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Panzergrau: Tamiya got the blues?

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Panzergrau: Tamiya got the blues?
Posted by EBergerud on Thursday, March 3, 2011 5:44 AM

Going to start a Pz 38t in a couple of minutes: it's going to Russia so that means Panzergrau. I thought that was simple. Been over on armorama and maybe not so simple. I've got an Osprey masterclass book written by Tony Greenland - champion of very clean, very delicate finish and arch enemy of mud - and he claims Panzergrau has a distinct blue tint - recommends 20% flat blue with Tamiya dark grey (xf23). Tamiya German grey has, I'd guess, a hit of blue in it as well as being a little darker. Maybe just the ticket. (Also found out that ace rivet counters Tony Jentz and Hilary Doyle claim that German armor in May 1940 wore a combination of dark gray and dark brown - shades so close that the difference can't be shown over a computer monitor. That's news to me. Really be nice to know what colors of paint/paste were issued to the field units. There are a lot of ways to make gray, and starting with blue would sure be one of them.)

I want to get this thing rolling and really don't want to order anything. Wehrmacht fans out there give a thumbs up to Tamiya German Grey? And, for future reference, any recommendations for something better?

Eric

 

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Posted by T26E4 on Thursday, March 3, 2011 8:13 PM

I don't find any basis for Greenland's claim.  German dk grey is almost black -- even with extreme lighting, "bluish" hues wouldn't be extant.  Go with Tamiya -- it's fine.

Roy Chow 

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Posted by wbill76 on Thursday, March 3, 2011 8:21 PM

Yep, the original paint chips that Jentz and Doyle provide in the Panzer Tracts series show that the Dunkelgrau we know as "panzer gray" is very dark...period color photos also substantiate this. The tendency to go medium gray or even blue-gray is an artistic license approach and has nothing to do with the reality of the colors used. Panzer gray was applied to vehicles at the factories prior to shipment to the depots and the crews didn't mix their own colors in the field. All colors issued to the crews in the field were in the form of paste tubes that conformed with the appropriate RAL standards for authorized colors. RAL 7021 was established as the standard "panzer gray" color. HTH!

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Posted by EBergerud on Friday, March 4, 2011 7:52 PM

Tamiya's German Grey looks like a good bet and I'm not quibbling with Jentz and Doyle. The problem is that "grey/gray" (they can't even decide how to spell it) is a very odd color. Folks with no taste for color mixing would make a grey by mixing white and black. I'm not sure what would work industrially, but that might not necessarily be the best way to do it. If you wanted a really deep black pitch to mix with a white paste and some thinning agent, you might well have a kind of "chromatic black" which is made with blue. Indeed, there's no doubt that Tamiya "German Grey" has a bluish tinge. BTW: the many photos of Panzergrau vehicles in Greenland's book are all "dark grey" but with a very subtle bit of blue. He used Hannants enamels but recommended Blue and Dark Grey for a Tamiya mix - I'm sure German Grey wasn't available when he wrote. It's true that I've seen some models that have their kits a kind of greyish blue and don't doubt that it may be pretty but is not history. This issue has precedent. I do believe that American sailors throughout WWII were given a kind of deep purple paste with a big bunch of white paste: depending on the ratio you made haze grey, deck blue, navy blue.

Do appreciate the thumbs up on Tamiya. I have a couple of bottles so I won't go looking for more. Can also use it as a benchmark to whip up a batch of Panzergrau with acrylics when I run out.

Eric

 

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Posted by wbill76 on Friday, March 4, 2011 11:29 PM

One of my all-time favorite color photos of a panzer gray vehicle is on the Achtung Panzer website.

The analogy of the colors used for US navy ships and the different mixing ratios doesn't apply to the RAL codes. The RAL codes were established by a central government authority to exacting standards and applied at the factories in huge quantities on an industrial scale. The Waffenamt was notorious for not accepting anything, regardless of gear type, that didn't conform with standards. Granted you might have very slight variations from one paint batch to another but not in terms of chromatic tonal shifts in terms of how the "gray" was comprised in terms of blue tint vs. no blue for example. The RAL standard 7021 does not contain any blue.

The field issued paste tubes/tins were for maintenance touch-ups only in the case of panzer gray, not full-on overall vehicle painting in the field, so any minor variations introduced there due to various thinning agents used would be vehicle specific at most and not wide-spread. Wink

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Posted by Hinksy on Saturday, March 5, 2011 4:50 AM

EBergerud

Tamiya's German Grey looks like a good bet and I'm not quibbling with Jentz and Doyle. The problem is that "grey/gray" (they can't even decide how to spell it) is a very odd color. Folks with no taste for color mixing would make a grey by mixing white and black. I'm not sure what would work industrially, but that might not necessarily be the best way to do it. If you wanted a really deep black pitch to mix with a white paste and some thinning agent, you might well have a kind of "chromatic black" which is made with blue. Indeed, there's no doubt that Tamiya "German Grey" has a bluish tinge. BTW: the many photos of Panzergrau vehicles in Greenland's book are all "dark grey" but with a very subtle bit of blue. He used Hannants enamels but recommended Blue and Dark Grey for a Tamiya mix - I'm sure German Grey wasn't available when he wrote. It's true that I've seen some models that have their kits a kind of greyish blue and don't doubt that it may be pretty but is not history. This issue has precedent. I do believe that American sailors throughout WWII were given a kind of deep purple paste with a big bunch of white paste: depending on the ratio you made haze grey, deck blue, navy blue.

