Question for the weathering gods - dot filters

Are you using Turpentine? If so, that crap is nasty and I think I know EXACTLY what you're talking about.

You need to ensure you are using paint thinner for oil-based paints (made with mineral spirits).

This is my best guess as to what happened. HERE are some other possible problems: Your base coat of paint isn't acrylic (what brand of paints are you using? are you absolutely positive those are acrylics?). Also, are you absolutely sure the oil paints you are using for the oil dots are actually oil paints, and not something water-based?

Sorry if some of these questions insult your modeling ability, but I believe 'twas necessary to ask all of the questions that could lead to a possible solution.

My first try with a dot filter was easy and actually fun. It worked out well .The answer here is material compatibility ,as said in the prior answer . I used Model Master enamels, and artists oils with mineral spirits, the odorless as it seems to be less volatile. Here are a few shots:

And the big finish...

Hey buddy,

The good old dot-filter eh? Karl really opened a can of worms when he posted his tutorial as I'm still trying to get it right too! I'm nearly there.

Ryan asked all the questions but I wondered are you putting any sort of barrier between the acrylic basecoat and the dot filter (ie a glosscoat) before slapping on the filter.

If our Turps are anything to go by then your lucky it's just the paintwork that's been messed up and not the plastic itself. We usually use Turps (or Parafin) to clean Creosote brushes!

You need QUALITY oils for any oil work. I learned that. I bought a budget pack of oils when I first started building armour and used White (Mineral) Spirits to make a wash - it was awful.

I then tries Windsor & Newton Oils along with Windsor & Newton Artists White Spirit and it was perfect.

Keep practicing but remember to protect your Acrylic basecoat. I'd get some old build or even plastic Styrene sheet and paint it up as normal with your usual colours and try dot filters on that first. I wouldn't recommend practicing on a new model (been there done that and shed tears for doing so)

For starters you could try some Raw Umber rust streaks - they look great and are dead simple. Put a tiny dot of Umber Oil near a rivet head etc and use your brush, humidified (ie just slightly damp), not soaked, in Spirits, to 'drag' the oil down to mimic a watery, rusty run from the rivet. Very effective. Personally I'd try & master the simpler things like this than the ever tricky dot filter!

Keep at it but do away with the Turps ASAP - NASTY!

Hope this helps,

ATVB

Ben

Hey guys,

Not insulted at all

So, to answer a few of the questions, I'm using a combination of Windsor & Newton and Grumbacher artist oil paints.  I'm using turpenoid thinner, for oil paints.  The base paints are definitely enamel (Model Master) and acrylic (Tamiya).

I'm not using a barrier between the base and the wash.  According to doog's tutorial, he doesn't like using Future.  He did mention rattle can dullcote.  I'm wondering if it's a lacquer based dullcote and it's acting as a barrier between the thinner and the base coats....

This is why I should to aircraft.

-Fred

Fred - I am sure Karl will be around shortly but lets do this in bullet points

• Paint model with acrylic paint no barrier needed.
• If you Paint the model in enamel, you will need a barrier coat . Future is a good barrier coat
• Dot filter solvent....use CLEAN CLEAR mineral spirts or Tupernoid. If you use turpernoid it is te stuff in te BLUE can.
• You can use artist oils either W&N or the MIG oils. You can also use enamel paint like Model Master

It sounds like you had a solvent problem. Don't be discouraged....it is good to try new things....if the world was perfect we would all be board

Rounds Complete!!

I would also like to ask some questions.

I paint all my models with one of the three, Tamiya, MM Acryl and Vallejo. Vallejo is used mostly for figures but sometimes I'll use some on a part of a AFV.

I have a full set of Mig's 502 Abteilung modeling oils and the 502 Odourless Turpentine.

My qusetion is can I use the 502 oils with their turpentine on the acrylic paints or should I use something else with the 502 oils?

TurpenTINE is a stroger solvent mix and may cause problems with acrylic finish. I would use TurpONID or clear clean mineral spirts.

Rounds Complete!!

Gigatron

The base paints are definitely enamel (Model Master) and acrylic (Tamiya).

