Question about engine wiring

Doog-Most cars of that era had the coil mounted on the firewall.  And I've not found a lot of car models that had the coil included.  Aftermarket would be an option, but it shouldn't be too hard to make one out of some round spruce.

Also, please continue to post pics of your build.  I'm thinking of doing one of the AMT Modified cars for the Weekend Madness GB here in a couple of weeks.  

btw-the engine looks great.  Much better than I had thought the AMT kit engine would.  Of course, the weathering that you did makes a big difference.

Looks like a small block Chevy to me, though why it has the cast iron "rams horn" exhaust is a good question. I would have thought tube headers would be more appropriate.

Part 36 doesn't look like a coil to me, more like an oil filler or breather tube. The coil was commonly mounted to the rear of the engine block or the firewall. My guess on a modified would be the fire wall.

Here's an aftermarket ignition coil, most OEM ones were plain black:

Thanks, guys---well that explains a lot, then! I never would have known that!

Here's the firewall, Greg--some detail there, but not much? Can you see where to plug in that wire? Is part #48 the coil attachment?

By the way, I do plan on weathering the car a bit, but not going crazy with it. I remember that these cars got pretty dirty, but they got repaired pretty quickly, so you didn't see them in a state of disrepair too much. I used to go see them a lot when I was younger.

Thanks, Bob; the engine is pretty clean so far. I've still got some work to do to it, but I'm going to keep it relatively clean.

This kit is pretty rudimentary; a lot of clean-up required on all the numerous struts and braces of the body. Lotsa seam lines to clean up. The body is one piece, with the hood over the engine separate; two choices for the hood there, which is nice.

Right now I don't have a whole lot to show yet; just got the engine 3/4 finished. I'll post some photos when I get something that looks like a car. lol.

Bill, thanks for that photo--that'll be a snap to build! By the way, I think that this does have "tube headers"--like, a 4-tube exhaust pipe melding into one bigger tube on the outside of the car? It looks pretty cool.

With it being a race car, it might be possible that the coil would have been mounted inside the car. I don't know about vintage racers, but now-a-days, it's common to mount anything you can inside the car. It keeps the engine compartment clutter free, protects components from unnecessary dirt and water, and moves some of the weight rearward.....every little bit helps!

Doog - I scratch built one for my Mustang from a round toothpick. I sanded the toothpick smooth, sawed out a 4 mm section for the coil body and near the pointed tip of the toothpick I sawed off another section 1 mm for the tapered plug in and glued it on. I drilled it out a hole for the wire and painted it.

Most coils use to have a tin bracket that was attached by a intake manifold bolt. 

the doog wrote:

Bill, thanks for that photo--that'll be a snap to build! By the way, I think that this does have "tube headers"--like, a 4-tube exhaust pipe melding into one bigger tube on the outside of the car? It looks pretty cool.

Yeah, looking over the pic again, I realize that I'm just seeing the mounting points for the exhaust manifolds, and not the manifolds themselves. Guess I really do need those glasses that blob that sounds like my wife keeps saying I need!

And, I mean blob in the nicest possible way! 

Mark, that would make sense....I just don't know what I should do with that *report me* wire!

Sean--nice, and good photo, too! I've seen them there on motors with the distributor up front there; I guess I'm going to just "wing it" and make one and attach it to the firewall, since that seems plauisble, and the more detail, the better, right?

Greg, thanks for the help, and the link---that's a good site for finding what stuff looks like; I appreciate the link!

Thanks again, all! I'll post pics when I get some progress here...

Doog, that part #36 was a magneto - essentially same thing as a distributor, so you can toss it with a clear conscience.

Some engine types have the gearing to run the distributor on the back and some have it on the front, so you have just switched your engine type.  No tremendous big deal.

Rick

agentg wrote:

Karl, Part 38 is a brake cylinder, I think. You should just scratch a coil and mount it on the firewall. Also let me point out that the alternator represented on your car is suspended by a bar from the engine, not just hanging in space as is commom in most model cars. I usually just bend a piece of wire, paint it the color of the block and call it good.

Karl, here is a pic of a small block Chevy engine, you can see the bar holding the alternator, as well as the oil filler tube I alluded to earlier, as well as the rams horn manifolds I thought I saw!:

Ahhhh, I see 'em now, Bill! COOOOL!