Do appreciate the thumbs up on Tamiya. I have a couple of bottles so I won't go looking for more. Can also use it as a benchmark to whip up a batch of Panzergrau with acrylics when I run out.

Eric

Isn't it spelt 'Gray' in America and 'Grey' (the correct way Wink ) by us Brits?

It's like Armor and Armour!

Onto the actual subject of the question in hand. It'd have to go with Bill on this and say that the 'real' Panzer Grey is VERY dar and almost black BUT I really like to mix my colours and my last StuG (the one the dog ate) was painted with a mix of about 60% XF-63 German Grey and 40% XF-18 Medium Blue with a little dribble of Flat White. It was obviously waaaay too blue but I don't use artistic licence often and I love mixing my own colours. After the basecoat was applied this much lighter shade allowed my pre-shade to show through and and the subsequent weathering would have darkened it a fair chunk anyway.

I've seen some Panzers in the magazines that are virtually painted entirely Medium Blue without a hint of any Grey!

Here's my 'Artistic License' StuG that the dog chewed so it didn't get finished (I've had to order another kit as I've got the Friuls etc) - I don't use my license very often and I'm going to paint the replacement in the same colour too, I really like it but I wouldn't go any brighter:

Many thanks,

Ben Toast 

On the Bench - Dragon Pz. IV Ausf. G (L.A.H.) Yes

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Posted by EBergerud on Saturday, March 5, 2011 4:42 PM

OK, I give up. The photo is from Libya in late 1940 when Rommel first got into town? I think vehicles for what was later called the DAK were initially Panzergrau - the decision to send Germany to Africa was taken in haste. (Might have been important too. Wonder if an extra armored division could have helped Army Group South out in Barbarossa - it was their failure to take Kiev that got Moscow off the hook.) Maybe Tunisia in late 42 - another decision made in haste? The tank looks right off the boat - doesn't show wear or any rust on the muffler.

Ben's color really looks like what Tony Greenland had in mind, although Greenland's techniques for giving "depth" to the model are so old that they're new in some ways. (Light color for prime. Granzergrau or Dunkelgelb over the whole vehicle. Substructure darkened if you use Dunkelgelb: made matte if grey. Upper surface satin. Massive campaign of drybrushing with oils progressively getting lighter and more selective. Topped off with 100% coverage with black, brown or yellow pigments. Wash considered necessary only for zimmerit, but pinwashes recommended. Everything done after construction is complete (I assume minus fiddly bits, although it's not said. This is going to be interesting to someone who has always worked under the influence of Gary Edmundson or Adam Wilder.) As for grey/gray are we modelers or modellers?

There's also the much argued "scale effect." A while back I made a 700 scale Kirishima painted Kure Arsenal Grey - which is very dark. I didn't make any adjustments for scale. I can barely see the thing in my back room: my other ships are all lighter and they show up much better. Ditto on my first tank, Tamiya's old Panzer II which I painted German Gray - it's much more difficult to see than my greenies. That may be very good argument for a little license.

Thankee for the illusion sites - my wife's a teacher and thought them neat. Reminds me of the kind experiments we college students got paid $5 to take (that was a case of beer in the late 60s).  But it's all true. The closest IPMS chapter is a fair distance, but I'm tempted to join. Outside of a very aging collection at the local shop, the only plastic models I've seen in the past year have been the ones I made. Pictures galore. But a photo image is a kind of illusion (I'd like one of Finescale photographers to take some snaps of my efforts - bet it wouldn't hurt) and computer monitors lie like bandits.  Be really interesting to see what a top modeler's work looked like in person.

Eric

 

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Posted by BeltFed on Saturday, March 5, 2011 6:02 PM

wbill76

http://www.achtungpanzer.com/images/pz4caf.jpg

 

 

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Posted by terry35 on Saturday, March 5, 2011 8:59 PM

All I can really add here is that the last time I was speaking to Hilary Doyle about colours he showed me a photo of a Sdfkz 6 or 7 in the factory and it clearly showed the brown applied to the vehicle, but as far as colours go he has an actualpaint sampling chart that was used in the factories to match up painted items to the required standard.

Hilary did tell all the people in attendance that there was a story about 20 panther hulls that failed the primer colour match and were left out in a yard until they could be repainted. I believe that from what Hilary Doyle was pointing to was a simple fact, the vehicles were painted to a given standard in the factory but once in the field it was a different story.

As for the Hannants enamels that were produced to Tony Greenlands specs back in the early 1990's I did buy a set and I did not like them.

Panzer grey kills me because there are so many storys and opinions as to what the exact shade should be.

Terry.

 

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Posted by Bish on Sunday, March 6, 2011 4:50 AM

I am a big fan of the Xtracolour enamels, but i never realised Tony Greenland had a hand in them. But i can't say i have noticed a blue tint in the Panzer grey, it works fine for me. I used to follow Tony's methods after reading an article in FSM from many years ago. But now i have gone off them, though the book mentioned is still a great help.

