the creases. Again, if that style of modeling is your preferred one, that works great for that, but with the new trend toward filtering and tinting the basic paint coats, a flat finish actually works better for the types of finishes that I get and prefer. The flat finish has more "tooth" to grab the wash and with careful manipulation, you can really get it to go where you want.

The idea of using sealers in general is also one that I dismiss. Of course, this is because I use acrylics--and mostly Tamiya ONLY in 98% of cases--on my models. Acrylics USED TO BE awful to work with, with adhesion and fragility problems, requiring a sealant coat. But Tamiya's are nearly indestructible, in my experience. Unless you prefer solvent-based paint like Testor's enamels (such as wbill76 does) or Humbrol, you don't need to "protect" or seal acrylic finishes, in my opinion.

  • Member since
    April 2005
  • From: Piscataway, NJ!
Posted by wing_nut on Friday, December 31, 2010 1:47 PM

I don't think the yellow darken due to the gloss coat.  I agree with your assessment that the washes were just over done.  Any clear coat is meant to protect the paint underneath.  In the case of decals, gloss is needed to keep air from getting under and silvering the clear bits.  With armor, i never gloss coat.  I will flat coat to protect the paint from the washes and weathering.

I use primarily enamels so when I go to do my oil dot filter etc. I need to protect the paint from the solvent with good coat of clear flat acrylic.  This will completely seal the paint.  It is very important to allow everything to really cure well.  If not the solvent will even get through the acyclic from working it with brushes, cotton swabs etc.

Washes spread better over the flat surface and is easier to blend.  Pin washes just need a little extra care as there can be some blooming... when the tiny bit of wash spreads out too much... and may need to be lightly touched with a cotton swab to wick away some of the excess.  Or even take a fine brush to blend the edges.  You don't want there to be a line where a wash has bloomed.  These are called tide marks.

 

Sorry but I gotta run out before stores start closing for the up coming booze fest.  Be back later in case I have confused the hell out of you.

Marc  

  • Member since
    September 2009
  • From: Rugby, England
Posted by Hinksy on Friday, December 31, 2010 1:49 PM

Thanks for the prompt reply Karl Yes

I use SIN Filters and MIG/AK oil based washes how do I stand with that stuff.

I'm also hearing a lot about 'protecting the paint from the harsh oil based washes to come' - ie add a gloss coat?

I'm confused. There is sooo much information out there and everyone seems to recommend doing things differently!

Btw, do you use setting soloutions etc for your decals Karl?

Thanks buddy & Happy New Year,

ATVB

Ben Toast

On the Bench - Dragon Pz. IV Ausf. G (L.A.H.) Yes

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  • Member since
    October 2007
  • From: Scotland
Posted by Milairjunkie on Friday, December 31, 2010 1:51 PM

Hinksy
  • 1) An all over glosscoat is not required - only for decals
  • 2) My Humbrol rattlecan varnishes, although it says for Acrylics, are solvent based and very 'hot' and I shouldn't use them - particularly the glosscoat.
  • 3) I should use Future or Klear as it is called over here (I have a full bottle) - it is acrylic based.
  • 4) I should invest in some Vallejo gloss and flat varnishes for use through my AB as they are acrylic based. 

1) This is correct for the "pre-decal" gloss coat - it's purpose is to prevent decal silvering.

2,3 & 4) Although not everyone does, I swear by Future (Klear here in the UK) & Tamiya X-21 Flat Base for all clear coat work, it's acrylic, it's cheap, it works & it goes through an airbrush perfectly. You probably already know this, but X-21 is a flattening additive that can be added in varying quantities to gloss acrylics (including Future) to give a finish anywhere from full gloss to complete flat & anywhere in between.  

 

  • Member since
    September 2009
  • From: Rugby, England
Posted by Hinksy on Friday, December 31, 2010 2:02 PM

Thanks Wing Nut,

So you don't use gloss coat at all - do you use any setting solutions etc for your decals?

 

ATVB

Ben Toast

 

On the Bench - Dragon Pz. IV Ausf. G (L.A.H.) Yes

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  • Member since
    August 2006
  • From: Arkansas
Posted by K-dawg on Friday, December 31, 2010 2:13 PM

In fact many of the most well known painters working today use oil paints over a semi-gloss or gloss coat specifically so that they DON'T soak into the base color. When the oils soak in they tend to alter the base color much more than if they sit on top of a gloss coat. It's easier to keep the base colors from getting overly dark if the oils don't soak in.

Now when it comes to pigments, yes a flat coat is pretty much mandatory for them to stick.

Personally, I prefer a semi-gloss surface to weather over for the reasons above. I can keep my base colors truer by working over a clear. Also, in my experience, when using the dot fading method over flat paint it's harder to blend the dots away without having to use excessive amounts of thinner and scrubbing (also depends on the color). If you have to scrub them too hard to get the dots to fade away you tend to mix them all into one color and you lose the patina effect.

