question about firing ports? on the elephant

armornut wrote:

I hope i dont make anybody mad or get in trouble for this but a forum user and participant by the handle of espin1 has a link or web site for the elephant that is at aberdeen proving ground in maryland,my apologize if this is a breech of edict the last thing i want to do is overwhelm someones computer without clearing it with them first.(feels kinda like giving a phone number out when it wasn't supposed to be out).perhaps espin1 will contact you on the forums and it will be no harm no foul

I don't mind at all amigos, that's why I have that stuff out there on my website for all of us to enjoy.  My website is horribly out of date though, and I need to upload my B-17G pics there as well.  I'll get around to updating the site soon though.   

You can see the Elefant pics here. 

http://www.espins.info/aberdeen.htm

These were taken at the Aberdeen Proving Grounds in Aberdeen Maryland.  The poor Elefant is just rotting away in a field about a half mile from the museum.... tragic.  There are a lot of armor pics on this page, the Elefant Pics are down at the bottom. 

detailfreak wrote:

i wonder if its for sale!what a conversation piece.

That monster would look GREAT in my front yard!    It's the last surviving Elefant in the world.  Although there is a Ferdinand at a Museum near Moscow.

Here are a few pics which might prove helpful to you with regard to the pistol ports.  I have a lot of Elefant reference material, so if you need a hand with anything let me know.  It's one of my favorite armored vehicles!    A few of these shots are Ferdinands.  The surviving 48 Ferdinands from the battle of Kursk (total of 90 produced) were converted to Elefants after the battle.  The modifications included: Zimmerit, a bow machine gun, revised mantlet shield/plate and a comanders cupola. 

detailfreak wrote:

from the looks of the photos the ferdinands had a rather bad time of it.this gives me an idea.i have 2 other ferdinand/elefant kits and tamiyas old tiger ,mix the two and voila prototype tiger.

Ya, the Ferdi's had a tough time at Kursk, mostly because they weren't used in their intended role.  The strength of the Ferdinand/Elefant is that insane 88mm ultra long barreled gun that could knock out any tank even at extreme ranges. 

They had many weaknesses.  There was no bow machine gun.  It was extremely heavy.  The suspension was poorly designed, which made for very high ground pressure.  The suspension could barely handle the vehicles weight even on perfect ground.  Because of the way the suspension was designed, the Ferdinand/Elefant was highly susceptible to damage from mines.  All you had to do was knock out one road wheel and the tank was stranded.  The design was complicated.  The engine worked in conjunction with an electric motor which is what directly drove the drive wheels.  This added even more weight, and used up a lot of precious copper. 

They should have been deployed as "stand off" tank killers.  Instead, they were used right at the tip of the spear.  They were slow, so they lagged a bit behind and were highly vulnerable to infantry attacks (hence the addition of the bow machine gun on the Elefant).  All you had to do was knock out a road wheel and the tank was immobile.  They were so heavy it would take up to 6 heavy tow vehicles to even attempt to move one, and that was assuming they got the road wheel problem fixed first! 

There is much debate on whether or not it was a succesful design.  I think the results are mixed.  They managed to knock out a ridiculous number of enemy tanks, but operationally they required too many resources to keep in the field. 

espins1 wrote:

detailfreak wrote: from the looks of the photos the ferdinands had a rather bad time of it.this gives me an idea.i have 2 other ferdinand/elefant kits and tamiyas old tiger ,mix the two and voila prototype tiger. Ya, the Ferdi's had a tough time at Kursk, mostly because they weren't used in their intended role.  The strength of the Ferdinand/Elefant is that insane 88mm ultra long barreled gun that could knock out any tank even at extreme ranges.  They had many weaknesses.  There was no bow machine gun.  It was extremely heavy.  The suspension was poorly designed, which made for very high ground pressure.  The suspension could barely handle the vehicles weight even on perfect ground.  Because of the way the suspension was designed, the Ferdinand/Elefant was highly susceptible to damage from mines.  All you had to do was knock out one road wheel and the tank was stranded.  The design was complicated.  The engine worked in conjunction with an electric motor which is what directly drove the drive wheels.  This added even more weight, and used up a lot of precious copper.  They should have been deployed as "stand off" tank killers.  Instead, they were used right at the tip of the spear.  They were slow, so they lagged a bit behind and were highly vulnerable to infantry attacks (hence the addition of the bow machine gun on the Elefant).  All you had to do was knock out a road wheel and the tank was immobile.  They were so heavy it would take up to 6 heavy tow vehicles to even attempt to move one, and that was assuming they got the road wheel problem fixed first!  There is much debate on whether or not it was a succesful design.  I think the results are mixed.  They managed to knock out a ridiculous number of enemy tanks, but operationally they required too many resources to keep in the field.

You nailed it my friend. They should have supported and not spearheaded. The lethal 88mm was wasted in a close support role where the Ferdy's were picked off by the Russian infantry.