Terry, i take it you now Hilary personally. I love the books that he brings out, i am currently working my way through getting the panzer Tracts series. The problem for us modellers is that often come out with things that only they seem to discover and we sort of have to take their word for it. There have been two recently. The first was the issue of the 251 re-numbering in relation to the 251/3 and now this thing about German tanks in France and Poland being painted in two colours and not just Panzer grey. I don't recall who brought it up on here a few weeks back. In the panzer tracts books, they don't mention colours, but i just got hiold on number 2-3 which deals with the Pz II D,E and F. Theres some very clear close up shots of German armour in Poland and France, and i can see no evidence of a two colour scheme.

I have no idea where this idea was published, i haven't seen it myself, just what has been said on here. But it can get a bit confuseing when one person, or group of people claim somthing, but no one else does.

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Posted by EBergerud on Sunday, March 6, 2011 6:35 AM

You can check out a short piece by Jentz and Doyle that knocks the Panzer Colors series done by Bruce Culver in the 70s. I've got Culver's volume on camo and assuming that Jentz and Doyle are right Culver's brief mention of pre-war German armor omits yellow. There's a pic you can check out there that is supposed to show the dark brown and dark grey used in the French campaign - unfortunately the colors are so close that you can't tell them apart. Yikes. To be honest, I've never seen an early war German AFV that had a grey/brown scheme - maybe someone with Doyle's books could give us a lead on that.

This whole thing reminds me of a running battle that is still not really settled over the colors worn by Japanese aircraft in the "offensive" stage of the war: was it a light grey or a greenish grey? Anyway, judge for yourself:

http://www.panzertracts.com/PZfacts.htm

I don't know what else they have found to fault in Culver's book but it is available, it's not very expensive and has super photos. I've never seen the enamels Greenland refers to (he makes no claim to be connected with them that I've seen: indeed he uses Tamiya half the time) but if he things you had to add blue to get a Tamiya equivalent that must say something. Tamiya's German Gray definitely has a bit of blue. It actually reminds me a lot of Payne's Gray. But as an earlier post illustrated, eyes do not see the same images. Ideally what you'd really want to know is any numerical reference that would give ratios of primes in the paints. Something like Pantone. But who knows. We've got Federal Standard and when paint makers try to get a WWII equivalent for Olive Drab, they're a little different. When I was doing my last plane, a LA-5, part of the camo is a kind of grimy black widely used in the first half of the war by the Soviets. I thought it was a dead ringer for Payne's Gray: so I mixed it 50/50 with black. Even with the mix, though, the deep blue (actually a kind of purple) showed in the bottle. I almost chickened out. But when it dried the color was, if anything, too close to straight black.Gray/Greys is goofy.

Eric

 

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Posted by wbill76 on Sunday, March 6, 2011 12:49 PM

On the question of the early-war 2-tone scheme in place from Nov '38 to June '40, that information is clearly contained in Panzer Tracts 1-1. They don't repeat it again in other volumes of the series due to the varying print dates and other factors. So you won't see it stated multiple times and the only place it appears is in 1-1 and includes a rarity in the PT series, actual color illustrations of the Dunkelgrau and Dunkelbraun colors prescribed for the 2-tone scheme. Jentz and Doyle support their claims on 2-tone via the use of original/primary source documents for the ordered schemes. The monotone Panzer Gray scheme was not ordered until June '40 and prior to the two-tone scheme, the ordered scheme was 3-tone, so there's no factual evidence to support a monotone Panzer Gray scheme in place for the early WW2 campaigns. The two-tone scheme was applied at the factory or depot level with supplemental instructions that vehicles in the field with the prior three-tone scheme be re-painted as time/materials allowed to conform with the new scheme. That didn't happen universally and by the outbreak of war with Poland, there were still units with gear in the older three-tone scheme.

As for photos showing the two-tone scheme, they exist in both b/w and color. Here are a few examples (taken from a wide variety of sources so not limited to just Messrs Jentz and Doyle in terms of supporting evidence) Wink Notice that these pics are of clean vehicles in the b/w pictures and how hard it is to distinguish the two colors...once you get a nice layer of dust involved, even in the color pic on the Pz II it's extremely hard to pick them out without looking at the pic in high-res and large dimensions.

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Posted by EBergerud on Sunday, March 6, 2011 1:51 PM

Bill,
Thanks muchly. The B&W photos are actually much clearer. This is good news from my point of view. I've got a 1940 PZIV and am looking around for an early Stug III - anything that varies the color scheme is very good news. Now the question is, what color in the real world would best correspond to the 1939-June 1940 German Dark Brown? I assume it would be quite different than the later 3 color brown. Any guesstimates? Maybe this is worth a new thread. (Actually I've got to scan some Culver stuff that gives early war alternatives as Panzergrau vehicles were moved into Africa and later found itself in winter. All would make neat kits. Even the 3 color scheme can get a little repetitive unless you really look at some the variants rarely modeled.

Eric

 

 

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Posted by wbill76 on Sunday, March 6, 2011 2:25 PM

Eric,

Yes the "dunkelbraun" is different from the rot-braun seen in the later '43 onward 3-tone scheme. For my purposes, I found that Testors Modelmaster Schokoladenbraun was a good match.

On a side note, as it relates to a point you made earlier about the N. Afrika vehicles, those were sent over in Feb '41 and by then would've had just the straight panzer gray scheme and not the earlier 2-tone. HTH!

