Is everyone wrong?

Rob Gronovius

 Pioneer tools that spent their life locked in turret or hull sponson boxes were left as they were received. You rarely dug with the shovel or chopped with the axe due to environmental restrictions. About the only pioneer hand tool that was routinely used was the sledge hammer; a key item when changing track.

Yes that was certainly the case in the latter portion of my career. I sat thru a class at Ft Hunter Liggett around 2000 or so for Guard NCOs who would sign for ranges/training areas there. The class extolled the virtues of not harming the local environment by cutting branches for camoflage, and not digging fighting postions, etc. Then I remembered my early days of active duty when such thoughts were blasphemy. As soon as a postion was occupied, we would be out digging hasty fighting postions (to be turned into proper fighting postions with overhead cover if we were gonna be staying for any length of time), cutting foliage to attach to our tracks, etc. I got real good at digging holes and cutting branches and trees with those pioneer tools very quickly. They beat the snot out of an E-tool for effectiveness. Of course on REFORGER in 84 the German environmental restrctions were quite strict and in line with what they would become Stateside in the future.

grandadjohn

I was in the Army on active duty and in the National Guard for the rest. I never saw any tools that were not painted OD. After any field use, they were cleaned and painted as needed

Major accountability for minor items like hand tools declined at the end of Desert Storm. When I first got in, inventories were strict, done with rulers to determine the screwdriver you had was a 9" cheapo one the Army issued with the tank. It would normally break and and get replaced by a Stanley, Craftsman or other better quality one bought at a local store, but would not count for inventories unless you had the useless one.

I remember my M60A3TTS coming with three tiny Allen wrenches that always got lost. They were used for adjusting the sights. Most crews took the issue wrenches, taped them together and left them in the tool bag. Then went out and bought a civilian set of Allen wrenches (you know the type that come with like a dozen sizes on a key ring for $5) to have on hand in case you needed them for something.

We were spending too much time & effort on items accounting for junk tools when better ones could be bought off post for less money. BII items became less of a big deal (except for vehicle specific items). Pioneer tools that spent their life locked in turret or hull sponson boxes were left as they were received. You rarely dug with the shovel or chopped with the axe due to environmental restrictions. About the only pioneer hand tool that was routinely used was the sledge hammer; a key item when changing track.

I agree with Roy. It does look more interesting with the natural wood color. More recently, as I was looking for reference photos for a Stryker, the pictures I came across with has all the pioneer tool handles in natural wood color and all the steel parts in semi or glossy black. So I guess everybody is right.

bbrowniii

stikpusher:

HeavyArty:

 Also, like others have said, some are bought at local hardware stores to replace lost ones. 

or sometimes from another platoon/company who was foolish enough to leave theirs out  unguarded when it was accountablity time... Of course I only heard about such things...

 

You know the old saying.  "There is only one thief in the (insert your military branch here).  Everyone else is just trying to get their.... stuff... back."

LMAO....yet sooooo true

Also remember.....the best "can" point is the next motor pool at night!!

Rounds Complete!!

stikpusher

HeavyArty:

 Also, like others have said, some are bought at local hardware stores to replace lost ones. 

or sometimes from another platoon/company who was foolish enough to leave theirs out  unguarded when it was accountablity time... Of course I only heard about such things...

You know the old saying.  "There is only one thief in the (insert your military branch here).  Everyone else is just trying to get their.... stuff... back."

Bish, all I can suggest is to write it down now!!! I used to be able to see a camo pattern used in my old Regular Army division between 1985 and 1987 very clearly in my minds eye for about 5-10 years after. But now that has faded, and it appears to be most unique and hard to locate any photos of on the internet. All the pics I took of it at the time barely show it. and not all sides. Gonna have to wing much of it when I have a go at it.

I was in the Army on active duty and in the National Guard for the rest. I never saw any tools that were not painted OD. After any field use, they were cleaned and painted as needed

O i am with you there. I was just looking at the Acedamy Warrior kit and the Accurate Armour 511 conversion and bar armour set. I would love to build the wagon i drove for 6 years as it appeared in Iraq in 06/07, but i didn't have a digi camera at the time. I think my memory will serve for that though, but anything from the early 90's, i have no chance of relying on memory.

