"Scientists vs Artists" from S. Zaloga

My models will never be in a museum.

My models will never be in print.

I don't sell my models.

So my color theory?  I paint my models to my liking because I'm really the only one who sees them.  I model for me and no one else.  So what do I care if someone thinks my OD is too light or too dark?

-Jesse

Great post Karl. I don't have an input but I just can add that I rarely buy exact matches..... I also agree that by the time something is weathered down an exact match will never be noticed.

Thanks for posting the link it was a well worthwhile read.

Terry.

I too will strive to get as close as I can with what paints I've got on hand. The wash and subsequent weathering will alter the base color anyway. I don't worry about it any more.

I agree with Manny's position as stated early on in the thread. (Just sucking up.)

I just spray and pray...I try to do my best but I don't worry too much about it. Besides just like buying paint.

Like!

I've never been too concerned with color matches. I've seen how soldiers often paint vehicles. Mixed paints, thick at first, thinner as you start to run out and need it to last. Air gunned until someone stops without cleaning it and getting it clogged, hand brushed with worn out brushes. Cans mixed to make the colors last longer, etc. Old half dried cans from last year mixed with new cans from another manufacturer to use this year.

Factory fresh is one thing (often really nice paint jobs), after a year in the field, beat to heck, but not rusty or chipped to the primer.

Going back to WW2 color photos, not even the greatest source since the photos were taken with 60, almost 70 yr old technology.

Paint chips have the problems stated above, heck, grab a paint chip sample at Lowe's and then slap that paint on the living room wall and it looks different.

redleg12

WOW....you are wound up tighter than a dime store alarm clock....

Calm yourself....my post is just an old gas passer expressing some views for our newer members. I made a joke about me rivit counting (though I love my details) and you get all serious on me

I had the impression that the doog's rivet counting comment was in relation to a post on page 1 rather than anything you said, Mike. But really, that is neither here nor there...

As I said, I am not one to get too concerned about the 'scale effect'. Maybe it is because I don't have that type of time or artistic sense. However, I don't doubt that it exists and if people want to replicate it, more power to them (sort of like color modulation).

I am glad to see, however, that the consensus seems to be that, ultimately, we each do what looks, feels, works, right for us.

Whew....glad to hear Doog is still Redleg's best friend!!

Expanding on my NA vs EU comment.....we tend to have tons of AM and IMO enjoy the build. The EU tend to move through the build and spend much more time on finish. Again just my opinion. In line with art vs science,

Now as far as the clock....I keep it next to the rotary phone with my slide ruler nearby.

Rounds Complete!!

redleg12

WOW....you are wound up tighter than a dime store alarm clock....

Awww come one..... nobody winds alarm clocks anymore! Good comment about the N.A. vs. European "style". I've noticed that comparing several mags from the UK (that shall not be named here!). A lot more building rather than assembling - which carries over to the paint as well. They seem to be more about the overall look rather than an exact duplicate of something.

redleg12

WOW....you are wound up tighter than a dime store alarm clock....

 

The last post was coming from experience, and I'll just leave it at that, but I'm sure you know what I mean...\

Everything's rosy in the Dooghouse, trust me...

Heck , i think this has been a good exchange of  idea's  .

WOW....you are wound up tighter than a dime store alarm clock....

Calm yourself....my post is just an old gas passer expressing some views for our newer members. I made a joke about me rivit counting (though I love my details) and you get all serious on me

Chill....its only a hobby.....if we all have to post 3 paragrph disclamers, its time to go

Relax.....its just your anal friend joining in. The post I made was having fun. Your style is completly different than mine but I agree with you.....you need some laughing gas...I'll join you in a hit.

Rounds Complete!!

redleg12

OK Karl....someone has to disagree.....well a little....

I fully agree with Steve's article and as such, depending on the era and the OD, always try to stay a bit lighter. For WWII I prefer the Poly Scale 505370 OD (stocked up on it) I like to use the Tamiya XF-62 for dark shading areas. They blend well.

Now for the disagreement....he used science to prove his point!!

In general, I like things to look realistic from 20 years of being around 1:1. I am not into the heavy rusting, chipping etc. For me that is way too artistic....but that's my eye 

If you look at the european style of modeling vs north american, we are more anal and into details as opposed to the artistic interpertation of europe (see Mig J). We are more engineers while they are artists.