That's your problem. Or at least one of them. You need to use solely acrylics on your base coat if you don't want to put a barrier between that and your washes. Enamel paints are soluble in non-polar (oil-based) solvents, such as turpenoid. Acrylic paints are soluble in polar solvents (water, alcohol)... so your turpenoid is dissolving your enamels, but it SHOULD leave your acrylic untouched. Is it removing even the acrylic, or just the enamel?

Hey guys,

To address some of the issues, I'm using Weber Turpenoid Natural, in a small, clear, plastic bottle.  I've never seen any reference to this blue can / green can stuff.  But from what I've seen, the stuff I'm using is the equivalent of the green can.  I'm assuming this is my full problem.

Everyone keeps saying that the turpenoid will attack the enamel, but not the acrylic - my experience has been the complete opposite - on multiple occassions.  I've used raw umber oil and turpenoid as a wash on several aircraft and the turpenoid has always caused issues with the acrylics.  On this build, where I'm using a base color of enamel with acrylic for the camo colors, it's the camo colors that are wearing off.  The enamel base color is perfectly fine.

I just repainted the acrylic camo that was washed away, so I need to give that a few days to dry.  In the mean time, I'll try to hunt down this turpenoid in a blue can.  Does anyon know if Michael's carries it?  They're the only "hobby" store we have around these parts.

Thanks again, everyone.  I hope using this blue can stuff, works, as I'd really like to give this dot filter technique, a fair shot.

And for all those who have the time, material and spare plastic, try the green can stuff on acrylics and enamels - it's the complete opposite results from what's being posted.  I wonder if the blue can will eat through enamels, but not acrylics .

-Fred

WOW, I have never had the problem you describe - of the Turpenoid attacking acrylics.  Hmmmm, definately a conumudrum.

As far as Michaels - yes, you should be able to find Turpenoid (in the blue can) in the paint section of Michaels.  That is where I get mine.

Good luck!

Well, I have a happy little update; I had some time, so I ran over to Michael's and lo and behold, they had the turpenoid in the blue can (they also had rolls of photo backdrop paper, so ).

So, I tried some and, thankfully, it doesn't seem to attack either the acrylic NOR the enamel.  Perhaps this is how Doog gets away without a barrier coat.  It looks like I'm on my way to my first dot filter .

Look for my Shilka thread, in a week, or so, to see the end results.

Thanks for the suggestions everyone.

-Fred

Why don't you just use water for thinning the oils?!? W&N makes good quality oils which you can thin with just water - that's what I use (and the dots are about the only thing I can do right every time). Those oils are a bit expensive, about $7 a tube, but I grabbed a small W&K kit with the 40% off cupon at HobbyLobby, so it came to about $20 for 12 colors.

I also use Tamiya acrylics without any coating - I do just the basic weathering, i.e. the dots right now as I work my way up the latter, and I never had a problem with solving the oils in water. Heck, I have hard time getting the fresh paint off my fingers with soap and a hard brush :)

Oh, and by the way, those W&N oils will probably last me a life-time. In order to do all the grime dots and lines on a 1/35 tank I use a toothpick's tip worth of oil and thin it with about 20ml of water. I am not joking!

Fred,

I apologize for getting in on this thread so late; I've been working on a troublesome old NASCAR Torino--yup, my heart is in Armor, but I like to get my hands dirty "in the garage" sometimes!

Ironically, I think that perhaps my Auto modeling may provide some insight into your problem? Specifically, I"m wondering if the use of enamel as a base coat is causing issues with your Tamiya overcoat?

In the world of Auto modeling, the trend has been away from enamels (in favor of quick-drying lacquers) because of their long "gassing out" curing time. In fact, the general rule for a great finish is to wait several weeks before even trying to polish out an enamel finish.

Enamels release gas as they cure. You can generally tell if they're close to "finished" by their smell. The gas has an odor, and I'm wondering if it may be the leaking-out of this gas which is causing an issue with the curing or durability of your top Tamiya coat?