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Posted by EBergerud on Sunday, March 6, 2011 3:38 PM

Very helpful future reference. I'm making a Pz 38T now, but it's going up the Moscow Road. I was thinking of sending an early Panzer IV to Rommel in Libya, but it could just as well go to him in France. I also don't have a Panzer I at all, nor a modern Panzer II. Little color will help out. Was just opening a box in the last few minutes and I see I got a new Tamiya color - XF72 JGSDF Brown which is very chocolate-like.

The early DAK vehicles in Culver's books have some very interesting schemes as they morphed from Panzergrau to the yellow. The Brits and Rooskie aircraft had some interesting camo, but in general I can see why so many people model Axis stuff - there is just so much one can do with olive drab or green. Of course I haven't built any allied armor yet and only two planes. My stuff is all axis and rooskie - gotta change that.

Eric

 

 

 

 

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Posted by EBergerud on Tuesday, March 8, 2011 2:52 AM

Below is a Pz 38T at the museum in Munster. I know exhibits do not necessarily show reality, but it certainly appears as though they have tried to do justice to Panzergrau. I'd say this does justice to the sample from the Jenz/Doyle piece above; it is certainly dark and gray. To my eyes it has a definite bit of blue. Your mileage may vary.

Eric

 

 

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Posted by Bish on Wednesday, March 9, 2011 11:06 AM

Thanks for that info bill. I don't have Panzer tracts 1-1 yet, but it ius on my to get list. I have a few early war panzers to do, including a couple of Pz I's from Poland and France,  so would really like to get this cleared up before i get round to them. Looking at those photos you can see how this could have been missed for all these years. And thinking on some of the photos in PT 2-3 that i just got, i think there may be a few in there that do show the scheme, its just very hard to tell its there.

It seems the further away we get from the war the more accurate materal is getting

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Posted by dupes on Wednesday, March 9, 2011 1:33 PM

Checking in for bookmark purposes...some good pics you fellas have here!

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Posted by EBergerud on Wednesday, March 9, 2011 1:39 PM

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. I've written a lot of military history and used interviews in large number. I don't think the picture should surprise anyone. Anytime a government or organization does something, there's a hierarchy and some kind of "chain of command" involved. These guys put things on paper. Then there's the way things are really done. The two almost never coincide exactly - this drives historians bonkers. It's certainly true that time gives people the opportunity to track down some types of data that are simply lost in the wash. (Things that are hidden are different - in our world, they aren't written down at all. One result of electronic communications, as illustrated by Wikileaks, is a growing "wink wink, nod nod" form of decision making. But this has long been true to some degree.) So you get finds like the black/brown scheme. (Is it clear if this was optional or general?) Backed up with photos, you've got a good find. An earlier thread dealt with how closely field units followed instructions concerning the 3 color schemes. Here you've got the directives from on high clashing with first person accounts given shortly after the war with photos in support. This is the kind of data you lose over time. You know what should be done, but you don't necessarily know how it was done. So, sure, in some ways we know more about the ancient world than Alexander the Great did. (He probably didn't know, for instance, that there was a China.) In other ways, we know profoundly less. But it's nice to have an alternative to all Panzergrau German tanks in France.

Eric

 

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Posted by the doog on Wednesday, March 9, 2011 7:13 PM

EBergerud

There's also the much argued "scale effect." A while back I made a 700 scale Kirishima painted Kure Arsenal Grey - which is very dark. I didn't make any adjustments for scale. I can barely see the thing in my back room: my other ships are all lighter and they show up much better. Ditto on my first tank, Tamiya's old Panzer II which I painted German Gray - it's much more difficult to see than my greenies. That may be very good argument for a little license.

 

Eric

Eric, I'm a huge proponent of "scale effect"--it's a major part of my modeling philosophy and approach. I believe in it absolutely. I encourage you to try it--it makes a big difference, in my opinion, between making a simple model and a realistic miniature.

As far as the whole "blue" thang, I've done the blue-tint to Tamiya, and found it to be a canard. It's purely an artistic choice, and I wasn't even convinced of it on that level. Besides, like all "correct color" arguments, once you drive that vehicle a kilometer and get dust over it, stains, sun-bleaching and whatever constitutes "weathering", the "correct shade" goes right out the window, Choose a ballpark-idea of the color, weather it up, and call 'er done!

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Posted by EBergerud on Wednesday, March 9, 2011 10:31 PM

What do you think about finish? Greenland is adamant that armor should be done in a satin finish. I think that might be true for aircraft, but my tanks have been very flat. I've seen your work and Greenland's in photos but that kind of thing just doesn't come across very well via photo unless you're talking sports cars or Alclad jets.

I was really checking on Tamiya German Gray which seems to get thumbs up. Maybe I ran the thing farther than necessary because I intend on doing more color mixing and gray/grey will is a real challenge. So Tamiya German Gray appears to be just fine for the moment. And it can serve as a "base" to emmulate in future mixes - I've got Blue Ensign paints just to get a base for making Navy Blue, Haze Gray and Deck Blue. But when Greenland wrote his Osprey Masterclass book, Tamiya didn't make German Grey. And if you look at Tamiya Dark Gray it's really not the same at all. It's not quite as dark and it's missing blue period. (Personally I wish the Germans had used blue tanks, and bright yellow ones - like the WWI Flying Circus. Ditto for USN warships.) So if I was mixing my own Panzergrau there'd be some blue in it whether I was lazy and mixed a white and black or made a monocrhomatic black to start with. Marvelous color. But I'll lighten it up a bit.