HeavyArty

 Also, like others have said, some are bought at local hardware stores to replace lost ones. 

or sometimes from another platoon/company who was foolish enough to leave theirs out  unguarded when it was accountablity time... Of course I only heard about such things...

Bish, I was like you and from the time I arrived at the reception station before Basic Training at Ft Benning so long ago kept a "modelers eye' towards everything I saw. Oh how I wish digital cameras were around then. My memory of some things, camo patterns, unit emblems, is not what it used to be, and film had to be used much more selectively.

Its amazing how being a modeller make you look at thing a bit different. I spent 6 years driving warriors and i was always looking at things with a model builders eye. How and where the paint chips. How the tracks tust, whenre the dust builds up, where the mud gets.

markings these days are often minimul. Tactitul signs are often small and not obvious. At most you might find marker panels on areas thet may not be so easy for the enemy to see but do ID you as friendly to your own Air.

Markings prevented friendly fire killings. Don't shoot the guy with the white star. We haven't had white star stuff since Vietnam though.

A recruiter doesn't get a tactical vehicle. They are assigned  a GSA vehicle, normally some sort of sedan or regular civilian vehicle. Much like a rent a car. The truck you saw was most likely from a National Guard or Army Reserve unit located in that area.

Well, I know I learned a lot

I've never been in the army so all those things are really fascinating...I can still remember just ogling the tools on that truck, they were almost cartoonish-like the way they were painted. But in hindsight, everything about the truck looked surreal, it was a brand new truck and that happening in a college town (East Lansing) - it could've been a recruiter's truck?

It's funny how my entire thought process was revolving around modeling, though; the last thing a "normal" person would look for in an U.S. Army truck is what color the ax and shovel are painted in :) this hobby is taking its toll on me.

Here is something else I've been thinking about - army markings. Why bother painting an armor in camo to make it harder to spot by an enemy and in the end slap a big ole red/white star/cross on it along with gigantic white numbers? That's like an undercover cop wearing his badge on the outside...

I agree with my brothers above.  Some are painted, some are not.  Also, like others have said, some are bought at local hardware stores to replace lost ones.  I have seen yellow fiberglass axe handles, red plastic handled shovels, etc.  I actually like to throw one of these in the mix to add a splash of color to my model.

when I was in the Service we always painted the metal black and the wood OD. Until we got a new platoon sgt who said we will no longer paint the wood, we will sand it clean and use linseed oil on all wood. The metal was still painted black.

The other two platoons still painted their tools black/OD.

I've spent nearly 28 years (and counting) in the Army. I've seen brand new vehicles issued with tools painted in the forest green CARC paint and I've seen them issued in black metal and shellacked natural wood with ACE Hardware stickers on them.

I've been in units where the tools were kept locked up in a platoon conex in the motor pool and only brought out when the vehicle went to the field or laid out for inventory or inspection. I've also been in units that left the tools mounted to the exterior of the vehicle while they were parked in the motor pool. Those tools tend to look more weather worn than others.

Some units, and this can be crew-specific, will grab a can of spray paint and paint all their tools black or OD. Some will even cut small stencils and spray paint their bumper number on the tools. This was par for the course back when I rode M60A3 tanks.

Missing tools are replaced in a variety of ways. They can come through the supply system, and you can get whatever comes down the line (factory fresh CARC paint or looking like it was bought at Lowe's). Sometimes the soldier who lost the tool will buy it himself if he knows he will have to pay for it any way. Why not grab that shovel a Home Depot for less than the Army supply system will deduct from your pay?

Bottom line, you can never be really wrong when painting hand tools, unless you aim for a gloss silver color. Any combination of wood, black, OD or forest green is fine. Some items like tanker's bars (3 foot long metal bar) can even be found in a close to a dark natural metal color.

T26E4

I recall Steve Zaloga fielding this very question as he builds lots of Allied models.  He said in his research he found that the majority of factory issued pioneer tools were one of three styles (in order of most seen):

1) all olive drab

2) olive drab wood, black painted metal parts

3) natural or stained wood plus black or olive drab metal parts.

But he said he prefers option 3 almost exclusively -- for artistry's sake -- to break up the monotone olive drab vehicle.  Makes sense to me.

It is also in his modeling book, and I agree with him

Not being the 'art" guy but more te 'realistic" guy this is an artistic license I like to take also.