I think the biggest factor in their mis-use was two-fold.  Hitler, in his usual, bizarre logic, envisioned the Ferdinand as a "Ramm Panzer" or breakthrough tank, a role it was clearly unsuited to perform.  Also, the commanders in the field had never used them in battle before, so didn't understand their strengths and weaknesses.

Back to the topic at hand, what are you planning on using for the chains?  I can't wait to see some build pics! 

Just thought I'd share my Ferdinand since we're on the subject..

Espins1, I gotta thank you for that link to your Aberdeen site--brought back LOTS of great memories! I went there in the late 80's (when the Tigers were still there!) and video'd the whole thing. I loved it, and am planning to return soon.

Judging from the look of the scrubbed primer in some of the shots it looks like they're maybe planning to repaint some of the panzers? I'm also pleased to see that they've moved the MBT70 out onto the road--when I was there it was in the warehouse. I had written before I went there to the Director of the museum and got a small tour of the warehouse, and they had some cool stuff still hidden away as I remember it; some 234-series armored cars, and I think possibly a Sturmtiger???

I'm quite distressed about the state/fate of the Elefant! I wonder what the heck they've got it out there for? Did you make inquiries? I'd love to know what plans they have for it? Maybe some restoration?--being that it's the only one left in the world...

Another question, if you'll indulge me: what the HECK is photo #0022?!?! I can't figure that one out! 

BTW Roo, that zimm application is looking good, and the pistol port thing should look pretty cool...! 

thanks guys. i like reading all you guys post anyway. keeps me on track and i learn from it. the chains are kit provided. i have the DML premium edition, so i guess for the extra money i spent on it, dragon was kind enough to supply me some extra goodies the only pics i have of it right now are in the liberation of western europe GB. a side shot, rear shot, and thats basically it. its almost complete in the building stage. just trying to put together the PE side fenders which are a real pain. after all the glue has hardeded, i'll probably give it a coat of primer, and paint the inside areas that will show with the open hatches. i probably won't go farther than that tonight, as i want to give you guys a before and after shot of the painting. all of the zimmerit is hand applied, and i think i did alot better with the magic tracks than i did with the king tiger, although i did make a nice recovery with it. thanks for all the info guys, and that site rocks espins. i'll keep you posted

rooster

Doog, sweet build!

the doog wrote:

Espins1, I gotta thank you for that link to your Aberdeen site--brought back LOTS of great memories! I went there in the late 80's (when the Tigers were still there!) and video'd the whole thing. I loved it, and am planning to return soon. Judging from the look of the scrubbed primer in some of the shots it looks like they're maybe planning to repaint some of the panzers? I'm also pleased to see that they've moved the MBT70 out onto the road--when I was there it was in the warehouse. I had written before I went there to the Director of the museum and got a small tour of the warehouse, and they had some cool stuff still hidden away as I remember it; some 234-series armored cars, and I think possibly a Sturmtiger??? I'm quite distressed about the state/fate of the Elefant! I wonder what the heck they've got it out there for? Did you make inquiries? I'd love to know what plans they have for it? Maybe some restoration?--being that it's the only one left in the world... Another question, if you'll indulge me: what the HECK is photo #0022?!?! I can't figure that one out!  BTW Roo, that zimm application is looking good, and the pistol port thing should look pretty cool...!

Hey Doog, Let's see.  I'm not really up on my French tanks, but I believe pic 0022 might be an AMX13?  It looks like a "shoot and scoot" type weapon., small turret, light, fast.

I had asked what the deal was on their Elefant and this is what I remember.  Apparently a private collector bought the Elefant.  As you know they are EXTREMELY heavy.  It was transported down to where the rail spur is (maybe 1/4 to 1/2 mile from the museum).  One of the tow cables broke and if I remember correctly it's still laying in the grass.  You can see from the photos that they then attempted to remove the upper superstructure as the bolts have been removed.  Apparently even the superstructure was too heavy to lift by crane so I guess they just gave up.   It's been sitting out there rotting ever since. 

Seeing the Elefant, forgotten and neglected really bummed me out.  I can't believe they're treating such a unique piece of history like that.  It needs to be restored and in a museum.  Think of the story that Elefant tells, it was at the Battle of Kursk!  It survived!  It went on to be modified from a Ferdinand to an Elefant and continued to fight until it was finally captured. 

I wish I could find out more as I'd like to work with everyone and anyone who is interested in helping to make sure it gets put into a museum and restored.  If anyone else has anymore concrete information as to who owns it, or what's being done with it, I'd sure like to know.  Surely, if possible, we might be able to rally all of our armor buddies on all the forums, and with their connections do something to rectify the situation. 

Nice work on the Ferdinand Doog. 

Also, I'm looking forward to watching your build Chris, as the Elefant is so near and dear to my heart.