I agree with you concerning  "realistic" color. But your armor is one of the best advertisements for the heavy weather school of modeling. I think the photo record is perfectly clear that armor in the field was pretty beat-up - mud, dust, dirt galore even if there's no damage. (A tidy warplane would have been a rare bird too.) But if you're going to try a very tidy retro look model like Greenland won a bucket of prizes with in the 90s, I think it's a little more important. Same thing would be true if you were doing a "commision day" ship of the style that a lot of modelers (and museums) like. And handling color well would, I'd think, make the difference between a good and not so good Camaro. Just another skill to aim for if not master.  

Eric

 

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Posted by the doog on Friday, March 11, 2011 10:37 AM

EBergerud

What do you think about finish? Greenland is adamant that armor should be done in a satin finish. I think that might be true for aircraft, but my tanks have been very flat. I've seen your work and Greenland's in photos but that kind of thing just doesn't come across very well via photo unless you're talking sports cars or Alclad jets.

I was really checking on Tamiya German Gray which seems to get thumbs up. Maybe I ran the thing farther than necessary because I intend on doing more color mixing and gray/grey will is a real challenge. So Tamiya German Gray appears to be just fine for the moment. And it can serve as a "base" to emmulate in future mixes - I've got Blue Ensign paints just to get a base for making Navy Blue, Haze Gray and Deck Blue. But when Greenland wrote his Osprey Masterclass book, Tamiya didn't make German Grey. And if you look at Tamiya Dark Gray it's really not the same at all. It's not quite as dark and it's missing blue period. (Personally I wish the Germans had used blue tanks, and bright yellow ones - like the WWI Flying Circus. Ditto for USN warships.) So if I was mixing my own Panzergrau there'd be some blue in it whether I was lazy and mixed a white and black or made a monocrhomatic black to start with. Marvelous color. But I'll lighten it up a bit.

I agree with you concerning  "realistic" color. But your armor is one of the best advertisements for the heavy weather school of modeling. I think the photo record is perfectly clear that armor in the field was pretty beat-up - mud, dust, dirt galore even if there's no damage. (A tidy warplane would have been a rare bird too.) But if you're going to try a very tidy retro look model like Greenland won a bucket of prizes with in the 90s, I think it's a little more important. Same thing would be true if you were doing a "commision day" ship of the style that a lot of modelers (and museums) like. And handling color well would, I'd think, make the difference between a good and not so good Camaro. Just another skill to aim for if not master.  

Eric

Eric, first, let me thank you sincerely for your generous praise and comments on my work. Smile It's much appreciated.

I see what you're saying about doing a "retro" clean-style model such as Greenland. In that case, I do agree that a satin finish is probably a better compliment to the model, because it would tend to enhance the chromatic richness of the paint. I also think that it would be entirely possibler to even post-shade the model even with a satin sheen on it, and still get away with a realistic "retro" finish. Adam Wilder is a great proponent of varying the sheen of a paint finish, and I still have much to learn from hi in this regard.

As far as the shade of gray'grey, I wouldn't get TOO over-analytical about it. Go with a shade that pleases your eye, and enjoy the modeling aspect and the joy of creation and personalization. In the end, you're not going to please EVERY judge--I know this from personal experience. The best feeling that you can have is putting a model on the judging table with you yourself being pleased and proud of its finish, and not really needing the dubious "validation" of the judges. When it comes from fellow modelers, its even more satisfying---and if you put your heart and confidence into a model, you usually connect with other modelers on that important level. Wink

I will have a very busy weekend, and apologize in advance if I am not able to respond to another post today. Good luck in your endeavors!

 

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  • From: Dublin Rep Of Ireland
Posted by terry35 on Saturday, March 12, 2011 4:35 PM

I must say that I am finding this thread very interesting, I don't really have any input to be of any help but I feel that I must say that since I read Karls  input I  must say that Karl has made points that I fully agree with. Personally If I was going for something with panzer grau I would take what I would believe to be as close as possible, by the time weathering is finished nobody will notice.I still dry brush my models and as I type I hope I have not opened up another can of worms as I have noticed it can cause all kinds of debate these days.Embarrassed I too am a great fan of Adam Wilder and the different shades, Satin/Matt in different areas is something I would love to have the guts to try, his work is just killer.

I do remember seeing Military Modelling in the 1980's and the first time I seen Tony Greenlands work I was stunned, I actually carried issues with his work in my schoolbag.

When I went to Euro Militare for the first time about 1989-90 can't remember which year, I actually got to see Tony Greenlands work in the flesh in the big glass case down in the competition room.

I clearly remember that it did not seem to have a satin finish and I would think that the photography in the books and magazines make his work look more dramatic as in the flesh they seemed restrained but still beautifully executed.

Bish, those  Xtracolour paints I mentioned were actually sold by Historex agents of all places and at the time it was kind of a selling point that they were developed in conjunction with Tony Greenland.

I had a set and they were gloss....... I hate gloss. I think it was something to do with the preparation for decalling.

Terry.