I used a semi-gloss on my current M-47 project because of the very light base color and the fact that I wanted as much control over the pin wash and where it went as I could get.

Again, this is just my experience

Good Luck.

Kenneth

Kenneth Childres, Central Arkansas Scale Modelers

  • Member since
    January 2007
Posted by the doog on Friday, December 31, 2010 2:25 PM

Hinksy

Thanks for the prompt reply Karl Yes

I use SIN Filters and MIG/AK oil based washes how do I stand with that stuff.

MIG stuff is enamel-based. So the same rules apply as far as doing them over enamel-based stuff. Seal to protect.

Hinksy
I'm also hearing a lot about 'protecting the paint from the harsh oil based washes to come' - ie add a gloss coat?

Again, that depends on what kind of paint you use, as well as the type of thinner--some are more harsh than others. I use ordinary low-odor mineral spirits.

Hinksy
I'm confused. There is sooo much information out there and everyone seems to recommend doing things differently!

That's why you have to find a style and method that works for you. One word--experiment! Get an old model or a cheapy and try to "destroy it" with paint and weathering so you can see how far you can push things.

Hinksy
Btw, do you use setting soloutions etc for your decals Karl?

Yes, Solvaset. Micro Sol is also a good choice.

Smile Happy New Year to you too!

  • Member since
    September 2009
  • From: Rugby, England
Posted by Hinksy on Friday, December 31, 2010 2:30 PM

Hmmm,

It's a minefield. There obviously is no clear answer!

Has anyone got any thoughts on the solvent based Acrylic rattlecan gloss & matt that I've been using (Humbrol)?

I think that all I can really do is to try different methods i.e. try my Klear through the air brush, try not using an all over gloss coat at all and use a flat coat only and I'l also try something like the Vallejo model air gloss & flat coats.

ATVB

Ben Toast

On the Bench - Dragon Pz. IV Ausf. G (L.A.H.) Yes

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  • Member since
    August 2006
  • From: Arkansas
Posted by K-dawg on Friday, December 31, 2010 2:38 PM

I like Vallejo but more often than not I use Tamiya X-22 clear. Sprays well and you can control the gloss by how many coats you use.

And you're right, there are NO cookie cutter rules. Experiment and do what works for you.

Kenneth

EDIT: Actually... There are a FEW rules... but none of the relate to style.. it's more what chemical reacts with what... Don't want to burn down the place... Big Smile

Kenneth Childres, Central Arkansas Scale Modelers

  • Member since
    September 2009
  • From: Rugby, England
Posted by Hinksy on Friday, December 31, 2010 2:57 PM

Thanks guys,

I've got some X-22 Clear but it's all 'gloopy' - how do I prepare it for AB use? I understand it should be like this when purchased.

Other than the above question that's enough for me to go on with but I'm very keen on what you think about the Humbrol Ratlecan Acrylic varnishes that I've been using. They are solvent based. The matt spray, sprayed lightly, is very good. Is there any reason to believe that this solvent/oil based spray would damage my acrylic basecoat? A friend suggested that by using the Humbrol glosscoat some seepage would occur, damaging the acrylic coat beneath?

Many thanks,

Ben Beer

On the Bench - Dragon Pz. IV Ausf. G (L.A.H.) Yes

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  • Member since
    August 2006
  • From: Arkansas
Posted by K-dawg on Friday, December 31, 2010 3:02 PM

Hinksy, Are you talking about the Tamiya flat base or the X-22 clear? The flat base is thick goopy substance but all of the bottles of X-22 clear I have are the consistency of paint. Cut it with water the same as you would with regular Tamiya paint and off you go. I usually thin my Tamiya paints with Lacquer thinner but with the clear I use water so I can have the acrylic barrier between the lacquer base and oil weathering mediums.

Kenneth Childres, Central Arkansas Scale Modelers

  • Member since
    January 2007
Posted by the doog on Friday, December 31, 2010 3:20 PM

K-dawg

Hinksy, Are you talking about the Tamiya flat base or the X-22 clear? The flat base is thick goopy substance but all of the bottles of X-22 clear I have are the consistency of paint. Cut it with water the same as you would with regular Tamiya paint and off you go. I usually thin my Tamiya paints with Lacquer thinner but with the clear I use water so I can have the acrylic barrier between the lacquer base and oil weathering mediums.

BE CAREFUL, BEN!

Tamiya Clear and Flat are, as far as I know, NOT, I repeat "NOT!" to be used as traditional flat or clear sealants!

They are, rather, intended to be added to paints to either "gloss" them (Clear) or reduce their gloss content ("Flat"). If you spray them over a finish by themselves, I believe that you will ruin the finish!