Thanks, that certainly makes things MUCH clearer now!Thanks for posting that!!

I don't know what I'd do without your guys! (I'd build crappier car models, for one thing!

the doog wrote:

Thanks, guys---well that explains a lot, then! I never would have known that! Here's the firewall, Greg--some detail there, but not much? Can you see where to plug in that wire? Is part #48 the coil attachment?   By the way, I do plan on weathering the car a bit, but not going crazy with it. I remember that these cars got pretty dirty, but they got repaired pretty quickly, so you didn't see them in a state of disrepair too much. I used to go see them a lot when I was younger. Thanks, Bob; the engine is pretty clean so far. I've still got some work to do to it, but I'm going to keep it relatively clean. This kit is pretty rudimentary; a lot of clean-up required on all the numerous struts and braces of the body. Lotsa seam lines to clean up. The body is one piece, with the hood over the engine separate; two choices for the hood there, which is nice. Right now I don't have a whole lot to show yet; just got the engine 3/4 finished. I'll post some photos when I get something that looks like a car. lol. Bill, thanks for that photo--that'll be a snap to build! By the way, I think that this does have "tube headers"--like, a 4-tube exhaust pipe melding into one bigger tube on the outside of the car? It looks pretty cool.

detailfreak wrote:

Doog,you realize of course that is not a race engine configuration.Although a great photo of an early chevrolet smallblock.Please note that it is equiped with a generator and not an alternator.

Um, yeah, I should have mentioned that. It was the first (and best) pic I could find that showed the generator/alternator mount AND the filler tube. Regardless of it being a generator, they mount in much the same way.

Karl, looks like they left the coil out of the kit. Just scratch one like the pic I showed earlier and mount it sideways at the back of the engine. IIRC the connection point is to the right if you are facing the engine from the front. Or mount it on the firewall. The ignition coil wire should be fairly short, maybe 18" long or 3/4" at 1:24 scale.

Or you can upgrade to a "racing" coil like this one and bolt it to the firewall:

Greg, Jeebus, and Bill, thanks for the added info.

Bill, that "upgraded part" actually looks like something on the firewall already. There's a box there with two wires coming out of it. I painted the wires red and black like on that part photo. Now I'm wondering what the heck to do with that extra wire? 

Doog, if the box on the firewall is indeed a coil then the two wires (small I assume) are probably the coil primary wires (+ and -). An ignition coil has a primary and secondary side. The primary has very few windings and is connected to a switched 12V line from the ignition switch and the secondary has a zillion windings that step the primary voltage up to a much higher voltage, 40K or 50K volts is not uncommon. The heavier insulated wire carries that higher voltage to the distributor which routes that high voltage to the plugs.This higher voltage allows the plugs to properly ignite the fuel air mixture in the cylinders.  A very simplified explanation that leaves out lots of parts. They actually use coils for a similar purpose in your guitar amps. They step up a lower voltage to a much higher one to give those tubes the high power they need to drive those big speaker cabinets. The header thingies on the engine actually involve quite a bit of science when designed properly. They usually attempt to maintain equal tube length from the exhaust port on the head down to the "collector" where all four tubes merge into one. These tubes are "tuned" to help extract the exhaust gases more efficiently and help the engine "breath better" thus making more power. Longer tubes generally translate into more low end torque. They play some of the same games with length and diameters on your single tube "braap machine" to try and get a little less "peaky" performance. Sorry for droning on, just interesting stuff to me. And please anybody feel free to correct me if I have some details wrong. By the way as usual it looks like it is going to be a cool model, thanks for the pics.  

Thanks again, guys, for all the info and suggestions!

Gil, that was some interesting info. I did not know that! All I know about car engines is that you put gas in them and hopefully they go when you press that pedal-thing in the cab!

Continuation of this thread can be found in the updated "AMT '34 Early Ford Modified"!

Part #36 is a magneto, like has been discussed. There are no coils involved with a magneto ignition system. The mag makes it's own juice for firing the spark plugs. Here is a link to Vertex Magnetos.

 http://www.taylorvertex.com/Vertex/pdfs/taylorVertex.pdf

Generally, the wires come out of the side and go to the plugs. Some mags have wires coming from the top. Just check out the catalog. That extra wire on your distributor will need to go to a coil which can be mounted on the firewall or on the engine near the distributor. Had you used the kit part, you would have only needed 8 wires (one to each plug).