  • Member since
    February 2010
  • From: Berkeley CA/St. Paul MN
Posted by EBergerud on Sunday, March 13, 2011 4:07 AM

Glad you found this meander of interest. It's my own folly - I have no reason to produce a state of the art 90's tank, especially as 1) I know I'm not good enough and 2) I like the Edmundson/Wilder approach better. I am hoping it will make me a better modeler simply because the approach is quite different - it certainly can't do any harm.

I'd still like to see those RAL standards. Not knowing how they're worded I can't guess at the content. But as I understand it a lot of industrial "black" is a kind of monocrhomatic black which would have blue in it somewhere. Obviously I don't have a clue what formula the Germans used. My eyes tells me that Tamiya thinks there is a hit of blue in it. But my eyes could be playing tricks or Tamiya might have it wrong.

As far as the satin goes, Greenland discusses it at length and considers a satin superstructure contrasting with a flat substructure to be central to a successful tank. He doesn't want gloss, but satin. (Get it by putting a drop of clear in the paint. Bottom if flat.) Do note that Greenland does not want to weather his tanks heavily - he says he makes model tanks, not model muddy tanks. I think tanks would have dirty and dusty and would have looked flat even if painted like a F1 car. (Unless it was purple.) But I've asked myself the satin/flat question while looking at a real WWII fighters being reconditioned at Chino. (One was a "natural" P-38: it certainly wasn't shining silver.) Wilder says that if you want plastic to look like metal you have make it look "moist." I'd say he's right concerning aircraft, but it could just be all of the curves and angles playing with the light. Next time I see a M-1 I'll give it a real look over. Funny - I've seen hundreds of military vehicles, aircraft and ships and simply not looked at them in the right way. 

Eric

 

A model boat is much cheaper than a real one and won't sink with you in it.

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Sunday, March 13, 2011 7:38 AM

terry35

Bish, those  Xtracolour paints I mentioned were actually sold by Historex agents of all places and at the time it was kind of a selling point that they were developed in conjunction with Tony Greenland.

I had a set and they were gloss....... I hate gloss. I think it was something to do with the preparation for decalling.

Terry.

I have been useing those paints fior about 15-20 years. I always get mine from Hannants, never realise Historex used to do them. One of the reason i like them is because they are gloss,makes it easier for cedals to go down. Its not so much an issue with armour, more so with aircraft. I guess its just down to what you are used to, but for me its my first paint of choice.

I am a Norfolk man and i glory in being so

 

On the bench: Airfix 1/72nd Harrier GR.3/Fujimi 1/72nd Ju 87D-3

  • Member since
    February 2010
  • From: Berkeley CA/St. Paul MN
Posted by EBergerud on Monday, March 14, 2011 3:53 AM

Like to finish this post with a defense of one of these reference books modelers are supposed to have. An article by Lentz and Doyle put the knock on the widely available Panzer Colors series by Bruce Culver. In an article quoted earlier in this thread, Lentz/Doyle claimed Culver simply hadn't done his homework and had missed the fact that German AFVs in France 1940 could have had a brown and gray - claimed Culver put the Panzergrau directive in place sooner than it should have. I do history and should have checked the quote. Culver does not say this. What he does say an order (designed to save paint) put out just before Poland calling for all gray. He also said that this order was "probably" not carried out. During the intense build up in the winter (that certainly took place) Culver argues that most but not all of the AFVs would have been made Panzergrau. The directive finishing the issue came (as Lentz and Doyle confirm) in July 1940. So, despite the Lentz/Doyle knock, Culver certainly allows for a two tone 1940 tank. What he didn't do was provide any of the neat pictures produced in this thread. (Thanks again for those: my next 1940 tank will certainly use it.) Anyway, if you want to know some good stuff about German camo and enjoy some terrific photos, I think you can safely buy "Panzer Colors" by Bruce Culver and Bill Murphy. Unless you really want to know a lot about markings, make sure your volume says "Camouflage of the German Panzer Forces 1939-45." Good stuff: widely available: pretty cheap.

Eric

Eric

 

A model boat is much cheaper than a real one and won't sink with you in it.

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Wednesday, March 16, 2011 7:54 AM

So what the outcome of this seems to be is that Jentz/Doyle claim that no German armour was painted all panzer grey until after France. But Culver suggests that Some could have been re-painted before France, and possably even before Poland.

I guess for the Armour builder that just leave it open to your own choice. Model companies still put out these early war tanks with an all grey scheme, for both Poland and France, whcih also lerave it open to how we want to apply the two tone scheme. But once again i think its safe to say there no real right or wrong in this.

I take it you mean the Panzer Colors that come in 3 Volumes.

I am a Norfolk man and i glory in being so

 

On the bench: Airfix 1/72nd Harrier GR.3/Fujimi 1/72nd Ju 87D-3

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Texas
Posted by wbill76 on Wednesday, March 16, 2011 12:27 PM

Always have to bear in mind the timing of research and the available documents/sources used at the time of publication. There are many books/references still in print today and circulating that contain outdated/inaccurate/no longer accepted information on a variety of topics, not least of which are those concerning WW2. Wink  

  • Member since
    February 2010
  • From: Berkeley CA/St. Paul MN
Posted by EBergerud on Wednesday, March 16, 2011 6:49 PM

Normal 0

I've taught and written military/diplomatic history my entire life and can testify that "revising" a given party line can make for some very good history: see the much more complex and rich view of the Crusades held by contemporary historians when compared to the cardboard "religious fanatics/land-hungry noble" argument put forth by Gibbon and copied until the 1950s. It can also lead to calamity: I saw diplomatic history destroyed by neo-Marxists writing during the heated atmosphere of Vietnam convince the bulk of the historical community that the Cold War was caused by Harry Truman and not Joseph Stalin. (This point of view has changed a bit since scholars got into the former Soviet archives, mostly thanks to Boris Yeltsin. Turns out "Uncle Joe" was a bigger thug than we dreamed.) One thing about "revisionism" - it's a very good way to get attention if you can make your case. And it reflects a very profound and fascinating phenomenon: at certain levels we know more about the past than those people who lived in it, at others, we know profoundly less. This is true in little issues too. Can even raise temperatures in the room. (Henry Kissinger once remarked that faculty politics were so nasty because the issues were so small.) So let’s look at the great color debate.

