Calling all Pz.IV "Brummbar" experts out there!

Guess i was wrong. Oh well that doesn't change the fact that i want to model one. thanks all of you for taking time out of your day to reply to my questions.

Rob Gronovius

modeler#1:

I would have to agree with you doog,although I thought it was more of a anti tank vehicle instead. But still if it were late into the war then I think it would be safe to say that the Germans wouldn't care about it's designated role and just place Night fighting equipment on the most readily available vehicle regardless of it's job that it was meant to fulfill.

 

It was definitely not an anti-tank weapon. It was a siege weapon to be used against fixed fortifications or just to lay waste to civilian buildings. It wasn't even accurate artillery; just roll up to within range and lob rounds. I believe they were created to deal with street fighting/house to house fighting in Russian cities.

modeler#1

 

 

 

 But still if it were late into the war then I think it would be safe to say that the Germans wouldn't care about it's designated role and just place Night fighting equipment on the most readily available vehicle regardless of it's job that it was meant to fulfill.

This is one of those modeling myths that I wish would just go away.  The others have all given you good information.

modeler#1

I would have to agree with you doog,although I thought it was more of a anti tank vehicle instead. But still if it were late into the war then I think it would be safe to say that the Germans wouldn't care about it's designated role and just place Night fighting equipment on the most readily available vehicle regardless of it's job that it was meant to fulfill.

It was definitely not an anti-tank weapon. It was a siege weapon to be used against fixed fortifications or just to lay waste to civilian buildings. It wasn't even accurate artillery; just roll up to within range and lob rounds. I believe they were created to deal with street fighting/house to house fighting in Russian cities.

I would hazard a no to this one.   They were probably just "attached" temporarily to 23 Panzer. 

http://www.colleurs-de-plastique.com/forums/showthread.php?29181-Brummb%E4r-quot-late-quot/page5

These are 2 late Brummbars supposedly from St.Pz.Abt.219 in Hungary 1945. I can't see any other markings other than their numbers.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/47207/thread/1025036106/Brummbar+late+-+question 

According to this link in Missing-Lynx, and the pictures, some Late models did not have zimmerit, althought surviving pictures of Late models are supposed to be scarce to begin with.

Hope it helps!

Jean-Michel

Gun Tech

219 was formed in Sept 1944. In Dec, it was moved to Hungary.  In Jan 1945, it took part in the fighting around Budapest as part of 23rd Panzer Division.  In March, it was moved to Czechoslovakia to be refitted after losing all their Brummbars.

Does  this mean that they would be marked with the 23rd Pz division sign?

The Brummbar was mainly used by Sturmpanzerabteilung 216, 217, 218 and 219.

216 moved to the Eastern front in June 1943 and fought at Kursk.  It was then refitted in Sept and fought in Russia until Dec, where it moved back to Germany.  It moved to Italy in Feb 1944 and fought there until the end of the war.

217 formed between Apr - June 1944 and was sent to Normandy in July where part of it was destroyed at Falaise, while the rest return to Holland.  It took part in the Ardennes offensive, and then fought defensively while retreating, ending up the war in the Rhur pocket in April 1945.

218 began forming in Jan 1945 and was ready for combat in March.

219 was formed in Sept 1944. In Dec, it was moved to Hungary.  In Jan 1945, it took part in the fighting around Budapest as part of 23rd Panzer Division.  In March, it was moved to Czechoslovakia to be refitted after losing all their Brummbars.

An independant company was formed in Aug 1944, called Sturmpanzer-Kompanie z.b.V. 218.  It took part in the fighting around Warsaw during the uprising.  It stayed in Poland until becoming part of  Sturmpanzerabteilung 218 in Jan 1945.

This is what I could find on Achtung Panzer, and could not find anything else saying something different in my other references. Sturmpanzer-Kompanie z.b.V. 218 and Sturmpanzerabteilung 219 would be your best choices for an late Eastern front setting.

the doog

Being that the Brumbarr was an artillery-classed vehicle commissioned with destroying buildings and such, (i.e., not hard to hit) I sincerely doubt that the Wehrmacht would have "wasted" a relatively scarce resource like a night-fighting scope on that type of vehicle when that would have been much more valuable and effective being used on a tank or panzerjaeger?

I would have to agree with you doog,although I thought it was more of a anti tank vehicle instead. But still if it were late into the war then I think it would be safe to say that the Germans wouldn't care about it's designated role and just place Night fighting equipment on the most readily available vehicle regardless of it's job that it was meant to fulfill.

Being that the Brumbarr was an artillery-classed vehicle commissioned with destroying buildings and such, (i.e., not hard to hit) I sincerely doubt that the Wehrmacht would have "wasted" a relatively scarce resource like a night-fighting scope on that type of vehicle when that would have been much more valuable and effective being used on a tank or panzerjaeger?

Brumbar early with zim

Gun Tech

 

I'll try to dig up a few users of the vehicle late in the war, but once again, the Dragon kit is an Early type, which was produced April-May 1943.  I have conflicting references for the other productions runs.  However, a Mid or Late type seems to meet your requirements better

Thats ok for me I don't really care if it's early mid or late production,however if there is a kit of a late production

With molded on zermmit then I would gladly chose that instead.

The Dragon Brumbar with Zimmerit is on sale on the Dragon USA site for half price.  Just picked one up myself.

Hello!

You might find more about who used the Brummbar in this link:

http://www.achtungpanzer.com/sturmpanzer-iv-brummbar-sd-kfz-166.htm

The only command vehicle I saw in pictures was based on a late production Brummbar, it is found at the bottom page of the link.  I believe the Dragon kit you are refering to is based on an Early type, but that doesn't say none were based on it.  I also have that picture in a book, and the left antenna is of the star type, not really seen in the link's picture. 

I'll try to dig up a few users of the vehicle late in the war, but once again, the Dragon kit is an Early type, which was produced April-May 1943.  I have conflicting references for the other productions runs.  However, a Mid or Late type seems to meet your requirements better.

As far as NF capabalities, I have never come accross any reference for it's use with the Brummbar.

Cheers!

Jean-Michel

I wasn't 100% certain about the units, but if you have images of them with Div markings on, no one can argue with that. I knbow there are AM sets out there for certain kits that have NF kit, but i am not aware of any generic sets of the equipment itself. If you are adding NF kit, then in theroy you could give it what ever markings you want as a what if build.

Hmmm thanks for all the info. I know the 116th Pz.div had them I have reference photos of brummbar's with the division mark.

On another note I think it would be cool to have night fighting equipment on it I have seen modelers put NFE on king tigers but never a brummbar, are there any resin accessories You know of? Of course the brummbar could have never have been equipped with NFE but it's an idea.

I'm not 100% certain, but i don't think these vehicles were assigned to Pz Div's. Like certain other vehicles, they were assigned to special units, in this case Sturmpanzerabteilung, which would be sent to where ever they were needed.

Regards the command version, my guess is they would have the Star antenna and a normal 2m antenna, this was the norm for command vehicles.

I don't have any of these in the stash yet, i am currently in 2 minds as to whether to go for the Dragon or tristar kits. But i don't see this being any different to other dragon kits from the period. What kit number is the one you have.