As Mig said during one of his seminars at AMPS....this is not reality....this is a hobby...an art. And like the many masters, there are many styles.

Be happy in your style.....there is no right of wrong....have a thick skin because everyone has an opinion and they are all different....

This opinion is presented by the Field Artillery bolt counters association!!

With all this, get in the car and look in the passenger mirror..."things may be closer than they appear"....the scale effect

Rounds Complete!!

 

In a way, I posted this post because I've received so many requests--as well as much-appreciated credit--from modelers asking questions about how to get the finishes I do. The methods I use have helped me to make some money in publishing articles, and also gotten me free stuff from model companies. Hey, not too bad for a hobby?

And the very FIRST STEP in my methods is the use of "scale effect" base coat painting. And this is also used in the subsequent, somewhat-radical post-shading that I use. Before I started applying that philosophy, my models didn't really "pop" the way they do lately, if you ask me. Take it for what it's worth. I thought it was interesting that a well-respected voice within the hobby both endorsed the technique and actually seems to have proved its relevance and reality when there HAVE been voices which have expressed doubt that it was anything more than illusory, and on this and other forums there have been some contentious opinions expressed against it.. As you know, I have always endorsed it, and make no beans about it.

I would never say that anyone NOT using it is making any kind of mistake or error; it's all personal style and choice. Do whatever pleases you, honestly. It's not going to change my style, and I'm not trying to change yours.

The whole other discussion about "rivet counting" is, IMO, completely irrelevant here. Carry on, y'all.

MAJ Mike

I haven't the skill to worry about scale in paint colors and I'm not anal enough to count the number of bolts on the road wheels of a Panther D vs the number of bolts on the road wheels of a Panther A.

Amongst historical re-enactors, there is a sub-species called "Khaki ***" or "Stitch ***".  They actuall obcess over the number of stitches in the cuff of an M1941 field jacket and believe that the accurate color for WWII G.I. uniforms is a golden khaki.

I see this in model building.  For the most part, if the final result is pleasing to the eye of the constructor, then mission accomplished.  We all focus on certain things when we build a model.  Some tank builders are obcessed with rust and mud (golly gosh, I thought were building a model of a Jagdpanzer IV Lang, not a pile of mud and grease).  Aircraft modelers obcess over the interior paint color of a disposable suicide Baka/Oka flying bomb.

Get a grip, folks.  Its supposed to be fun.  Enjoy the historical research and the sense of accomplishment.  But really, does it really matter how many bolts are the road wheels of a specific model of tank?  Sheesh!

What he said!

OK Karl....someone has to disagree.....well a little....

I fully agree with Steve's article and as such, depending on the era and the OD, always try to stay a bit lighter. For WWII I prefer the Poly Scale 505370 OD (stocked up on it) I like to use the Tamiya XF-62 for dark shading areas. They blend well.

Now for the disagreement....he used science to prove his point!!

In general, I like things to look realistic from 20 years of being around 1:1. I am not into the heavy rusting, chipping etc. For me that is way too artistic....but that's my eye 

If you look at the european style of modeling vs north american, we are more anal and into details as opposed to the artistic interpertation of europe (see Mig J). We are more engineers while they are artists.

As Mig said during one of his seminars at AMPS....this is not reality....this is a hobby...an art. And like the many masters, there are many styles.

Be happy in your style.....there is no right of wrong....have a thick skin because everyone has an opinion and they are all different....

This opinion is presented by the Field Artillery bolt counters association!!

With all this, get in the car and look in the passenger mirror..."things may be closer than they appear"....the scale effect

Rounds Complete!!

MAJ Mike

I haven't the skill to worry about scale in paint colors and I'm not anal enough to count the number of bolts on the road wheels of a Panther D vs the number of bolts on the road wheels of a Panther A.

Amongst historical re-enactors, there is a sub-species called "Khaki ***" or "Stitch ***".  They actuall obcess over the number of stitches in the cuff of an M1941 field jacket and believe that the accurate color for WWII G.I. uniforms is a golden khaki.

I see this in model building.  For the most part, if the final result is pleasing to the eye of the constructor, then mission accomplished.  We all focus on certain things when we build a model.  Some tank builders are obcessed with rust and mud (golly gosh, I thought were building a model of a Jagdpanzer IV Lang, not a pile of mud and grease).  Aircraft modelers obcess over the interior paint color of a disposable suicide Baka/Oka flying bomb.