Even on late veicles. I agree with my broters that in the "real" world they are OD and Black...rattle can repainted many times....on a model, it is a place to add contrast.

Now.....back to reality!

Rounds Complete!! 

I know our tools are all kept as they come. When the vehicles are not being used, the tools are removed and pout away. So if the vehicle is being re painted or serviced the tools don't get the same treatment.

There we was, no foolin'....

In the motor pool getting new tracks with new gear to expand out platoon. The tracks were fresh from rebuild at an Army Depot and all the vehicle gear was new GI issue. New stuff came in bare wood handles (D-handled shovel, axe, pick/mattock handle, sledge hammer handle) and black painted metal (shovel, axe head, pick/mattock head, sledge hammer head, and tankers bar-AKA crowbar). After the first field problem they had bare worn areas and were dirty. During recovery operations they were cleaned and painted- black and OD spray paints. Every time we went to the field- which was a LOT in Regular Army Infantry, the process of cleaning and repaintng was repeated upon return to garrison. Sometimes it was neater than others, and often the gear was stenciled with the vehicles bumper number. But that was at a time where we had time (peacetime Army) for such stuff. Fast forward to a GWOT deployment and for some reason painting the pioneer tools on our HMMWVs was never on the schedule. They were in their worn original paint/ bare wood configuration.  On modern US vehicles Ilike to paint them like we had when I was on active duty, OD/Black in various combos. On WWII stuff, I like to paint them in a weathered version of their issued state, bare metal/wood. The choice is yours. You won't be wrong.

I recall Steve Zaloga fielding this very question as he builds lots of Allied models.  He said in his research he found that the majority of factory issued pioneer tools were one of three styles (in order of most seen):

1) all olive drab

2) olive drab wood, black painted metal parts

3) natural or stained wood plus black or olive drab metal parts.

But he said he prefers option 3 almost exclusively -- for artistry's sake -- to break up the monotone olive drab vehicle.  Makes sense to me.

Well, from my point of view, forget all the technical reasons; they don't really concern me. Let me weigh in on the side of "Art", which is, after all, what "modeling" is truly about for me.

It's just like the advice I gave not long ago about weathering vehicles more heavily than some consider "realistic". I said then that the weathering of a vehicle is a reflection of what "War" means to me---it's dirty, nasty, man-killin', vehicle-breaking business. And that's what the weathering says to the viewer. And I like the aesthetics of it so much more than "clean" tanks. They just look too "showroom" for me.

The same thing with tools, in a way. When they show signs of wear, they're saying something about the vehicle and the men being "used", as if there's "life" inside the vehicle, even if you don't show a crew man. ANd they just plain look better.

I judge vehicles sometimes at local model shows, and if I saw a vehicle that had the kinds of tools you described, I have to be honest; my first thought would be "OOPS! The guy forgot to paint his tools!"--and would count that against the model unless some other judge partnered with me pointed out the peculiarities of that vehicle and the time frame.

When I was in the Field Artillery, we would spray paint the tools after about every field exercise. Whatevery green or black spray paint that was available was what we used used. Also the different gun sections would paint a different color (red, blue, green, etc) on their tools for easier accountability.

I laugh at the guys who get picky about certain colors for Army gear, because once it is issued, it's up to the soldier to maintain it. So a lot of tools, helmets, vehicles are touched up or repainted before inspections or during quarterly inventory. They are usually painted with whatever dark color is around.

It also depends on the timeframe in question, the country/service/branch that the vehicle is serving, and, of course, reference photos and other evidence as to whether it's right or wrong. Many photos exist for example showing German vehicles with natural wood handled tools plainly visible.

On modern US armor, it would not be out of place to see a wide variety of colors on regular tools like sledge hammers, picks, etc.  That is because many of these are actually just commercially purchased bits, others which perform vehicle specific functions may just be plain OD Green.  What WOULD probably be wrong is to leave these on the vehicle when you pain on the camo; they would almost certainly be removed first.

Mansteins revenge

"Is everyone wrong?"

No... 

According to my wife, I usually am.

Mansteins revenge

"Is everyone wrong?"

No... 

According to my wife, I usually am.

Because not all ordinance is painted the same color as the carrier-vehicle. Each branch of each military has their own rules / preferences.

No two are exactly the same.

"Is everyone wrong?"

No...