DAK RAL 8000 confusion

I would like to throw my shilling into the mix here if I may.

Mig and AK have a scale effect policy for their paints so what they put out IS NOT RAL correct.

If youo use Vallejo Model Air they produce actual chipset correct paints. The German OEM paint industry throughout the war were able to produce paints for the military with a maximum of +/- 10% variance from the chipset values.

For RAL 8000 the colour is 71.272.

Also, Dunkelgelb apart from the first shade from February to August 1943 was not Dark Yellow (translation). The first shade was named Dunkelgelb nack muster (dark yellow after pattern and did not have the RAL 7028 number. When the colour finally went into the RAL shade book the colour was completly different due to feedback from the front line.

Panzer colours. Original shades from OEM manufacturer used on my restoration projects. RAL 8000 bottom Row, 2nd from left.

Our chapter entry for this years Nats was the DAK. I was supposed to build a Kettenkrad towing a field kitchen. I asked him what color to use, he said RAL 8000. Since it was his build, I gathered together several versions of RAL 8000, Model Master, Vallejo, a really weird Humbrol match, and a couple of others. I shot some test strips over Tamiya's Panzer Gray rattle can and he chose the Vallejo. Be forewarned, if you shoot it over Panzer gray, it will develop a greenish cast because of the blue in the gray.

It's not that green in real life, but it is darker than Dunkelgelb.  The Mig version looks way too brown.

The ratio expressed is not for mixing purposses.   It rather describes the amount the second colour is applied over top in form of shapes, blotches, etc. and should cover one third of the vehicle surface.  So the first colour is applied overall (RAL 8000), followed by camou shapes (RAL 7008).  Same idea for the second set of paints - RAL 8020 is the overall vehicle colour, with camou shapes applied with RAL 7027, and this would cover 1/3 of the vehicle's surface.

I suppose it's possible in the field there may have been some confusion in application, or even mixing of two different colours due to shortages, but I've not seen any official documentation concerning this.

regards,

Jack

Hi Bish,

This was very helpful, thank you. My understanding is that the paint ratio's for 'early RAL 8020' were 2/3 RAL 8000 - 1/3 RAL 7008. Do you know if this is correct or was it just  a 50/50 blend?

Do you know if there were any ratio's with 'later RAL 8020'  (RAL 8020 / RAL 7027)? 

Kind Regards

Don't forget that lighting will affect how the color looks On here. Unless they are side by side in the same shot, the photo can be deceiving. Direct sunlight, indirect sunlight, fluorescent lightin, and incandescent lighting, will each give a different appearance to the exact same item. Add in flash photography and your results will differ again.

Nice job on your Panzer,it's really interesting the different manufacturers takes on the same color.Here is a shot of my Tunisian Tiger and Modelmaster's take on 8000/7008

Don't want to hijack your thread on your very nice build,just showing how different their take is.

Not to mention that if you're planning on weathering the little beast, the exact shade will be altered. The base coat is only a starting point.

hmm, I'm not sure what to say.

That looks very grey brown to me, but lighting and digital cameras can alter things...  but if you are happy with it, that is what counts.  I just hope the bottles haven't been mislabelled, as AK Interactive has had some problems in that respect:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbwuq9q3VyA

---------------------------------------

regards,

Jack

So here are a couple of pictures of the tank in Mig's version of RLM 8000.

In looking at the color on my monitor, it looks a little darker than "real life".  I do like it, and decided against adding the second color in the tropen scheme.  Unfortunately, my workstation is in my basement in a corner, and that corner is having moisture issues.  A contractor is coming on Monday, and I needed to clear off the bench, and possibly re-construct it. 

Thanks for looking,

Dman

Good to see your up and running. Just grab what time you can.

Looks good so far, totally get bench time dilemma, i too have several kits that need attention, I'm just not sure where to start LOL. 

An hour here and there of bench time is all that you'll need for this build. It's a quick simple kit to tackle.

Bish

 

armornut

Danke schoen Her Bish. Looks like we got this gentleman on his way to the dark side. (insert maniacal laughter here). Thanks also to all y'all who chimed in,  MCF please post pix when ya get the ball rolling. Happy modeling good sir.

 

 

 

 

Herzlich willkommen.

Ye, deffo post pics. It doesn't count unless we see evidence.

 

Finally...Finally got some bench time, so here is the photographic evidence that this project has actually been started.  Paints should be coming this week, so if I can get some more time, you will see some progress.  Bench time is a big issue for me.  I can get an hour here and there, but getting more than that is tough.  Anyway, enough whining.  Here is the pic:

Thanks for all the posts and interest.  I have an FW 190 that has been sitting for a bit, and that needs attention as well.

In my own defense for the crime of blurting out nonsense, I would like to say that these relics travel around the world far to easily for a multi-ton machine that hasn't run in 75 years. Below is the blurry photo I had in mind when I thought there was a Pz II at the Wheatcroft Collection, years later I found the high-resolution photos I just posted, thinking they were taken at Wheatcroft of an unrestored tank, due to the markings and rust. (Although I remembered seeing this photo, I had long forgotten the text);

http://www.network54.com/Forum/47211/thread/1169063137/The+Wheatcroft+Collection

Note the text states the Panzer II is from Munster, (from APG to Munster, via Trier for repairs?) on it's way back to APG, (2007). So...is it the same vehicle as the one at Ft Benning? Note this has the full length front fenders, not so on the Ft. Benning / ex-APD. Are people are adding / removing the fenders at different times?