Rich

The engine in the kit is a Ford, there is no coil because the kit is set up to run a magneto...

The piece you tossed in your opening statement was the magneto..

Magneto ignitions do not have a coil

a race car with a magneto ignition, would usually be push started.. would not have generator , starter, or likely a battery, because the mag makes it's own electricity....

Jim A.

autocar1953 wrote:

The engine in the kit is a Ford, there is no coil because the kit is set up to run a magneto... The piece you tossed in your opening statement was the magneto.. Magneto ignitions do not have a coil a race car with a magneto ignition, would usually be push started.. would not have generator , starter, or likely a battery, because the mag makes it's own electricity....   Jim A.

This is great informaion to know for the next build! I was wondering why all my reference photos didn't show a coil?

Now I know! Thanks again!

autocar1953 wrote:

The engine in the kit is a Ford, there is no coil because the kit is set up to run a magneto... The piece you tossed in your opening statement was the magneto.. Magneto ignitions do not have a coil a race car with a magneto ignition, would usually be push started.. would not have generator , starter, or likely a battery, because the mag makes it's own electricity....   Jim A.

Respectfully,

 There hasn't been a Ford V8 with a rear mount distributor since the 292/312 of the fifties and between the intake manifold and valve covers of the model engine- that isn't one. But, the instructions called for the magneto to go up front and the oil filler to go in the rear-like a Chevy.

 But oddly, while small block Chevies do have four valve cover retaining bolts, a rear mount distributor, an oil filler tube (early ones) like the kit pieces, it wouldn't have an oil filter mount in that location or a front sump oil pan. The water pump is distinctive in how it mounts as well. BTW-IMHO, those valve covers "say" Weiand, an aftermarket company.

 That would appear to be a wildly innacurate engine at the very least?

Have fun Doog!

MrSquid2U wrote:

autocar1953 wrote: The engine in the kit is a Ford, there is no coil because the kit is set up to run a magneto... The piece you tossed in your opening statement was the magneto.. Magneto ignitions do not have a coil a race car with a magneto ignition, would usually be push started.. would not have generator , starter, or likely a battery, because the mag makes it's own electricity....   Jim A.     Respectfully,  There hasn't been a Ford V8 with a rear mount distributor since the 292/312 of the fifties and between the intake manifold and valve covers of the model engine- that isn't one. But, the instructions called for the magneto to go up front and the oil filler to go in the rear-like a Chevy.  But oddly, while small block Chevies do have four valve cover retaining bolts, a rear mount distributor, an oil filler tube (early ones) like the kit pieces, it wouldn't have an oil filter mount in that location or a front sump oil pan. The water pump is distinctive in how it mounts as well. BTW-IMHO, those valve covers "say" Weiand, an aftermarket company.  That would appear to be a wildly innacurate engine at the very least?     Have fun Doog!

the doog wrote:

MrSquid2U wrote:  autocar1953 wrote: The engine in the kit is a Ford, there is no coil because the kit is set up to run a magneto... The piece you tossed in your opening statement was the magneto.. Magneto ignitions do not have a coil a race car with a magneto ignition, would usually be push started.. would not have generator , starter, or likely a battery, because the mag makes it's own electricity....   Jim A.     Respectfully,  There hasn't been a Ford V8 with a rear mount distributor since the 292/312 of the fifties and between the intake manifold and valve covers of the model engine- that isn't one. But, the instructions called for the magneto to go up front and the oil filler to go in the rear-like a Chevy.  But oddly, while small block Chevies do have four valve cover retaining bolts, a rear mount distributor, an oil filler tube (early ones) like the kit pieces, it wouldn't have an oil filter mount in that location or a front sump oil pan. The water pump is distinctive in how it mounts as well. BTW-IMHO, those valve covers "say" Weiand, an aftermarket company.  That would appear to be a wildly innacurate engine at the very least?     Have fun Doog! Very interesting observations, MR. Squid! A great discussion here--thanks!!!

Um,

 But I should have proofread my words! I meant to say: That while the instructions appear to call for a filler tube upfront and distributor in the rear- that would equal a Chevy- yet the front sump oil pan and oil filter location, do not. My bad, to add confusion to a "mystery".