 

Jentz and Doyle have spent years writing and researching German armor. They’ve obviously found a good niche. I have one of their books and I like it. Along the way, however, they found it useful to make what I find an extremely questionable argument that knocks a prominent work of the generation preceeding them – “Panzer Colors” by Culver/Murphy. Below are some bits from a piece by Jentz and Doyle: note their claim to new evidence and the implied argument and Culver and Murphy didn’t do their job:

 

_______________________________________________________

Panzer Facts #4

ACCURATE CAMOUFLAGE COLORS AND PATTERNS
FOR GERMAN PANZERS FROM 1933 TO 1943

by Thomas L. Jentz and Hilary L. Doyle

The correct camouflage colors and patterns applied to German Panzers from 1933 to 1943 have been published in the recently released Panzer Tracts No.1-2 - Panzerkampfwagen I - kl.Pz.Bef.Wg. to VK 18.01. These colors are based on German Army orders and manuals and original RAL paint chips from 1922 to 1941.

How did we succeed in getting these colors and patterns right when so many other attempts have failed? The answer is simple - persistent in-depth research that took over 15 years. This investment in time and money was needed to sort out the right answers when we were faced with seemingly contradictory evidence. We also refused to release the results until we could accurately print the colors through a tightly controlled process.

What caused others to publish results that are so far off the mark? It shouldn't have been lack of guidance. Our good friend and mentor, Walter J. Spielberger wrote an article entitled "Coloring of German WWII Tanks" which was printed in George Bradford's AFV News Vol. No.3 in November 1965. Spielberger stated that: "Up to 1935, the Reichswehr colored their vehicles in the usual multicolor pattern, mainly green, brown, and yellow. Starting in 1935, the official paint for all German vehicles, including armor, was a dark grey/dark brown combination. Since 1940 the dark brown was discontinued and all vehicles were painted in dark grey only. . ."

As an example let's look at the Squadron/Signal Publication "Panzer Colors" since it is widely known and many modelers, model magazines, and other authors use it as their key reference. The authors of "Panzer Colors" state:in their Sources and Acknowledgements:
"The basic information on official WW II German camouflage color specifications is contained in a c. 1957 paper by F. Wiener, written for the R.A.C. Tank Museum at Bovington. . . Walter Spielberger's book on German armored cars, 1900-1945, provided the material on Reichwehr color schemes. . ."

on page 9 in the text:
In 1922 new standards for painting vehicles were issued, retaining the wartime gray, green, and brown for combat type vehicles, . . .

on page 10 in the text:
In 1935, the new Wehrmacht standardized a new basic scheme for all large items of military equipment, including all vehicles and large weapons. The colors were dark gray and dark brown, and the proportion of color to be used was 2/3 gray to 1/3 brown, . . ."

and, on page 11:
"The Campaign in France and the Low Countries was fought by German vehicle painted overall dark gray, . . ."

Walter Spielberger had already correctly determined that the Reichswehr colors were yellow, green, and brown not gray, green, and brown. So where did the authors of "Panzer Colors" come up with the idea that the "Reichswehr" colors were gray, green, and brown - and - where did they get the false impression that Panzers employed in Poland and the Campaign in the West were painted dark gray? Let's take a look at the reference that they claimed was used.

David Fletcher at The Tank Museum provided a copy of the document that the authors of Panzer Colors stated that they had used. The report "Der Anstrich des Heeresgeraets 1939-1945 1945" was written by Fritz Wiener (a close associate of Walter Spielberger). This report had been translated into English in November 1967 as "Painting of Army Equipment 1939 - 45" and contains the following relevant statements: "With the change from multi-coloured combat uniforms to plain colours, striking colours were avoided on equipment. As far back as 1914 all armies went on active service with their equipment painted grey-green, grey-brown or in a similar unobtrusive colour. During the first World War they attempted to make large equipments (guns, vehicles, etc.) less visible to the enemy by painting them with large irregular patches in shades of grey, green, and brown. This so called "Mimicry" type of painting was then adopted by the Armed Forces (Reichswehr). . . After 1935, the Armed Forces introduced a new and considerably darker shade of grey-brown for use on their equipment. . . .This paint was in general use in the Fall of 1939, but the first alteration came in 1939 (sic - 1940 in the original document).