Get a grip, folks.  Its supposed to be fun.  Enjoy the historical research and the sense of accomplishment.  But really, does it really matter how many bolts are the road wheels of a specific model of tank?  Sheesh!

Amen brother.

Shellback

I have another take on scale effecdt . Have you ever taken a Macro setting close up of your model , an area that is 2 inches square on the actual model , then after loading it into your computer that same area fills up the entire screen ........... all  a sudden you see every piece of fiber / hair that was within 300 ft of your model attached to your work of art and making your model look like it was drug across the floor of a barber shop ! Now thats Scale Effect !!!!

I have the exact issue when takings pictures of my braille scale builds. Even a thorough dusting just before a photo session does not get all the fluff either!

    I myself think that if it looks right and I'm happy with it, then its good enough for me. I'm the one who will see it every day on my shelf. If I think its good enough to post then I will do so and will take any advice and critique...or not. If I'm going for historical accuracy then I might be a bit more anal. I guess I side with the artists.





Chazzer (Scott)

VanceCrozier

 

grrrrr - I hate that effect. I usually notice it shortly after applying a coat of future

Same here , just when i'm ready to post the picture , all of that junk pops out !

Interesting to read all comments!  I am glad I read the article before I went farther with my Chaffee.  Now it made me wonder if there is similar articles about Panzer Grey and Dark Yellow too?  I'd like to read those...

I remember a story about scale effect. This railroad modeler made a friend with someone that worked at Santa Fe. From his friend he obtained a small can of Santa Fe blue. When he painted his diesel engine that colored, it was way too dark, looked almost black the blue was so dark.

The paints offered to modelers are tinted down to represent this. I beliee to a scale of 1/35 or 1/48. I was told by older hobbyists to add white to color for 1/72 scale kits.

Mike T.

Shellback

I have another take on scale effecdt . Have you ever taken a Macro setting close up of your model , an area that is 2 inches square on the actual model , then after loading it into your computer that same area fills up the entire screen ........... all  a sudden you see every piece of fiber / hair that was within 300 ft of your model attached to your work of art and making your model look like it was drug across the floor of a barber shop ! Now thats Scale Effect !!!!

grrrrr - I hate that effect. I usually notice it shortly after applying a coat of future

Personally, I use the "eyeball" effect.......... 

MAJ Mike

Shellback:

 

Not to mention cat hair.

LOL ! 

Shellback

I have another take on scale effecdt . Have you ever taken a Macro setting close up of your model , an area that is 2 inches square on the actual model , then after loading it into your computer that same area fills up the entire screen ........... all  a sudden you see every piece of fiber / hair that was within 300 ft of your model attached to your work of art and making your model look like it was drug across the floor of a barber shop ! Now thats Scale Effect !!!!

Not to mention cat hair.

I have another take on scale effecdt . Have you ever taken a Macro setting close up of your model , an area that is 2 inches square on the actual model , then after loading it into your computer that same area fills up the entire screen ........... all  a sudden you see every piece of fiber / hair that was within 300 ft of your model attached to your work of art and making your model look like it was drug across the floor of a barber shop ! Now thats Scale Effect !!!!

Manstein's revenge

I find that article to be very interesting...I think I fall somewhere inbetween the two: scientists and artists, leaning a bit more to the artistic side.  I don't obsess over exact shades most of the time but I also don't subscribe to the "anything goes" as long as you are happy with it point of view either...

As usual (no sucking up, just sayn') Manny prettty much nails it.  I'm sorta in the middle myself.  I use MM enamel becuase they seem to be pretty accurate, but I'm not overly anal about.  I like the historical research and don't apply divisional markings to vehicles never issued to those units. 

But still, unless you're interested in entering competitions (I'm not), then build it to your satisfaction.  Besides we tend to be our own harshest critics.

While I agree that the 'scale effect' undoubtedly exists, I don't really give it much thought. I fall into the 'if it looks good enough' camp. I'm not going to agonize over whether or not my paints are lightened enough to represent what the model would look like in full size from X feet...

Considering the degrees of weathering that most go to these days, I think the impact of the scale effect is often lost once all the weathering is applied...