The Wheatcroft Collection has a number of vehicles in various states of preservation, often with obscure histories. I know that museums like Munster, Sinsheim, Koblenz, the former APG, Saumur and others swap these vehicles around, so it's not always easy to know what you are looking at, all the time.   Blurry photos + 10 years = blurry memories.

Ixion

Glad my imput wasn't a total loss. I usually to to make sure and double-check my references before I say something totally stupid, so much for winging it.

The trough is the antenna trough, used to store the antenna when not in use, it is made of wood.

While it probably isn't worth spending too much time trying to improve this kit, one easy thing you might add is the perforated heat shield on the muffler;

While not exactly to scale, simply cutting a piece of PE mesh to fit will do the job.

 

No friend, I was just thrilled at the prospect of a Panzer in storage somewhere in "as is" condition somewhere... now knowing it was part of a US Army collection and how things in those cleections are not usually kept historically accurate is just another day.

ManCityFan

 

Ixion

My bad, sorry, this isn't what I thought it was. I thought this was a Wheatcroft Collection vehicle. I forgot I even had the photos and I had to go back and look it up. This is the ex-Aberdeen vehicle, it currently resides at the National Armor and Cavalry Heritage Foundation at Fort Benning, Georgia. and yes, it's seen considerable work over the years;

http://www.armorfortheages.com/MilitaryVehicles/PzKpfwII/PzKpfwII.html

 Gotta quit trusting my memory and double check my sources before inserting my foot into my mouth. 

 

 

 

 

Restored or not, that site is fantastic.  May not give me the exact paint color, but gives a nice reference in terms of whether or not the kit is accurate.  Many thanks for the link.  One question, does anyone know what the metal trough looking thing on the left side of the tank is?

 

Glad my imput wasn't a total loss. I usually to to make sure and double-check my references before I say something totally stupid, so much for winging it.

The trough is the antenna trough, used to store the antenna when not in use, it is made of wood.

While it probably isn't worth spending too much time trying to improve this kit, one easy thing you might add is the perforated heat shield on the muffler;

While not exactly to scale, simply cutting a piece of PE mesh to fit will do the job.

Ixion

My bad, sorry, this isn't what I thought it was. I thought this was a Wheatcroft Collection vehicle. I forgot I even had the photos and I had to go back and look it up. This is the ex-Aberdeen vehicle, it currently resides at the National Armor and Cavalry Heritage Foundation at Fort Benning, Georgia. and yes, it's seen considerable work over the years;

http://www.armorfortheages.com/MilitaryVehicles/PzKpfwII/PzKpfwII.html

 Gotta quit trusting my memory and double check my sources before inserting my foot into my mouth. 

 

Restored or not, that site is fantastic.  May not give me the exact paint color, but gives a nice reference in terms of whether or not the kit is accurate.  Many thanks for the link.  One question, does anyone know what the metal trough looking thing on the left side of the tank is?

I'm sorry too, that would of been cool to see a DAK vehicle in original paint. 

Wonder if that open hatch with the grey underside is original?

regards,

Jack

My bad, sorry, this isn't what I thought it was. I thought this was a Wheatcroft Collection vehicle. I forgot I even had the photos and I had to go back and look it up. This is the ex-Aberdeen vehicle, it currently resides at the National Armor and Cavalry Heritage Foundation at Fort Benning, Georgia. and yes, it's seen considerable work over the years;

http://www.armorfortheages.com/MilitaryVehicles/PzKpfwII/PzKpfwII.html

 Gotta quit trusting my memory and double check my sources before inserting my foot into my mouth. 

The 'unrestored' panzer II looks to be the one here at National Armor and Cavalry Museum, Fort Benning, GA:

http://the.shadock.free.fr/Surviving_Panzer_II.pdf

Going by the caption there, it actually might be the panzer in Tunisia photo I had linked that was captured by Americans.  It also states it was repainted before it was shipped over to the States.  I'd say we are seeing another repaint in museum form, sat outside, hence all the rust streaks.

regards,

Jack

Is that Mk.II really unrestored?  And where has it been kept? Any history on that particula machine?

I forgot I had these photos. An unrestored Ausf F from 15th Panzer Div. in overall RAL 8020. Note 15th Pz. symbol next to right tow hook.

Note the Panzer Grey on the insides of the engine hatches and the area behind the missing muffler, exhaust pipe flange area, driver's visor and the starter crank hole. Surprised to see even the convoy light lenses are still intact!

Check out the Tiger at Bovington Museum, they have it painted 7008 over 8000. There are plenty of colour photos on the Web.

David

CapnMac82

 

Bish

Do you guys really spell Grey with an a. Well i never spotted that.

 

 

There's a mnemonic:  "England withan 'e'; American with an 'a.'" to remember the spelling.

Our Canadian neighbors will append "colour" to keep it clear (the usof the Norman spelling of the ö dipthong as "ou" is consistant all acrss Canada).

 

Thanks. I knew about the U, can't miss that one on here, but didn't know about the a and e.

disastermaster

 

ManCityFan

You may be wondering why I am worrying about a $10 model, but want to set up good habits early by doing research and asking questions.

 

 

                                          
A great strategy that will serve you well in more expensive builds.
                                               

                                                  

 

Yep, better to get these things sorted on a $10 model than a $70 one.