 

 

OK: now let’s see what Culver and Murphy actually wrote on the page 10 – a page before they made their “error” and one not mentioned by Lentz/Doyle:

 

“Late in 1939, a new specification was promulgated, changing the official vehicle color scheme. In order to save supplies of paint, vehicles and equipment – previously painted dark gray and dark brown – were to be painted in overall dark gray. It is probable that this order was not completely carried out before the invasion of Poland on 1 September 1939. After the Polish campaign had ended, the winter of 1939/1940 was spent in repairing damaged vehicles, bringing the new Panzer Divisions up to strength and replacing many obsolete tanks and vehicles with more advanced types. By Spring of 1940, most vehicles were painted in the single color dark gray. HM 1940, no. 864, dated July 31, 1940 standardized this order for all vehicles and heavy equipment.”

 

Culver was wrong about the Reichswehr Yellow. But what the two tone Panzers of 39/40? In another piece Lentz/Doyle argued that “all” AFVs through the French campaign were in two tone. Culver argues that those two tone vehicles still in use from Poland (several hundred vehicles) would like have remained two tone in France, but that anything new or rebuilt would have been gray. So Culver says some of the AFVs were brown/gray but most gray. (For Lentz/Doyle claims see below.)

 

(http://www.armorama.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=SquawkBox&file=index&req=viewtopic&topic_id=172769&page=1

But let’s get down to where the two agree. Both Culver and Lentz/Doyle agree that something happened in 1939 concerning color: this quotes Lentz from above: .”After 1935, the Armed Forces introduced a new and considerably darker shade of grey-brown for use on their equipment. . . .This paint was in general use in the Fall of 1939, but the first alteration came in 1939 (sic - 1940 in the original document).” Do note the term “alteration” – this means something changed. Culver wrote a new order was “promulgated” in late 1939 (not clear if this meant after Poland, but if the incentive was to save paint, this would have referred to new vehicles – you wouldn’t save paint by repainting old ones) ordered vehicles be painted gray. The two are saying exactly the same thing here. What Culver doesn’t have is a Directive #. If you’ve ever studied a bureaucracy you’ll know that a good idea leading to action on the is often later followed up some a stamp of approval written in triplicate by the appropriate office. So let’s think this one through.

  1. Everyone who was there and talked about it said German tanks in France were gray. Lentz/Doyle argue that the gray and brown colors were so close that they are rarely possible to identify in the photo record. Lentz/Doyle repeatedly claim the photo record is overwhelmingly misleading – this tells you what the people that took the photos thought. To me, this is a red flag.
  2. Both Lentz/Doyle and Culver agree that something happened in late 1939 to alter the brown/gray pattern. I guess Lentz/Doyle argue that this was a proposal not acted upon until it had been approved by channels in July 1940 when gray was adopted as a general color. Culver/Murphy argue that in late 1939 the Wehrmacht began painting new AFVs gray but that this did not become the norm until the reequipment process of winter 39-40. (I can testify that the process referred to did take place. It was a time of furious activity throughout the Wehrmacht – indeed, the speed with which they worked as opposed to their enemies showed up in May 1940.) Culver agrees that some German AFVs would still have had the gray/brown scheme in May 1940. Lentz/Doyle argue they all did.
  3. Classic impasse. A conservative historian would say “case not proven” and leave it at that. Let’s look for something that has the “ring of truth.” A change in color scheme either takes place or is proposed in late 1939. The status quo was gray/brown. Why make the change at all? Two answers immediately suggest themselves. 1) Because the colors were so close, painting them both was a waste of energy. 2) All gray was better, so let’s change what we’re doing and paint them all gray.
  4. This leaves at another point where there is agreement. In July 1940 the Wehrmacht went all gray. They did this in the wake of the most spectacular military victory of the 20th century until that time. If all AFVs in the Wehrmacht were gray/brown, why, pray tell, would they make the change at all? Was this simple inertia – of a decision proposed in late 39 put into action in the summer of 1940 regardless of the outcome of the greatest triumph in the history of German arms? Or was it the final bureaucratic seal of approval of a process that had been going on for about nine months and was viewed as vindicated by the French campaign? (Would also mean repainting a small number of two toned vehicles as opposed to repainting the entire Panzerwaffe.) Might add that the second argument sits nicely on the side of the photo record and the memories of a small army of old soldiers.

 

I have not and will not spend years studying German AFV colors. Maybe Lentz and Doyle are right. If so good for them. If nothing else, modelers can paint brown and gray early war tanks. If they had a proper “paper trail” rightly beloved of historians, there’d be no quibbling. Some progression of documents that said “we’re wasting the German tax-payer’s Reichsmarks on brown paint – let’s think about repainting the army next summer.” And maybe they took one document and a very select group of photos and came to the wrong conclusion. If they did so, they would be in a very large boat. There are few more vague notions on earth than progress, and nobody in the field of history will take newer research as better.

 

And while we’re at it what is gray? If you really want to know what Panzergrau looked like at the factory you’d need to know the pigments and their ratios. Knowing the “color” tells you only the ball park. In front of me I have a tube of Winton “Paynes Gray” one of the most important colors in art. Winton, like all quality paints, lists its pigments. Here’s how they make their “gray”:   Pigments- Ultramarine (PB29; Amorphious Carbon (PBk6); Powdered Slate (PBk19). Used individually those pigments would make dark blue, black and white paints. Together they make a dark gray. I used this paint in addition to some black and white (basic gray) and got a dead ringer for Tamiya German Grey.

 The End.

 Eric

 

A model boat is much cheaper than a real one and won't sink with you in it.

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