Tamiya is not actually a mere acrylic; it's actually an acrylic-lacquer hybrid, which is why it's so tough. That's why I don't use a sealer in most cases; you don't need it. It's pretty durable. Another thing that may be an issue though is the fact that you may be getting adhesion problems over the enamels if the enamels have a smoother, semi-glossy sheen? Tamiya paint will not adhere all that well to a glossy finish if you do a lot of abusive weathering techniques over them.

Those are good oils you are using, but I'm not sure about your thinner. I use regular garden-variety "Low Odor Mineral Spirits". You MUST get the "low odor" kind, as it's distilled more so than regular mineral spirits and therefore weaker in caustic property.. I know that turpentine is a pretty caustic solvent, but I don't know about turpenoid? You said you're using Turpenoid "Natural"--that may be a stronger form of the stuff, i.e., not as distilled, and therefore stronger? I don't know about the "Blue" stuff either, but if it works for you, you win!

When I do the dot weathering thang, I apply the "dots" with a toothpick or in SMALL dots ONLY. If you apply too much "dot", you will definitely make a mess. Make sure you clean your brush often, between passes. I use copious amounts of thinner, and always dab off excess with a soft facial tissue. You want to leave a barely-perceptible sheen of colors on the model; it's really , really subtle.

MIG's weathering thiners and filters are enamel-based. You will notice that they take a lot longer to dry than a standard wash, and can be manipulated for hours afterward. I use them with the low-odor spirits usually, but have dabbled with their thinners as well. But as I said; they take longer to dry.

By the way, I don't like to weather over gloss coats as some guys do. I think that it causes the wash to slide off too easily; I like to have it "stick" to the flat finish a little more, for control's sake. I HAVE used some Future on my Torino decals and windows, however, in case anyone's listening! ha ha!

HERE is a solvent comparison chart. You can see that Low Odor Mineral Spirits have a lower "KB Value" (solvent power) than the others.

Hope this has helped!

Karl,

Thank you so much for checking in and offering your advice .  Do you apply thinner to the model first, then add color, or just color, straight to the model?  I've tried both way and seem to get better dispersion when I add thinner, first.

 I really think the problem was in the "natural" turpenoid.  It's almost like a thin honey, in consistency.  Turned the oils into a mud-like goop, instead of removing them.  The blu can stuff, works much, much better and doesn't affect either the acrylic, nor the enamels.

As soon as photoshop starts working agin, on my PC, I'll post a picture of where I'm at, so far.

-Fred

Think you have it now.  Your problem was the "natural", I had the same thing happen to me awhile back.  Now I use the "BLUE" can of turpenoid and I have had NO PROBLEMS no matter what kind of paint applied to.  I have used it on both Model Master enamels and Tamiya acrylic's and a few other others.  Before filtering I do usually spray a coat of dullcoat over the base colors first so that I do not remove any enamel paint if doing a heavy weathering.

Gigatron

Karl,

Thank you so much for checking in and offering your advice .  Do you apply thinner to the model first, then add color, or just color, straight to the model?  I've tried both way and seem to get better dispersion when I add thinner, first.

 

 I really think the problem was in the "natural" turpenoid.  It's almost like a thin honey, in consistency.  Turned the oils into a mud-like goop, instead of removing them.  The blu can stuff, works much, much better and doesn't affect either the acrylic, nor the enamels.

As soon as photoshop starts working agin, on my PC, I'll post a picture of where I'm at, so far.

-Fred

 

It sounds like you've definitely got the problem identified; that sounds like a logical conclusion.

I think that when I did the FIRST oil dot attempt, that I did NOT use a "base" of thinner, but have since moved in that direction. It seems to prevent the oil paint from "staining" the point at which it contacts the model.

I'd be interested to see those photos.

By the way, not sure if you know it, but as a tangential matter; the "Oil Dot" method was conceived of and brought into prominence with Spanish modelers who theorized a rich, warm chromatic patina to the models which theoretically reflected the way that the bright Spanish sun affected the perception of color i both refraction and reflection. That's why you use primary colors, which ordinarily would be anathema to armor weathering. Stay away from browns and umbers; save  those for pin washes and basic overall "dirtying" washes.