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Texas
Posted by wbill76 on Friday, December 31, 2010 3:24 PM

One thing to add is that Future/Klear is not a "true" gloss unless you apply it very thickly and even then it will still have a slight "texture" to it. This is due to the fact that it's designed to be walked on as a floor polish and if it was a true gloss it would be the equivalent to walking on ice. Wink What that means is that, when applied in thin mist coats, it will actually retain some tooth although not as much as a true flat surface obviously. As Karl points out, because I work with enamels virtually exclusively, using Future is an absolute must for me, no two ways about it. Big Smile

I used to struggle mightily with decals silvering back before I started applying Future. I've never had an issue since with decals silvering and I use a combination of Solvaset and the Future coat to insure that decals are snugged down...regardless of whether or not those decals are older or the latest-greatest from a new release. I also apply the second coat of Future to protect the decals as they are also susceptible, if not protected, to ill effects from various washes/solvents depending (I've actually had some decals "run" or dissolve when subjected to harsh thinners!). I don't bother using the airbrush to apply a flat coat to remove any lingering effects of the Future...95% or more of that is dealt with through the application of overall washes and filters anyhow and what's left is easily removed with the use of Testors Lusterless Flat lacquer in the spray-can. That flat surface will then provide all the needed tooth for pigment treatment etc.   

As the others have commented Ben, you're going to have to find the mix that works best for you in the long run. I think you're finding what we all have found and that is that the weathering process will inevitably darken a finish. The usual path to prevent that from happening is to substantially lighten the base colors and/or choose lighter wash or weathering colors accordingly. HTH! Beer

  • Member since
    January 2007
Posted by the doog on Friday, December 31, 2010 3:28 PM

Also, just to clarify--glossing a model will not actually "darken" the base coat.

But what it WILL do is change the way that light refracts off the model, imparting a darker "look" to it. Really almost a moot point; your model WILL "look" "darker", even if technically, chemically, it i not.

  • Member since
    September 2009
  • From: Rugby, England
Posted by Hinksy on Friday, December 31, 2010 3:28 PM

Note: Karl: I've just seen your post - you must have posted whilst I was typing!

Righto,

I've had another look and I have both the X-21 Flat Base which is all milky and gloopy and the X-22 Clear which is like paint.

I assume I can use the Clear as my barrier / for application prior to washes after painting and do I put my decals on top of this? what ratio do you cut it with water and how many applications (layers) do you apply?

Also, what about the X-21? Does this give a matt finish and if so how do you prepare it for AB'ing?

God my head hurts!

Sorry for all the questions!

I've got a pending order with an on-line store and it won't be dispatched until the 4th after the New Year Bank Holiday Monday so I'll order some Valejo gloss and flat in the small bottles to try first. I've also got my Klear to sample.

ATVB

Ben Toast

On the Bench - Dragon Pz. IV Ausf. G (L.A.H.) Yes

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  • Member since
    August 2006
  • From: Arkansas
Posted by K-dawg on Friday, December 31, 2010 3:38 PM

Ben, The Flat base as far as I know is ment to be mixed with paint, not sprayed over it. It's a flattening agent.. I don't like it myself.

The Clear can be cut 50/50 or so for AB work or thinner if you prefer. It tends to build up slowly so several passes may be required to get a solid glossy coat. The other thing is you can mix it with your base Tamiya paints before spraying them to make'em more glossy. If you do this it also makes them slightly less opaque and will require more coats but it's a trade off.

Kenneth Childres, Central Arkansas Scale Modelers

  • Member since
    September 2009
  • From: Rugby, England
Posted by Hinksy on Friday, December 31, 2010 3:50 PM

Yeah, I don't like the look of the Flat Base either!

I'll give the clear a try and see how it performs. I'll also try the Vallejo stuff and Klear.

Thanks for you help buddy,

ATVB & Happy New Year!

Ben Toast

On the Bench - Dragon Pz. IV Ausf. G (L.A.H.) Yes

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  • Member since
    October 2007
  • From: Scotland
Posted by Milairjunkie on Friday, December 31, 2010 3:52 PM

Hinksy

Also, what about the X-21? Does this give a matt finish and if so how do you prepare it for AB'ing?

Yes it does - it's simply added into Future, or any other gloss acrylic - but in relatively small quantities as it's only an additive. Check Swanny's page on it, which gives some useful ratios for various finishes;

http://www.swannysmodels.com/TheCompleteFuture.html

  • Member since
    April 2005
  • From: Piscataway, NJ!
Posted by wing_nut on Saturday, January 1, 2011 5:34 PM

Hinksy

Hmmm,

It's a minefield. There obviously is no clear answer!

Bingo!  That is 100% correct.  You take all this advice, lay out a plan, and try to make it work.  It may take some experimenting to get one set of steps you are comfortable with and produce results you like.

As far as a gloss under deacls...no, not on armor.  There are so few I just set the decal using Future.  A little puddle of Future, apply the wet (drained) decal and press it in with a cotton swap.  When dry I will remove the excess Future with a swap dampened with alcohol.  It works great on almost any surface...even very rough

Marc  

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