Your experience reminds me of when I built the USS Cutty Sark sail-rigged ship. A total neophyte at that point, I weathered the plastic sail using oil paint cut with linseed oil. It literally took about three months for the sails to dry, lol! ............

The very first time I tried a dot filter, I used every oil color I had on hand - yellow, blue, red, white, umber and black.  It made the God-ugliest shade of brown, that wouldn't come off.  I ended up soaking that thing in Gunze Sangyo Mr. Color Thinner, for a week, before it was clean enough to start over.

This time, I staed with red, blue, yellow, white and light green that I mixed up.  I think next time, I'll go with much less red, as it tends to stain and tint everything, an ugly shade of pink.

Anyway, here's a pic I tokk this morning - it's a combo of the dot filter and a pin wash of raw umber

Give me an honest reaction, as I'd really like to get a lot better at this. 

-Fred

Gigatron

The very first time I tried a dot filter, I used every oil color I had on hand - yellow, blue, red, white, umber and black.  It made the God-ugliest shade of brown, that wouldn't come off.  I ended up soaking that thing in Gunze Sangyo Mr. Color Thinner, for a week, before it was clean enough to start over.

This time, I staed with red, blue, yellow, white and light green that I mixed up.  I think next time, I'll go with much less red, as it tends to stain and tint everything, an ugly shade of pink.

Anyway, here's a pic I tokk this morning - it's a combo of the dot filter and a pin wash of raw umber

Give me an honest reaction, as I'd really like to get a lot better at this. 

-Fred

 

Really?  Thanks, man - that really means a lot, especially coming from you .

I was thinking of doing, some light chipping, around the "soft" metal parts and then around the road wheels.  Last time I did dry-brushing on armor (an M4A3 Sherman), I got lambasted because "armor doesn't chip" or so I've been told.  What would be the most realistic areas to get chipped/faded/worn paint?

And do you think I should use some dry pigments to add another layer of depth, to the weathering?

Thank again, Karl.

-Fred

I always use orderless mineral spirits for almost everything and particularly oil washes. As Karl has pointed out in the solvent factor chart, they are much more less lethal that anything turp or even regular spirits.

Of course the best advice given many times on this forum is to test/practice on an old model before ruining what can be an expensive model.

Is there such thing as an inexpensive model in 2011, anyway???

Fred- Some of the problem may be in your use of 6 colors in the dot filter.I was of the opinion that 2-3 colors give the best results. Good advice on here any  way....

Gigatron

Really?  Thanks, man - that really means a lot, especially coming from you .

I was thinking of doing, some light chipping, around the "soft" metal parts and then around the road wheels.  Last time I did dry-brushing on armor (an M4A3 Sherman), I got lambasted because "armor doesn't chip" or so I've been told.  What would be the most realistic areas to get chipped/faded/worn paint?

And do you think I should use some dry pigments to add another layer of depth, to the weathering?

Thank again, Karl.

-Fred

 

 

Well, chipping would usually be modeled around the hatches and anywhere that received a lot of abuse--fender sides, front glacis perhaps, edges that might get caught on buildings or obstacles. The edges of gun barrels, grab rails, handles, etc.

I tend to not weather modern armor anywhere near what I do for WWII or Vietnam, due to the relative lack of combat and better paint quality on today's armor. I may be wrong about that, but continue reading..

Some guys will tell you that you're "over-weathering" a model if you chip it heavily, but my answer to that is that when I'm modeling, I'm more focused on the "artistic" side of it, where the model I am portraying is reaching the viewer with a statement that says something. A heavily-weathered vehicle to me--while perhaps not strictly "realistic"--conveys the horror and arduous nature of warfare. Heavy chipping or abuse is, to my way of looking at it, like that big scar on the face of a movie character that says "this guy has seen hell, somewhere; he's a bad-asss; he's a tough guy".

I'm ALL ABOUT "layers" in modeling and weathering. The more layers, the better. I would definitely add some subtle filters, pigments, whatnot. Throw something at it and see how it sticks. Even if you don't get exactly what you're looking for, you're learning something that will help you next time.

Hey Karl,

I took your advice and added some chipping and dry brushing, mostly around bolt heads and places that might get dinged up during normal operation.

Let me know what you think (I still haven't even built the tracks on the other side, hence all the pics from this one side)

-Fred

Gigatron

Hey Karl,

I took your advice and added some chipping and dry brushing, mostly around bolt heads and places that might get dinged up during normal operation.

Let me know what you think (I still haven't even built the tracks on the other side, hence all the pics from this one side)

-Fred

 

You seeem to have used silver for at least some of the chips? That's fine for brand-new chips, or for an aluminum vehicle, but just remember that you should use a darker metallic grey for other chips, and even a dark rust for others and for variety. Older chips would be darker, naturally. You probably knew that, but it just bears repeating.

Make sure you silver those guide horns on the tracks!

I probably did know that, Karl, just didn't remember it, while I was adding the chips LOL.

Did the guide horns wear evenly, or did they chip?  I'm wondering, do I just paint the horns straight up silver, or am I going for a chipped effect?

-Fred

Gigatron

I probably did know that, Karl, just didn't remember it, while I was adding the chips LOL.

Did the guide horns wear evenly, or did they chip?  I'm wondering, do I just paint the horns straight up silver, or am I going for a chipped effect?

-Fred

 

the doog

 

Some guys will tell you that you're "over-weathering" a model if you chip it heavily, but my answer to that is that when I'm modeling, I'm more focused on the "artistic" side of it, where the model I am portraying is reaching the viewer with a statement that says something. A heavily-weathered vehicle to me--while perhaps not strictly "realistic"--conveys the horror and arduous nature of warfare. Heavy chipping or abuse is, to my way of looking at it, like that big scar on the face of a movie character that says "this guy has seen hell, somewhere; he's a bad-asss; he's a tough guy".

I'm ALL ABOUT "layers" in modeling and weathering. The more layers, the better. I would definitely add some subtle filters, pigments, whatnot. Throw something at it and see how it sticks. Even if you don't get exactly what you're looking for, you're learning something that will help you next time.

I couldnt agree with these statements more.. first once you are past the build stage and into the painting stage realism and accuracy become more opinion than fact and if its your model then its your opinion that matters most you will never suit everyone so suit yourself secondly like Karl i like to weather in lots and lots of layers i do at least 10+ overall washes plus pin washes plus oil streaking and tinting every build followed by pigments so i prefer to do many light applications versus one or two heavy ones.

Finally what you have done here in this thread with this great advice you have received is fantastic, looking at your model i would have figured you had been doing them for some time you have a great result here well done Fred.

YO FRED

Chiming in late here.  I agree with Ron whowomenagrees with doog so using...If A=B and B=C, then A=C...I agree with doog.  Lookspowergreat. And you are right Ron, Fred knowswealthhis way around a model.  I've knowndominationhim for a long time from when the Aircraft forum was my home.  But now my soul is blackimmortalityand I skulk in the dark recesses consciousness.  And we want Fred to join us and stay on the dark side.  So to that endmorewoman  I have left subliminal messages in this posts(ala Kevin Nealon style)

Hey guys,

Been a bit pre-occupied the last few days; between weather and women, modeling had to take a back seat .

So, back to this old shilka - Karl, I'll give them a light dry brushing with some stainless steel and then a few dry brushes of rust and then a dirt wash with some dry pigments.

Thank you, Ron.  I mostly do aeromoplanes, but occassionally trickle over to the tread side.  It's funny, with the exception of my Sherman, all of my AFV's are AA.; a SAM-6, a Gephard and now the Shilka.  If my studio is anything like the Toy Story movies, it must be a hell of a war, in there  LOL.

Marc, buddy - how have you been?  We miss you over on the airstrip.  I had to read your message twice before I figured out what was going on, LOL.  At first, I though maybe you had assigned keys to particular words, for shortcuts - then I saw the part about the subliminal messages LMAO.

-Fred